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I just wanted to draw attention to this article I read on spikeybits: https://spikeybits.com/2019/09/regular-space-marines-40ks-next-thunder-warriors.html

To summarize: Spikeybits brings up the book “Of Honour and Iron”, they talk about the comparisons between Space Marines replacing Thunder warriors, and now Primaris Marines replacing Space Marines. Gabriel Seth is also brought up because he feels like the Primaris have a darker existence. He feels that Chapters who accept the Primaris will become “Ultramarines in red armor”. Spikeybits also points out special characters becoming Primaris Marines and the sudden lack of stratagems for old marine vehicles like the predator and vindicator.

Problem with this claim is that the old Marines can upgrade via the Rubricon. Thunder Warriors were straight up killed off instead.

So while the old guard is going away, it's because they're upgrading, not because they're being killed off and replaced.

Also Seth's complaint was about the Ultima Founding Primaris. Those who cross the Rubricon or are made from scratch by the chapter tie more closely to that chapter's nature.

I am not going to visit SpikeyBits because I don't think they are all that good a source for...well anything.

I am partly aware of the conversation between Seth and Dante that you are talking about. If I remember correctly, Seth does express doubts to Dante about RG's gifts to the Blood Angels after the near destruction of Baal including the Ultramarines in Red Armor comment. Dante is not nearly so convinced of this and I believe, I haven't read it only had it explained to me, that by the end Seth and soften his position as well.

As for the new codex, there is still bunch of stratagems that are unusable to Primaris as well as a few generic vehicle ones. Hardly something to get all Chicken Little about.

This honestly sounds like stirring the pot from a site well known for doing that to generate internet traffic.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Problem with this claim is that the old Marines can upgrade via the Rubricon. Thunder Warriors were straight up killed off instead.

So while the old guard is going away, it's because they're upgrading, not because they're being killed off and replaced.

Also Seth's complaint was about the Ultima Founding Primaris. Those who cross the Rubricon or are made from scratch by the chapter tie more closely to that chapter's nature.

Whilst they align more closely with their chapter when made outside of the Ultima founding, I was under the impression that the Sanguinian Primaris don't suffer the thirst. Which is what keeps the chapters of the blood so close, and probably what Seth is complaining about.

 Beersarius Drawl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Problem with this claim is that the old Marines can upgrade via the Rubricon. Thunder Warriors were straight up killed off instead.

So while the old guard is going away, it's because they're upgrading, not because they're being killed off and replaced.

Also Seth's complaint was about the Ultima Founding Primaris. Those who cross the Rubricon or are made from scratch by the chapter tie more closely to that chapter's nature.

Whilst they align more closely with their chapter when made outside of the Ultima founding, I was under the impression that the Sanguinian Primaris don't suffer the thirst. Which is what keeps the chapters of the blood so close, and probably what Seth is complaining about.

NOPE. They -do- have the Red Thirst (Cawl calls it a feature, not a bug and left it in), they just don't currently get the Black Rage. But seeing as the Primaris Space Wolves still have the Wulfen curse it looks to be a matter of time (namely until GW makes an upgrade sprue for Primaris Death Company).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Beersarius Drawl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Problem with this claim is that the old Marines can upgrade via the Rubricon. Thunder Warriors were straight up killed off instead.

So while the old guard is going away, it's because they're upgrading, not because they're being killed off and replaced.

Also Seth's complaint was about the Ultima Founding Primaris. Those who cross the Rubricon or are made from scratch by the chapter tie more closely to that chapter's nature.

Whilst they align more closely with their chapter when made outside of the Ultima founding, I was under the impression that the Sanguinian Primaris don't suffer the thirst. Which is what keeps the chapters of the blood so close, and probably what Seth is complaining about.

NOPE. They -do- have the Red Thirst (Cawl calls it a feature, not a bug and left it in), they just don't currently get the Black Rage. But seeing as the Primaris Space Wolves still have the Wulfen curse it looks to be a matter of time (namely until GW makes an upgrade sprue for Primaris Death Company).

Yeah, I think the lack of Black Rage does have more to do with them not having a model kit that represents it more than Primaris being immune. I am pretty sure when GW gets around to it, Boom!, Primaris with Black Rage and Death Company hawkbigboys.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

NOPE. They -do- have the Red Thirst (Cawl calls it a feature, not a bug and left it in), they just don't currently get the Black Rage. But seeing as the Primaris Space Wolves still have the Wulfen curse it looks to be a matter of time (namely until GW makes an upgrade sprue for Primaris Death Company).

