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With salamanders, probably, getting a lot of use from flamers and meltas and primaris only having flamer aggressors, will the mini marine get his time in the sun from the salamanders book?

No

Nope.

Noooooo....

Yup, but there's a lot to offer from the other supplements for oldmarines, too.

I'm curious then, Reece from flg has said several times that salamanders hit the hardest of all the new marines. Their super doctrine involves flamers and meltas so if not things like devastators in drop pods, bike squads etc from the mini marines line, what in the primaris range benefits from their trait?
The invictus warsuit doesn't get any benefit until turn two so doesn't gain much from its scout move.
Is there something I'm missing since I've not kept up with marines 100%.

No offense to Reese/Reece...but he's been 100% wrong in almost every single thing he's said since the start of 8th edition. I've never once seen a "Well he said that..." come true. I think it's time to stop listening to what he says, despite being a playtester, etc.

 Elbows wrote:
No offense to Reese/Reece...but he's been 100% wrong in almost every single thing he's said since the start of 8th edition. I've never once seen a "Well he said that..." come true. I think it's time to stop listening to what he says, despite being a playtester, etc.

IDK about that. He has a lot of insight and knowledge. The guy isn't dumb and sure he makes mistakes he is also often right. I mean hey he did just recently say Iron Hands would be very powerful and here we are

Honestly if you want to play mini marines Ultramarines are a great way to go.

12 points for a 2 shot ap-1 bolter at 24 (or 27 if you choose to go with successors) is quite a bargain. Their special doctrine works best for mixed units like tactical squads/devs/sterngaurd which take heavies but the majoirty of the unit has bolters. Their landraiders are actually useable because they can fall back and shoot. Who knows what Salies are gonna get but it would be hard to match that.

I was just looking at it the other way the best way to run ultras is probably with mass tactical squads.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
No offense to Reese/Reece...but he's been 100% wrong in almost every single thing he's said since the start of 8th edition. I've never once seen a "Well he said that..." come true. I think it's time to stop listening to what he says, despite being a playtester, etc.

IDK about that. He has a lot of insight and knowledge. The guy isn't dumb and sure he makes mistakes he is also often right. I mean hey he did just recently say Iron Hands would be very powerful and here we are

Isn\t he also store owner? That's reason enough for his hype. We are talking about guy who claimed stompa would be brokenly good.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
No offense to Reese/Reece...but he's been 100% wrong in almost every single thing he's said since the start of 8th edition. I've never once seen a "Well he said that..." come true. I think it's time to stop listening to what he says, despite being a playtester, etc.

IDK about that. He has a lot of insight and knowledge. The guy isn't dumb and sure he makes mistakes he is also often right. I mean hey he did just recently say Iron Hands would be very powerful and here we are

I'm a big fan of FLG but yeah, reece is full of gak when it comes to things like that.

He has an EXTREMELY optimistic view on things like army competitiveness and unit balance.

And anyone that can do basic math knew ih were gonna be good. You didn't need much insight and knowledge to get that.

Classic Marines are already awesome. Better than the Primaris, imo.

Yes, my attack bikes, landspeeders, & devs will enjoy some use. Diemos pred w magnamelta & heavy flamers now feels like I should use it again. All of the meltaguns/MM & flamers sprinkled amongst my 18th should now do some damage. Relic contemptor w MM & flame fist are now even deadlier. The pyromancy discipline offensive & defensive traits kickass. the iron dragon is even more ridiculous with the new supplement.


but none of that fits the "mini astartes are being squatted now" narrative.

In Reece's defence he also said the ih Leviathans were a red herring which dakka seems to be catching up to.
There's no doubt he's a glass half full kind of guy whereas some of the dakka community are more glass smashed into own forehead kind of people!

kingheff wrote:
With salamanders, probably, getting a lot of use from flamers and meltas and primaris only having flamer aggressors, will the mini marine get his time in the sun from the salamanders book?

I'd be betting against it, at least with regards to melta and flamer.

Re-rolling to hit and to wound definitely empowers the regular marine "4 wounds and a gun" loadouts, and high-quality low-volume shooting in general.

kingheff wrote:
In Reece's defence he also said the ih Leviathans were a red herring which dakka seems to be catching up to.
There's no doubt he's a glass half full kind of guy whereas some of the dakka community are more glass smashed into own forehead kind of people!

Yea there's a clear tendency to paint people with a broad brush - Reece is always wrong, Matt Ward is the worst human alive, Cruddace is cruddy, yadda yadda yadda.

You don't have to look terribly far to find value for mini-marines. You'll probably see mixed forces of old and primaris though, because there are things for primaris that are too hard to pass up.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

kingheff wrote:
In Reece's defence he also said the ih Leviathans were a red herring which dakka seems to be catching up to.
There's no doubt he's a glass half full kind of guy whereas some of the dakka community are more glass smashed into own forehead kind of people!

Yea there's a clear tendency to paint people with a broad brush - Reece is always wrong, Matt Ward is the worst human alive, Cruddace is cruddy, yadda yadda yadda.

