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Hi all,

It feels like every time I go on Youtube, another channel that I like has been demonetized - either partially or fully. I swear that years ago this was not an issue.


Anyone here use or know of effective alternatives? I have a hard time supporting an organization that acts this way.

Youtube is cracking down on neonazis, pedophiles and direct marketing to little children. If what you're watching isn't doing any of these things, they should be able to appeal any algorithm misfires.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Youtube is cracking down on neonazis, pedophiles and direct marketing to little children. If what you're watching isn't doing any of these things, they should be able to appeal any algorithm misfires.

They're also doing it so messily that people who aren't any of these things are getting caught in the crossfire. For example, an LGBTQ advocate got demonetized because apparently the algorithm YouTube is using can't tell the difference, and appeals can take months. Someone even did a test where they made a fresh account and just said some LGBTQ related phrases and literally nothing else. Demonetized within 24 hours.

This isn't the first time YouTube has fethed this kind of thing up either. They still can't process copyright issues in any way approaching fair, and there are still people basically profiting off of abusive and disturbing behavior because "it's just a joke." So, I admire the effort, but the end result sucks in practice. Of course, they don't really have to care about these problems, because there is no alternative. Other video services are completely lacking in awareness or service quality.

Snap, I did forget about LGBTQ. A couple of creators just finished a 2 months test and totally proved the algorithms automatically demonetize based on LGBTQ keywords.

Cothonian wrote:Hi all,

It feels like every time I go on Youtube, another channel that I like has been demonetized - either partially or fully. I swear that years ago this was not an issue.


Anyone here use or know of effective alternatives? I have a hard time supporting an organization that acts this way.

There isn't one unfortunately, at least not that has all the same content, tool, viewers, etc. That's a big part of the problem.

lord_blackfang wrote:Youtube is cracking down on neonazis, pedophiles and direct marketing to little children. If what you're watching isn't doing any of these things, they should be able to appeal any algorithm misfires.

YouTube is cracking down on lots of stuff, in a very poor and ham-fisted way. Tons of channels about history, firearms, digital rights, swords, battles, etc with little or nothing particularly controversial (or at least nothing that you wouldnt find on daytime cable TV), are being demonetized and delisted from suggestions and searches as well. Anything even remotely connected to something possibly controversial politically is getting hit.

Appeals go into black holes that often get no response or are upheld, with little or no consistency and zero transparency or further appeal, and no way to talk to an actual person about it either. The guidelines and rules YT/Google does publish are often intentionally vague and over arching.

Stuff like channels going that follow the history of WW1 and WW2 on a weekly basis are getting hammered, IIRC they just got all of their vids demonetized.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Youtube is cracking down on neonazis, pedophiles and direct marketing to little children. If what you're watching isn't doing any of these things, they should be able to appeal any algorithm misfires.

How exactly popular robot fights videos that got banned en masse in August for animal cruelty are neonazi, pedophile or direct marketing to children content?

YouTube is far beyond the point of being ridiculous with their overcautious demonetize/remove policies.

 Vaktathi wrote:


YouTube is cracking down on lots of stuff, in a very poor and ham-fisted way. Tons of channels about history, firearms, digital rights, swords, battles, etc with little or nothing particularly controversial (or at least nothing that you wouldnt find on daytime cable TV), are being demonetized and delisted from suggestions and searches as well. Anything even remotely connected to something possibly controversial politically is getting hit.

Appeals go into black holes that often get no response or are upheld, with little or no consistency and zero transparency or further appeal, and no way to talk to an actual person about it either. The guidelines and rules YT/Google does publish are often intentionally vague and over arching.

Stuff like channels going that follow the history of WW1 and WW2 on a weekly basis are getting hammered, IIRC they just got all of their vids demonetized.

This. Skallagrim (medieval weapons and armor), Forgotten Weapons (historical arms), Mark Felton Productions (military history, mostly WWII) to name a few. Another channel that my sister watches that covers how to do movie-grade makeup/masks/costumes that got demonetized almost completely because of one video featuring a zombie getup (sorry, I do not remember the channel name.) One video covering combat in the city of Marawi can only be found if you have a direct link for it.