Ahhh the rage not the thirst. I knew it was one of them.

The quoted text

It's the Iron Warriors talking trash and likely not knowing that the Astartes can be upgraded.

Spikey bits is just click bait for 40k. I got banned from their comment section by pointing out that "A new space marine sprue" being spotted was just Warhammer community rumor engine post and that it's pretty open to interpretation

 fraser1191 wrote:
Spikey bits is just click bait for 40k. I got banned from their comment section by pointing out that "A new space marine sprue" being spotted was just Warhammer community rumor engine post and that it's pretty open to interpretation

Click bait, use of people's personal army images without permission or credit, and a habit of promoting recasting on their podcast.

Let's not even get into the "Next Level Painting" that treats tabletop painting like mindblowing Golden Daemon winning techniques that no one knows about.

Basically if Spikey Bits has posted it, it's safe to say it's worth ignoring or finding the real source on the leaks and giving them the credit instead.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Spikey bits is just click bait for 40k. I got banned from their comment section by pointing out that "A new space marine sprue" being spotted was just Warhammer community rumor engine post and that it's pretty open to interpretation

Click bait, use of people's personal army images without permission or credit, and a habit of promoting recasting on their podcast.

Let's not even get into the "Next Level Painting" that treats tabletop painting like mindblowing Golden Daemon winning techniques that no one knows about.

Basically if Spikey Bits has posted it, it's safe to say it's worth ignoring or finding the real source on the leaks and giving them the credit instead.

Ha yeah I remember during gathering storm they basically had a new article everyday repeating the same thing but with little changes. After the gathering storm I stopped paying attention to them.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
use of people's personal army images without permission or credit

Yeah, I was done with them when I started spotting some of their articles with my uncredited photos. Surprise!

You know space marines can 'divine' the memories of what they consume? Well they consume the blood of their Primarch. Of course this is going to give them crazy flashbacks to his death in the barge.

Once primaris start drinking the primarch blood they're bound to start being vulnerable to the black rage too!

nareik wrote:
You know space marines can 'divine' the memories of what they consume? Well they consume the blood of their Primarch. Of course this is going to give them crazy flashbacks to his death in the barge.

Once primaris start drinking the primarch blood they're bound to start being vulnerable to the black rage too!

The blood they consume isn't from after their Primarch died. Though it might explain why the different successors all show aspects of their Primarch (such as the artistry of the Blood Angels): those are the aspects their respective chapter gained from his blood.

for those who have not read this article I'll summerize it's points as well as why it's a rediculas one.

Point 1:
A novel compares old Marines to Thunder warriors.

Ok first of all, this is one novel, the author of said Writer, Ian St. Martin, he's not exactly one of BL's longest serving authors (his earliest novel seems to date back to 2018 so he's VERY recent) given that combined with the fact that he lives in Washington DC makes me think he's not likely to know GW's long term Primaris plan.

The second point is a "OHH NOS! THERE IS LESS CLASSIC MARINE STUFF IN THE CODEX BECAUSE LINEBREAKER AND KILL SHOT GOT REMOVED" this is so obviously false it's laughable. Those two strats where.... I'm not gonna say crap because when they worked they where plenty good but they where dependant on having a full 3 preds and vindicators. which let's face it, wasn't exactly seen outside of specificly tailored lists.

Jimbobbyish wrote:The quoted text

Spoiler:

What book is this from?

ClockworkZion wrote:It's the Iron Warriors talking trash and likely not knowing that the Astartes can be upgraded.

Replacement of the Emperor's divine vision by Cawl's blasphemy more like.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It's the Iron Warriors talking trash and likely not knowing that the Astartes can be upgraded.

You speak like you were one of those old Marines on scene when that Iron Warrior said that... tell me, does it comfort you that you think that, that you won’t be replaced?

All space marines will eventually be replaced by Primaris......but not yet.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Jimbobbyish wrote:The quoted text

Spoiler:

What book is this from?

ClockworkZion wrote:It's the Iron Warriors talking trash and likely not knowing that the Astartes can be upgraded.

Replacement of the Emperor's divine vision by Cawl's blasphemy more like.

