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Have you broken Imperium law? Are you up for jail time, nay, execution? Well just give Cawl a call, he's been in your position!

*ahem*

Guy Haley's In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future openly mentions that Cawl's mind is essentially composed of numerous AI copies of himself operating in tandem with his original mind, in what he compares to being a conductor of an orchestra with the AI copies as the musicians. Which in effect makes him practically immortal, since he could switch on a backup copy of himself if his original body dies.

- 1d4chan

So, has he broken Imperium law by creating various A.I. copies of himself? Does anyone know about this? Thoughts?

Nothing new, Mary Sue still doing Mary Sue stuff.

 Psionara wrote:
Have you broken Imperium law? Are you up for jail time, nay, execution? Well just give Cawl a call, he's been in your position!

*ahem*

Guy Haley's In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future openly mentions that Cawl's mind is essentially composed of numerous AI copies of himself operating in tandem with his original mind, in what he compares to being a conductor of an orchestra with the AI copies as the musicians. Which in effect makes him practically immortal, since he could switch on a backup copy of himself if his original body dies.

- 1d4chan

So, has he broken Imperium law by creating various A.I. copies of himself? Does anyone know about this? Thoughts?

those aren't AI copies of himself, those are multiple brains with his brain implant on it running in tandum. this is nothing new

He'll out smart a c'tan.Da na na na Cowl

He'll, hey you dont have to like me son, but i like you and forgive.
Cause hes a fantastically nice, smart guy/ machine.
Wasnt a DAOT ship destroyed for doing his bbbbrains in a jar thing.

Have you written yourself into a corner in you latest hack novel, do your need to shoehorn in massive setting destroying retcons/changes due to the marketing/legal team, have you been instructed to make whole sale changes to a faction because of over saturation and the bosses 7 yr old son has designed the “coolest” tank eva.

Then you better call Cawl.


On a serious note cawl has become the 40k equivalent of d&d’s a wizard did it which is quite funny.

Technically he would be a "Marty Stew" because, you know, man. That aside, it's notable in Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work that he's not 100% on what his AI duplicates are up to, and has memory dumps every so often. Given that Cawl himself is a gestalt, thanks to xenos tech, creating AI copies of himself is probably the least radical of his heresies.

SeanDrake wrote:
Have you written yourself into a corner in you latest hack novel, do your need to shoehorn in massive setting destroying retcons/changes due to the marketing/legal team, have you been instructed to make whole sale changes to a faction because of over saturation and the bosses 7 yr old son has designed the “coolest” tank eva.

Then you better call Cawl.


On a serious note cawl has become the 40k equivalent of d&d’s a wizard did it which is quite funny.

Also impressive considering he literally took that from the alpha legion.
Altough maybee cawlpharius is a legoinaire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:
Technically he would be a "Marty Stew" because, you know, man. That aside, it's notable in Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work that he's not 100% on what his AI duplicates are up to, and has memory dumps every so often. Given that Cawl himself is a gestalt, thanks to xenos tech, creating AI copies of himself is probably the least radical of his heresies.

I doubt you could consider him man.
He is if anything and probably considers himself to be a machine sue/stew?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:
Technically he would be a "Marty Stew" because, you know, man. That aside, it's notable in Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work that he's not 100% on what his AI duplicates are up to, and has memory dumps every so often. Given that Cawl himself is a gestalt, thanks to xenos tech, creating AI copies of himself is probably the least radical of his heresies.

I doubt you could consider him man.
He is if anything and probably considers himself to be a machine sue/stew?

It’s almost like the setting is built on contradictions. Hmmm

the novel about Cawl that just came out suggests Cawl is a gestalt of at least 3 individuals, one of whom worked on the original space Marine project (which it turns out wasn't just the emperor dicking around in a lab somewhere but was rather overseen by him but most of the work carried out by individuals, lead, intreastingly eneugh, by a woman named Astartes)

Cawl, in a very real sense actually developed the Black Carapiece. with this in mind his improving space marines is hardly a stretch. especially when you realize that Cawl attempted even more modification and the 3 new implants was all he COULD achieve.