I knew that there'd be a neo nazi accusation the second I posted this thread.

anything that gets big enough to be worthwhile (at least to a general audience) is going to be financially attractive enough for lawyers with real (or spurious) claims to go after

and once that starts happening its much cheaper to digital controls to remove content to avoid legal problems (or because they're genuinely against it like child porn)

you also really don't want to put up a tight list of what's allowed/not allowed as the genuine crooks will be able to create content that's technically ok but will still be stuff you don't want on your network, keeping it vague means you're much more able to boot off those you don't want (while having a technically minimally regulated platform, and you need it minimally regulated because the tighter you regulate the more the public, lawyers and court tend to see you as responsible for the content, traditional publisher rather than nu-media distributor)

sadly this leads to a raft of dud take downs which they don't want to look at in detail because that would mean paying real people to do it (and because even real people will disagree over whether something is ok under the rules because your rules are loose and fuzzy)

The way the algorithm works there is no way anyone is going to be able to fix the misfires (at least that what i understand of how they build these algorithm robits), additionally with the volume of appeals its basically impossible to reverse the demonetization quickly enough to make it worth it considering most of the ad revenue views are within the first few days.

All in all the only real alternative to supporting channels is just Patrion.

Not to mention people are censoring themselves to the limits of a curse word a 5 year old might say like poo poo head. It's kind of embarrassing and pathetic. I don't need cursing and all the worst stuff but youtube as it currently is needs an alternative. Youtube just has way too much power.

If you want the CCP to have all your info you can use TikToc.

 LordofHats wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Youtube is cracking down on neonazis, pedophiles and direct marketing to little children. If what you're watching isn't doing any of these things, they should be able to appeal any algorithm misfires.

They're also doing it so messily that people who aren't any of these things are getting caught in the crossfire. For example, an LGBTQ advocate got demonetized because apparently the algorithm YouTube is using can't tell the difference, and appeals can take months. Someone even did a test where they made a fresh account and just said some LGBTQ related phrases and literally nothing else. Demonetized within 24 hours.

This isn't the first time YouTube has fethed this kind of thing up either. They still can't process copyright issues in any way approaching fair, and there are still people basically profiting off of abusive and disturbing behavior because "it's just a joke." So, I admire the effort, but the end result sucks in practice. Of course, they don't really have to care about these problems, because there is no alternative. Other video services are completely lacking in awareness or service quality.

Didn't know the "great war Channel" or History animated, etc are neonazis.

No, it is for the sake of removing controversial stuff, which is hillarious.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Didn't know the "great war Channel" or History animated, etc are neonazis.

No, it is for the sake of removing controversial stuff, which is hillarious.

They're not... That's why it's completely hamfisted. They're just running around demonetizing channels based on words and phrases, seemingly with zero regard for context (or basic sense). They've said they're doing it for reason X, but if that's their goal they're kind of sucking at it.

EDIT: And actually, while we're on the topic, let's note how utterly fething pointless that is. I mean, what does anyone think is going to happen? YouTube demonetizes Randy the Nazi's youtube channel because he said the word "gays" and suddenly Randy will stop being a Nazi? Yeah right. YouTube ad revenue isn't that much, and the Randy probably makes more money selling everything from racist coffee mugs to guides on how to modify your AR-15 into an automatic (that don't actually work) and survival guides for how to forage for berries after the Jews take over the world or something. Literally. This big demonetization binge YouTube has gone on is a trial in futility that achieves nothing but frustrating people who didn't do anything wrong.

So basically like the way that Tumblr tried to crack down on CP and basically took off both porn and anything that wasn't even porn but poorly labeled as such. Seems like it could've done the job much better. Although in some cases it did kick off pedos but no porn on tumblr is kind of a bum deal.

 LordofHats wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Didn't know the "great war Channel" or History animated, etc are neonazis.

No, it is for the sake of removing controversial stuff, which is hillarious.