It's more that Cawl spent 10k years to finish what the Emperor did not because the Big E was rushing to get everything set up for his win condition while the gods where dealing with the upheaval of Slaanesh's birth.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Jimbobbyish wrote:The quoted text

Spoiler:

What book is this from?

ClockworkZion wrote:It's the Iron Warriors talking trash and likely not knowing that the Astartes can be upgraded.

Replacement of the Emperor's divine vision by Cawl's blasphemy more like.

It's more that Cawl spent 10k years to finish what the Emperor did not because the Big E was rushing to get everything set up for his win condition while the gods where dealing with the upheaval of Slaanesh's birth.

Which is weird in itself. Cawl who (at least to my knowledge) lacked any significant influence managed to make Marines +1. Fabulous Bile worked for longer, had access to as many samples as he needed, had significant pull with a massive amount of military forces and got nowhere near as close.

pm713 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Jimbobbyish wrote:The quoted text

Spoiler:

What book is this from?

ClockworkZion wrote:It's the Iron Warriors talking trash and likely not knowing that the Astartes can be upgraded.

Replacement of the Emperor's divine vision by Cawl's blasphemy more like.

It's more that Cawl spent 10k years to finish what the Emperor did not because the Big E was rushing to get everything set up for his win condition while the gods where dealing with the upheaval of Slaanesh's birth.

Which is weird in itself. Cawl who (at least to my knowledge) lacked any significant influence managed to make Marines +1. Fabulous Bile worked for longer, had access to as many samples as he needed, had significant pull with a massive amount of military forces and got nowhere near as close.

Well he did absorb all the knowledge of his teacher, Magos Domina Hester Aspertia Sigma-Sigma, who was a master of soul-merging and cloning. It's likely he may have absorbed the minds of others since his mind is apparently more like an orchestra of individual Cawls each working on something lead by a single though process.

Fluff wise, sorta. They're going to be upgraded. Then, in a few years the IoM will just stop producing that model of Adeptus Astartes.

Real world, yes. In a few years GW will just stop producing that model of Adeptus Astartes.

 Red Marine wrote:
Fluff wise, sorta. They're going to be upgraded. Then, in a few years the IoM will just stop producing that model of Adeptus Astartes.

Real world, yes. In a few years GW will just stop producing that model of Adeptus Astartes.

except that the 8.5 codex makes old marines great still. seems a strange thing to do when you want to phase something out

except that the 8.5 codex makes old marines great still. seems a strange thing to do when you want to phase something out

They be buttering us up.... don’t worry we’re not going to get rid of them look at these cool new rules and reduced points cost... it’s a way to make the senior Marine players calm down a little so they don’t feel their armies are void... Senior Marine players are struggling with Primaris. GW doesn’t want to lose a fan base and hopes Primaris will catch on and these old school cats eventually jump on the bandwagon. In a couple years most players if not all will have upgraded and old Marines will be a thing of the past.

usmcmidn wrote:

except that the 8.5 codex makes old marines great still. seems a strange thing to do when you want to phase something out

They be buttering us up.... don’t worry we’re not going to get rid of them look at these cool new rules and reduced points cost... it’s a way to make the senior Marine players calm down a little so they don’t feel their armies are void... Senior Marine players are struggling with Primaris. GW doesn’t want to lose a fan base and hopes Primaris will catch on and these old school cats eventually jump on the bandwagon. In a couple years most players if not all will have upgraded and old Marines will be a thing of the past.

it's already been a couple of years. people have been saying this since dark imperium came out. until you start to have evidance, stop peddling conspiracy theories.

It makes sense for them to stick around for a while.

new players will initially buy primaris only, see a cool "normal" kit and incorporate it into their army.
existing marine players will buy whichever primaris kits they like to add to existing collections.

GW wins on both fronts.

You'll have HH, Dark Millennium, & post rift to play if they remove them from 40k in some galaxy wide traumatic event.

I like that there are chapters that dont accept them, use them in a careless way, etc...

 ClockworkZion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Jimbobbyish wrote:The quoted text

Spoiler:

What book is this from?

ClockworkZion wrote:It's the Iron Warriors talking trash and likely not knowing that the Astartes can be upgraded.

Replacement of the Emperor's divine vision by Cawl's blasphemy more like.