BrianDavion wrote:
the novel about Cawl that just came out suggests Cawl is a gestalt of at least 3 individuals, one of whom worked on the original space Marine project (which it turns out wasn't just the emperor dicking around in a lab somewhere but was rather overseen by him but most of the work carried out by individuals, lead, intreastingly eneugh, by a woman named Astartes)

Cawl, in a very real sense actually developed the Black Carapiece. with this in mind his improving space marines is hardly a stretch. especially when you realize that Cawl attempted even more modification and the 3 new implants was all he COULD achieve.

Did not know any of this and I like it all. Thank you.

Andykp wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the novel about Cawl that just came out suggests Cawl is a gestalt of at least 3 individuals, one of whom worked on the original space Marine project (which it turns out wasn't just the emperor dicking around in a lab somewhere but was rather overseen by him but most of the work carried out by individuals, lead, intreastingly eneugh, by a woman named Astartes)

Cawl, in a very real sense actually developed the Black Carapiece. with this in mind his improving space marines is hardly a stretch. especially when you realize that Cawl attempted even more modification and the 3 new implants was all he COULD achieve.

Did not know any of this and I like it all. Thank you.

no worries, I'm also only halfway through the book so there might be more to come, I think I might make a post info dumping whats there once it's done.

Good idea. I read the book about the imperator Titan not long ago and it gave great insight into how a senior techpriest can operate. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities.

Andykp wrote:
Good idea. I read the book about the imperator Titan not long ago and it gave great insight into how a senior techpriest can operate. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities.

in this case I think it's nesscary as well to combat the misinformation cawl and primaris have thrown at them

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Good idea. I read the book about the imperator Titan not long ago and it gave great insight into how a senior techpriest can operate. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities.

in this case I think it's nesscary as well to combat the misinformation cawl and primaris have thrown at them

Exactly. Does my head in when people say that they are “lore breaking” and fly in the face of previous fluff. When in reality they are very much classic 40k.

BrianDavion wrote:
the novel about Cawl that just came out suggests Cawl is a gestalt of at least 3 individuals, one of whom worked on the original space Marine project (which it turns out wasn't just the emperor dicking around in a lab somewhere but was rather overseen by him but most of the work carried out by individuals, lead, intreastingly eneugh, by a woman named Astartes)

Cawl, in a very real sense actually developed the Black Carapiece. with this in mind his improving space marines is hardly a stretch. especially when you realize that Cawl attempted even more modification and the 3 new implants was all he COULD achieve.

It's a good book (well, the bits about Cawl are good...). I think Cawl would have been better received if he'd been introduced as a character before the Primaris, rather than as a Deus ex machina.

beast_gts wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the novel about Cawl that just came out suggests Cawl is a gestalt of at least 3 individuals, one of whom worked on the original space Marine project (which it turns out wasn't just the emperor dicking around in a lab somewhere but was rather overseen by him but most of the work carried out by individuals, lead, intreastingly eneugh, by a woman named Astartes)

Cawl, in a very real sense actually developed the Black Carapiece. with this in mind his improving space marines is hardly a stretch. especially when you realize that Cawl attempted even more modification and the 3 new implants was all he COULD achieve.

It's a good book (well, the bits about Cawl are good...). I think Cawl would have been better received if he'd been introduced as a character before the Primaris, rather than as a Deus ex machina.

I agree. I get that was what the fall of Cadia was about- but there was too much dumped into that (new eldar god! New inquisitrix in power armour! Plastic sisters!) and he this was his first appearance.

I think a setting as vast as 40K is reduced and rendered trite when individual characters like this can have such a big impact on it.
"The galaxy is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed...(unless you are our fave new character, Cawl, who apparently can change the setting entirely on his own! HOW AWESOME IS THAT? Your characters are totally meaningless!)"