They're not... That's why it's completely hamfisted. They're just running around demonetizing channels based on words and phrases, seemingly with zero regard for context (or basic sense). They've said they're doing it for reason X, but if that's their goal they're kind of sucking at it.

EDIT: And actually, while we're on the topic, let's note how utterly fething pointless that is. I mean, what does anyone think is going to happen? YouTube demonetizes Randy the Nazi's youtube channel because he said the word "gays" and suddenly Randy will stop being a Nazi? Yeah right. YouTube ad revenue isn't that much, and the Randy probably makes more money selling everything from racist coffee mugs to guides on how to modify your AR-15 into an automatic (that don't actually work) and survival guides for how to forage for berries after the Jews take over the world or something. Literally. This big demonetization binge YouTube has gone on is a trial in futility that achieves nothing but frustrating people who didn't do anything wrong.

No it's a trial in money.
If they curate their programm to the liking of the companies they get more money, ergo TV.
However, they completetly forget what made the plattform great.

Also surprise surprise the Holodomor, the Armenian genocide are controversial but proven, however these things are not liked to be talked about because how to monetize them propperly.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So basically like the way that Tumblr tried to crack down on CP and basically took off both porn and anything that wasn't even porn but poorly labeled as such. Seems like it could've done the job much better. Although in some cases it did kick off pedos but no porn on tumblr is kind of a bum deal.

instead of scalpell they used an automatic shotgun.

The network effect that makes platforms like youtube even semi viable and attractive to users precludes proper moderation of content. Advertisers started getting spooked about youtube when it was shown how the algorithm (accidentally) contributes to radicalisation through how it has learned to monopolize attention. This is Youtube's response, typically Google in form - use more algorithms, ignore complaints, and trust to size and market penetration to see you through.

These companies are monopolies, but there is a strange dearth of political will to do anything about it. Could not have anything to do with the billions they spend lobbying in the EU and US. Capitalism does not function properly if monopolies are allowed to form, so all these proud capitalists better get on with fixing this.

Edit to add: I really hate that "monetize" ever became a verb. Disgusting.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Didn't know the "great war Channel" or History animated, etc are neonazis.

No, it is for the sake of removing controversial stuff, which is hillarious.

They're not... That's why it's completely hamfisted. They're just running around demonetizing channels based on words and phrases, seemingly with zero regard for context (or basic sense). They've said they're doing it for reason X, but if that's their goal they're kind of sucking at it.

EDIT: And actually, while we're on the topic, let's note how utterly fething pointless that is. I mean, what does anyone think is going to happen? YouTube demonetizes Randy the Nazi's youtube channel because he said the word "gays" and suddenly Randy will stop being a Nazi? Yeah right. YouTube ad revenue isn't that much, and the Randy probably makes more money selling everything from racist coffee mugs to guides on how to modify your AR-15 into an automatic (that don't actually work) and survival guides for how to forage for berries after the Jews take over the world or something. Literally. This big demonetization binge YouTube has gone on is a trial in futility that achieves nothing but frustrating people who didn't do anything wrong.

No it's a trial in money.
If they curate their programm to the liking of the companies they get more money, ergo TV.
However, they completetly forget what made the plattform great.

Also surprise surprise the Holodomor, the Armenian genocide are controversial but proven, however these things are not liked to be talked about because how to monetize them propperly.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So basically like the way that Tumblr tried to crack down on CP and basically took off both porn and anything that wasn't even porn but poorly labeled as such. Seems like it could've done the job much better. Although in some cases it did kick off pedos but no porn on tumblr is kind of a bum deal.

instead of scalpell they used an automatic shotgun.

They cant curate it properly as their entire system is algorithm based. they dont have a board room full of people picking and choosing what should be on the top trending bar. its an algorithm that decides for each individual person. and with the number of videos being dumped onto it there is literally no way to hire enough people to sit there and look at every single video in full to make sure everything meets TOS guidelines. the unfortunate part is that demonetization is a problem with the advertisers wanting everything to be squeaky clean so youtube flags a lot of everything just in case. people technically need to flag or contest all false positives so that whatever triggered the flagging can be marked properly for actual human review. thats the only real way for that system to function ideally.

as it currently is though it seems that no one actually works at YT. their copyright team is non-existent so its probably the same for the demonetization team.

its all robots.