It's more that Cawl spent 10k years to finish what the Emperor did not because the Big E was rushing to get everything set up for his win condition while the gods where dealing with the upheaval of Slaanesh's birth.

Which is weird in itself. Cawl who (at least to my knowledge) lacked any significant influence managed to make Marines +1. Fabulous Bile worked for longer, had access to as many samples as he needed, had significant pull with a massive amount of military forces and got nowhere near as close.

Well he did absorb all the knowledge of his teacher, Magos Domina Hester Aspertia Sigma-Sigma, who was a master of soul-merging and cloning. It's likely he may have absorbed the minds of others since his mind is apparently more like an orchestra of individual Cawls each working on something lead by a single though process.

I'm forgetting things then because what I remember was that Hester mainly had combat experience. Although that novel reminds me that Cawl technically swore allegiance to Horus and I really hope someone has a recording of that.

BrianDavion wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:

except that the 8.5 codex makes old marines great still. seems a strange thing to do when you want to phase something out

They be buttering us up.... don’t worry we’re not going to get rid of them look at these cool new rules and reduced points cost... it’s a way to make the senior Marine players calm down a little so they don’t feel their armies are void... Senior Marine players are struggling with Primaris. GW doesn’t want to lose a fan base and hopes Primaris will catch on and these old school cats eventually jump on the bandwagon. In a couple years most players if not all will have upgraded and old Marines will be a thing of the past.

it's already been a couple of years. people have been saying this since dark imperium came out. until you start to have evidance, stop peddling conspiracy theories.

The old marines are being phased out. They're getting the upgrade. The codex literally says this. The only old marines remaining are those who are too cowardly to face the Rubicon.

pm713 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

It's more that Cawl spent 10k years to finish what the Emperor did not because the Big E was rushing to get everything set up for his win condition while the gods where dealing with the upheaval of Slaanesh's birth.

Which is weird in itself. Cawl who (at least to my knowledge) lacked any significant influence managed to make Marines +1. Fabulous Bile worked for longer, had access to as many samples as he needed, had significant pull with a massive amount of military forces and got nowhere near as close.

I feel like the controversy only exists because the community largely misrepresents what what was changed and secondly has pre-assumed that what Cawl is doing is an improvement beyond the Emperor's work.

What Cawl added:

Sinew Coils - literally lacing a space marine's muscles with metallic coils which magnify their muscles natural strength while also slightly reinforcing the muscle against damage

Magnificant - half of an organ originally found the the primarchs genetic template (literally copy+pasted from the primarch genetic blueprint), increases marine growth and amplifies function of other marine implants

Belisarian Furnace - organ that produces chemicals like combat stims which are injected directly into a marines heart during moments of extreme trauma

Fresh Geneseed

Out of 4 additions, 2 are literally just copies of the Emperor's work and the other two are not nearly as complex.

Regarding the second point, a lot of the community has concluded that the marines were made perfect by the Emperor and for a random Magos to improve them is rediculous, but that line of thinking is presupposing that the marines were actually made to the highest potential possible by the Emperor. However we already know that isn't true given that the Custodes are well beyond the ability of basic marines who are themselves lesser than the primarchs, so the idea that marines were the Emperor's best work is nonsense.

Additionally, with the more recent Horus Heresy lore regarding the Emperor intending to largely erase the legions after the Great Crusade and the Human Webway Project were complete (personally not a fan of this lore, but it exists), it's not unreasonable that the marines were intentionally made lesser to avoid the same problem which occurred with the Thunder Warriors given that they proved to be resource intensive to eliminate. The last thing you want are entire legions of roided up Thunder Warriors+ that you need to clean up.

 Crimson wrote:



The old marines are being phased out. They're getting the upgrade. The codex literally says this. The only old marines remaining are those who are too cowardly to face the Rubicon.

That's a pretty loaded/inaccurate way of describing it.

All the lore surrounding the Rubicon upgrade make the process out to still be somewhat high risk and labor intensive, requiring extensive surgery and a long recovery period.
It makes no sense for a chapter to upgrade anyone below their most vaunted members as doing so risks not just a temporary loss of manpower but, more importantly, the potential to permanently lose seasoned warriors should they not come out of the process alive.

Now obviously out of setting it's an excuse for GW to pick and choose who they release updated Primaris kits for, while also throwing a bone to Firstborn players