 Da Boss wrote:
I think a setting as vast as 40K is reduced and rendered trite when individual characters like this can have such a big impact on it.
"The galaxy is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed...(unless you are our fave new character, Cawl, who apparently can change the setting entirely on his own! HOW AWESOME IS THAT? Your characters are totally meaningless!)"

Compared to abaddon or guiliman who spilt the galaxy in half or take over the rule of the imperium. All he did was make some new marines. He didn’t change the setting entirely at all. This is what I was on about before. Irrational hate of primaris and cawl. There are always going to be big characters driving the main storyline. See above. And yvraine etc. (I don’t believe they need to represented on the 40k table top but that’s a whole extra thread). They don’t detract from the main setting or the style of the game. They are all grimdark in their way. Even with primaris the imperium is still losing. And cawl is messed up. So in comparison my platoon leader imperial guardsman or back water ORK warboss are pretty insignificant. But not on their battlefield.

I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.

Andykp wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Good idea. I read the book about the imperator Titan not long ago and it gave great insight into how a senior techpriest can operate. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities.

in this case I think it's nesscary as well to combat the misinformation cawl and primaris have thrown at them

Exactly. Does my head in when people say that they are “lore breaking” and fly in the face of previous fluff. When in reality they are very much classic 40k.

I'm not sure I'd say they're classic 40k. But it's good GW are making them less and less pure awesome magic intervention.

Andykp wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I think a setting as vast as 40K is reduced and rendered trite when individual characters like this can have such a big impact on it.
"The galaxy is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed...(unless you are our fave new character, Cawl, who apparently can change the setting entirely on his own! HOW AWESOME IS THAT? Your characters are totally meaningless!)"

Compared to abaddon or guiliman who spilt the galaxy in half or take over the rule of the imperium. All he did was make some new marines. He didn’t change the setting entirely at all. This is what I was on about before. Irrational hate of primaris and cawl. There are always going to be big characters driving the main storyline. See above. And yvraine etc. (I don’t believe they need to represented on the 40k table top but that’s a whole extra thread). They don’t detract from the main setting or the style of the game. They are all grimdark in their way. Even with primaris the imperium is still losing. And cawl is messed up. So in comparison my platoon leader imperial guardsman or back water ORK warboss are pretty insignificant. But not on their battlefield.

Well to be fair cawl made:
- marines 2.0
- armor 2.0
- bolters 2.0
- progress in working with blackstone, maybe even being able to use it (not too sure on that fluff)
- new tanks
- hovertech
(To be fair I always just assumed these last two were his doing. A quick Google search confirmed this however, because of course he did it)

All this coming from one guy begs the question what all those other tech priests have been doing for the last 10k years. I would have vastly preferred it if these advancements would have come from 3 or more special characters instead. To me that would hint at the existence of other tech priests that are achieving stuff, or at least would be capable of it ("we're just showing you these three, but there are more"). This would leave a lot more room for "your dudes" feeling like they could do something meaningful.

Personally I fully agree with DaBoss though, so that definitely colors my view on this.

 Da Boss wrote:
I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.

Yeah, before there were any important characters! Like Abaddon. Or Calgar. Or Dante. Or Bjorn. Or Ghazghkull. Or the Emperor.

Hasn't 40k ALWAYS had named characters? And haven't a great many of those characters been playable or at least active in universe for quite some time (like, over decades now)?

Besides, who cares if Guilliman's doing something on the other side of the galaxy? It's no different to when Abbadon was off doing his Black Crusades, or Thraka was busy on Armageddon. The galaxy's a big place, and whatever Guilliman's off doing has no effect on my dudes fighting their little war in some distant sector of the galaxy.

Well to be fair cawl made:
- marines 2.0

The guy did pretty much create the Black Carapace under the Emperor’s supervision. A few more organs and some growth stimulants aren’t outrageous.

- armor 2.0

Only new thing about the armor is that it can be stripped back or plate can be added to it. Still confers the same protection.