 Da Boss wrote:
The network effect that makes platforms like youtube even semi viable and attractive to users precludes proper moderation of content. Advertisers started getting spooked about youtube when it was shown how the algorithm (accidentally) contributes to radicalisation through how it has learned to monopolize attention. This is Youtube's response, typically Google in form - use more algorithms, ignore complaints, and trust to size and market penetration to see you through.

These companies are monopolies, but there is a strange dearth of political will to do anything about it. Could not have anything to do with the billions they spend lobbying in the EU and US. Capitalism does not function properly if monopolies are allowed to form, so all these proud capitalists better get on with fixing this.

Edit to add: I really hate that "monetize" ever became a verb. Disgusting.

The issue is, that it is a wanted monopoly.
A political monopoly aswell as a company one.
That is the main reason nothing will happen.
Even though correct would be the split off of the search engine and the conglomerate.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Youtube is cracking down on neonazis, pedophiles and direct marketing to little children. If what you're watching isn't doing any of these things, they should be able to appeal any algorithm misfires.

It's catching way more than any of those things. Many history channels have been flagged in recent months, with nonsensical video demonetization.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cothonian wrote:
Hi all,

It feels like every time I go on Youtube, another channel that I like has been demonetized - either partially or fully. I swear that years ago this was not an issue.


Anyone here use or know of effective alternatives? I have a hard time supporting an organization that acts this way.

Vimeo is a great alternative, though the content is a bit different from what you might be wanting.

I think if entertainment is your game, it's going to be Netflix, A prime, Youtube or bust.

 Togusa wrote:

 Cothonian wrote:
Hi all,

It feels like every time I go on Youtube, another channel that I like has been demonetized - either partially or fully. I swear that years ago this was not an issue.


Anyone here use or know of effective alternatives? I have a hard time supporting an organization that acts this way.

Vimeo is a great alternative, though the content is a bit different from what you might be wanting.

I think if entertainment is your game, it's going to be Netflix, A prime, Youtube or bust.

I think he is looking for more on historical and war type content. if you want literal history channel type stuff amazon prime video had a ton of historical stuff.

Historical is a big part of what I want (and is for the most part what I watch.)

Kind of wish there was another more open video platform (though clearly we have established that this is hard to come by.) I do like to watch the occasional silly <fill in the blank> meme compilation too.

Channels like Skallagrim, Forgotten Weapons, and Mark Felton Productions feature absolutely excellent content, but I feel that they'd be hard pressed to make full fledged shows out of their work (such as something that would be featured on Amazon or Netflix.)

Well, here's to hoping that something new eventually comes out. I imagine that if a new, solid video watching platform came out and a couple of the big youtube stars started posting their material on that one as well it could take off and become an effective alternative.

I'll also take a look at Vimeo. I've heard of it, but only actually looked at it once or twice.

I have had several of my mini painting videos demonitized as not being suitable for all advertisers. I appealed them all and had ads again within minutes to hours. While I think the algorithms are dumb and don’t work all that well, I haven’t had a problem with a real person looking at it right away.

Vimeo is an alternative as a viewer, but not as a content creator. For me to put my videos on Vimeo, it will cost me 25 bucks a month. Which is more than half of what I make on YT, and they let me post for free. As much as YT can sometimes suck, there simply isn’t any alternative at all as a creator.

 LordofHats wrote:
Yeah right. YouTube ad revenue isn't that much,

Not really true. . . While I don't have a channel or anything like that, there's a bloke who's a "major" member of the golf course my dad works for where YT videos are his family's main source of income. . . Last year, they allegedly cleared $2 million after taxes, and all their channel does, is review "kids" stuff (board games and toys is how they started out, and is still the bulk of what they do, apparently).