- bolters 2.0

Upgraded bolters. It’s not an entire redesign, just some improvements.

- progress in working with blackstone, maybe even being able to use it (not too sure on that fluff)

?

- new tanks
- hovertech
(To be fair I always just assumed these last two were his doing. A quick Google search confirmed this however, because of course he did it)

Just a bunch of old STCs cobbled together in a new way.

All this coming from one guy begs the question what all those other tech priests have been doing for the last 10k years. I would have vastly preferred it if these advancements would have come from 3 or more special characters instead. To me that would hint at the existence of other tech priests that are achieving stuff, or at least would be capable of it ("we're just showing you these three, but there are more"). This would leave a lot more room for "your dudes" feeling like they could do something meaningful.

Hasn’t it been implied enough over the years that Tech Priests do whatever they want when they get enough power to do so?

Personally I fully agree with DaBoss though, so that definitely colors my view on this.

I don’t even like using named characters. I wish they made it so you still had to ask your opponent for permission to use them. The Tempestus Drop force list I’m building would be way stronger if I added in Commissar Yarrik and Aradia Madellan.

 godardc wrote:
Nothing new, Mary Sue still doing Mary Sue stuff.

Do you even know what the definition of a Mary sue is, or are you just regurgitating 1d4chan garbage?

Andykp wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Good idea. I read the book about the imperator Titan not long ago and it gave great insight into how a senior techpriest can operate. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities.

in this case I think it's nesscary as well to combat the misinformation cawl and primaris have thrown at them

Exactly. Does my head in when people say that they are “lore breaking” and fly in the face of previous fluff. When in reality they are very much classic 40k.

Except it’s taken 2 years to get to a novel that retcons/introduces cawl as anything other than a walking plot device, Primaris are very much not classic 40k in any way shape or form they are space marines by focus group designed to appeal to kids who’s main experience of warfare is cod.
Primaris are imperial TAU and given the grief TAU get from some people I am surprised at how much of a pass Primaris gets.

Don’t get me wrong Primaris are now 40k and that’s fair enough it’s GW’s sandbox and they think they found a new golden egg in reselling all space marine players there army again but there not classic 40k there not even grim derp 40k.

SeanDrake wrote:

Andykp wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Good idea. I read the book about the imperator Titan not long ago and it gave great insight into how a senior techpriest can operate. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities.

in this case I think it's nesscary as well to combat the misinformation cawl and primaris have thrown at them

Exactly. Does my head in when people say that they are “lore breaking” and fly in the face of previous fluff. When in reality they are very much classic 40k.

Except it’s taken 2 years to get to a novel that retcons/introduces cawl as anything other than a walking plot device, Primaris are very much not classic 40k in any way shape or form they are space marines by focus group designed to appeal to kids who’s main experience of warfare is cod.
Primaris are imperial TAU and given the grief TAU get from some people I am surprised at how much of a pass Primaris gets.

Don’t get me wrong Primaris are now 40k and that’s fair enough it’s GW’s sandbox and they think they found a new golden egg in reselling all space marine players there army again but there not classic 40k there not even grim derp 40k.

funny you mention children, because only a child would consider 2 years a long time! Also the bit about him developing the Black Carapiece and studying directly under the Emperor came from codex Adeptus Mechancius 8th edition which came out in september 2017 mere months after Primaris Marines first came out.

Now we're simply getting more and more data. which is normal for 40k, expecting GW to do a massive info dump and flesh everything out in a month is mind bogglingly unrealistic.

SeanDrake wrote:

Andykp wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Good idea. I read the book about the imperator Titan not long ago and it gave great insight into how a senior techpriest can operate. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities.

in this case I think it's nesscary as well to combat the misinformation cawl and primaris have thrown at them

Exactly. Does my head in when people say that they are “lore breaking” and fly in the face of previous fluff. When in reality they are very much classic 40k.