@Cothonian, I don't think anyone here was calling you a neo-nazi. .. . merely pointing out how that is one of the primary targets of the silly algorithms.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Last year, they allegedly cleared $2 million after taxes, and all their channel does, is review "kids" stuff (board games and toys is how they started out, and is still the bulk of what they do, apparently).

You need millions of viewers to reach that amount on your videos (assuming ad revenue alone).

I'm not saying you can't get rich of YouTube ads, but there are not that many people who are going to do it and anyone who has that many viewers is probably making more on merchandise than ads.

Yeah a patreon or equivalent seems better. Btw did anybody else see that youtube channel with the girl that supposedly lived in her car a couple years, was magically attractive despite such a lifestyle and got massive popularity in a short time with only like 2 or 3 videos. Gotta love how fake it was. I mean if it's a pitch for a tv show fine but this isn't real people broadcasting themselves. Closer to a reality show actually.

Really though that's the other reason to leave youtube. It just became so corporate instead of a mix of talented interesting low budget shows, stupid stunts and people joking around.

Sadly there isn't one.

Youtube really just needs to stop with demonitization. Its bad for everyone involved. If advertisers don't want their ads on certain content Youtube should just give an option for advertisers to pick content their ad is/isn't featured next to and price it accordingly, and continue to share any ad revenue they do make with all content providers. Withholding that money is morally wrong, as you are essentially profiting off their content for free. That's basically theft of Intellectual Property.

Youtube, Facebook, and everybody else needs to move towards true neutrality on issues. Silencing and oppressing voices you disagree with is perhaps the most immoral thing that a person can do.

 Grey Templar wrote:


Youtube, Facebook, and everybody else needs to move towards true neutrality on issues. Silencing and oppressing voices you disagree with is perhaps the most immoral thing that a person can do.

Sadly it is 2019 and this is the world we currently live in. I think everything stopped being fun after the twenty tweens as people called 2012.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Youtube really just needs to stop with demonitization. Its bad for everyone involved.

It's not bad for Youtube, since their revenue comes from advertisers, who want more control over where their ads are shown. As a corporation in the US, they have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to maximize revenue.

The people uploading videos to Youtube are by and large not customers, they are product.

 Grey Templar wrote:
If advertisers don't want their ads on certain content Youtube should just give an option for advertisers to pick content their ad is/isn't featured next to and price it accordingly, and continue to share any ad revenue they do make with all content providers.

I mean, I agree they are doing it badly, but... why should popular channels that drive revenue subsidize niche/unpopular ones that don't? "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"? If that's what you mean, then sure, I agree!

 Grey Templar wrote:
Withholding that money is morally wrong, as you are essentially profiting off their content for free. That's basically theft of Intellectual Property.

I don't know how this could possibly be more wrong. When you upload your content to Youtube, which is a privately owned platform, you agree to their terms of service, which include the possibility of revenue at certain levels and an explanation that their terms can change at will. If you don't like it, use something else. If the terms change in a way that is unfavorable to you, delete your content and go somewhere else, or start your own video provider. Free country, man. Vote with your wallet (or in this case your cat videos or batreps or whatever).

 Grey Templar wrote:
Youtube, Facebook, and everybody else needs to move towards true neutrality on issues. Silencing and oppressing voices you disagree with is perhaps the most immoral thing that a person can do.

No one is being silenced. Youtube is a private platform. You can use them, or you can use someone else. No one is taking away your freedom to express yourself by declining to directly subsidize it.

Not being able to generate revenue off your Youtube channel isn't being oppressed by any reasonable definition.

The thing is that YouTube, Facebook, and Google have effectively become monopolies. I am becoming more in favor of then becoming regulated like public utilities in that they cannot favor certain content/customers/producers since competing with them is impossible, at least in any practical fashion.

I don't know that I would agree they are monopolies, and definitely not public utilties (water and instagram aren't good analogues)... but ,I would agree that they have been allowed too much integration and consolidation and should have pieces of their respective business broken up. Amazon also comes to mind pretty readily, for what it's worth.

Since I agree with where you're ending up, there's no reason to quibble about the directions we used to get there.