Except it’s taken 2 years to get to a novel that retcons/introduces cawl as anything other than a walking plot device, Primaris are very much not classic 40k in any way shape or form they are space marines by focus group designed to appeal to kids who’s main experience of warfare is cod.
Primaris are imperial TAU and given the grief TAU get from some people I am surprised at how much of a pass Primaris gets.

Don’t get me wrong Primaris are now 40k and that’s fair enough it’s GW’s sandbox and they think they found a new golden egg in reselling all space marine players there army again but there not classic 40k there not even grim derp 40k.

They are marines in the same way old ones were. With al, the same tragedy and sacrifice.but even more so because they are often shunned by the old marines too and are out of place in their own chapters. They are also another example of the futility of the imperium. Facing ever closer ruin they opt to make more marines. No talk of reform just re hash the old methods and keep scrapping. Even with them the galaxy is tipped in two and half the empire is covered in demons and horror. They represent the new best hope of mankind and they are breaking even if they are lucky. The galaxy is more doomed than ever.

And as for cawl he is a true mess. A mash up of personas and AI. Huge holes in his memory, suggestions of alien interference. He is the classic mystery wrapped up in an enigma but in classic 40k style even he doesn’t know who he is really.

Now I don’t play with special characters. Never have. But the story needs characters. The over arching narrative needs leaders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.

If you don’t like the period where named characters were around you pretty much only like first edition. I don’t think they belong on the battle field but they do belong in the narrative. They don’t have to feature in the story of “your” dudes. That’s up to you.

You are twisting my words. I do not want characters that influence the entire setting. Saving one world, or a group of worlds, stopping a major invasion or leading one is fine. Doing stuff that totally upends the status quo is not. A character like Abaddon that THREATENS to upend the status quo is fine, but him actually doing so is not.

You said above that stories need characters and over arching narratives need leaders. That is true. But Warhammer 40K is a game, not a TV show, a series of novels or a comic book. It is not a serial medium, it does not need a narrative or a story. It is a place to make your own stories and narratives with characters you have invented yourself. The special characters used to be just that - special, mostly examples of characters that the GW design team had made. Over time they have moved centre stage, so that generic characters are now in the backseat and the GW invented characters are driving everything.

 Da Boss wrote:
You are twisting my words. I do not want characters that influence the entire setting. Saving one world, or a group of worlds, stopping a major invasion or leading one is fine. Doing stuff that totally upends the status quo is not. A character like Abaddon that THREATENS to upend the status quo is fine, but him actually doing so is not.

But Guilliman hasn't changed the status quo. The Imperium's still surrounded on all fronts, fighting a losing war. Chaos still threatens to corrupt and strike at the Imperium. Space Marines are still genetically engineered supersoldiers in power armour and with bolters.

The general state of the 40k universe is still fundamentally the same - the maps look different, the place names changed and the characters are more famous, but we've hardly gone from "the Imperium is losing - now they're winning!" If the setting was midway through the Indomitus Crusade, that would be a change, because the theme of that crusade was of reconquest. However, we skipped right over that portion of history, and we're back at a stalemate.

It is a place to make your own stories and narratives with characters you have invented yourself. The special characters used to be just that - special, mostly examples of characters that the GW design team had made. Over time they have moved centre stage, so that generic characters are now in the backseat and the GW invented characters are driving everything.

Sorry, but GW invented characters have ALWAYS been driving everything. Abaddon was always doing his Black Crusades and massing the forces of Chaos to his banner. The Swarmlord was always leading Tyranid invasions across the galaxy. Aun'Va was always leading the T'au into greater expansion, with Farsight there to rebel against him. Your Ultramarines captain was always under the command of Calgar, your Blood Angels always subordinate to Dante, etc etc.

You can still do all the things you've always done. There's always been named characters, but your generic dudes don't need to care what they do. Who cares if the Imperium is being commanded by the HLOT directly or by Guilliman - what happens in the Genericus Sector is not their concern.