You don't have to look terribly far to find value for mini-marines. You'll probably see mixed forces of old and primaris though, because there are things for primaris that are too hard to pass up.

Well I lost respect for Reece after he told Grey Knights players to suck it up after the initial Smite nerf.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

kingheff wrote:
In Reece's defence he also said the ih Leviathans were a red herring which dakka seems to be catching up to.
There's no doubt he's a glass half full kind of guy whereas some of the dakka community are more glass smashed into own forehead kind of people!

Yea there's a clear tendency to paint people with a broad brush - Reece is always wrong, Matt Ward is the worst human alive, Cruddace is cruddy, yadda yadda yadda.

You don't have to look terribly far to find value for mini-marines. You'll probably see mixed forces of old and primaris though, because there are things for primaris that are too hard to pass up.

This is Teh InterwebZ. You're either the Second Coming or Evil Incarnate. Middle ground is for noobs.

That's depressingly accurate Bharring.

Slayer-Fan123 781358 10598505 wrote:
Well I lost respect for Reece after he told Grey Knights players to suck it up after the initial Smite nerf.

He did? Was it in an official GW document, forum post or podcast?

Karol wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 781358 10598505 wrote:
Well I lost respect for Reece after he told Grey Knights players to suck it up after the initial Smite nerf.

He did? Was it in an official GW document, forum post or podcast?

As far as I know, Reece is not a member of GW. He has his own company and brand. GW has a relationship with him, but his statements are not GW statements.

Besides, wasn't he right? GK's only real option for a long time now has been to suck it up.

Salamanders already had some nice perks for old marines. The re-rolls when you only had 1-2 special weapons in a tac/bike/whatever squad got you a lot of bang for your buck, and meant you were less reliant on death-balling up around HQs.

I’ve not seen any solid rumors for the new book, but I suspect that Salamanders should be fairly solid, middle of the pack at the very least. While not promoting any broken synergies, their traits are not too shabby and generally useful.

Old marines are already in an alright place. They'll never perhaps be better than the primaris marines. That just isn't how they are designed to be. They may be more versatile in the unit selection for awhile but not great.

Primaris are sizing up to be the elite marines. I still love my old marines but they are more the quantity has a quality all its own version of marines. They won't be made any greater than the impact of strats, abilities from chapters and cheapness of the units to be the more spammed option over the primaris side.

The best part of old marines ? They are cheaper to buy. Which is a real benefit I feel.

 Nevelon wrote:
Salamanders already had some nice perks for old marines. The re-rolls when you only had 1-2 special weapons in a tac/bike/whatever squad got you a lot of bang for your buck, and meant you were less reliant on death-balling up around HQs.

I’ve not seen any solid rumors for the new book, but I suspect that Salamanders should be fairly solid, middle of the pack at the very least. While not promoting any broken synergies, their traits are not too shabby and generally useful.

keep in mind that the re-roll 1 weapon trait is something sucessors can get too. someone who really wants to use a lot of mobile tac squads might wanna consider an ultramarines sucessor with the master crafters and bolter fulsade traits.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Salamanders already had some nice perks for old marines. The re-rolls when you only had 1-2 special weapons in a tac/bike/whatever squad got you a lot of bang for your buck, and meant you were less reliant on death-balling up around HQs.

I’ve not seen any solid rumors for the new book, but I suspect that Salamanders should be fairly solid, middle of the pack at the very least. While not promoting any broken synergies, their traits are not too shabby and generally useful.

keep in mind that the re-roll 1 weapon trait is something sucessors can get too. someone who really wants to use a lot of mobile tac squads might wanna consider an ultramarines sucessor with the master crafters and bolter fulsade traits.

True, but the other parts of the trait are not useless. I was playing a match vs. my son, Ultra vs. Sal. The ignoring AP of -1 was also pretty nice. Very all or nothing in a mirror match. It meant he always got his save vs. normal bolters, regardless of what doctrine I was in. But things like HBs and bolt rifles which are normally AP 1 were either full save or -2.

All the extras in the strats/traits/psychic stuff is going to be what makes/breaks the supplement competitively. We’ll see if there is any truly broken stuff in there. But with so few things that are chapter specific, the question of “why not successor” is a valid one.

Where mini marines will absolutely shine to ridiculous levels is in IF instead. Minimarine devastators with HB drop podding everywhere are an easy way to table any army they vs.

IMHO there's a trinity of top Marine armies. Iron Hands (duh) Imperial Fists, and Ultramarines. Ultramarines doctrine ability does not get the attention it should, it can be crazy good for a mobile army. meanwhile the toolchest of their strats is proably the best of them. All the other chapoters are designed to fight one way. Ultramarines are going to be a wildcard army where you can't be 100% sure what you're dealing with.

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO there's a trinity of top Marine armies. Iron Hands (duh) Imperial Fists, and Ultramarines. Ultramarines doctrine ability does not get the attention it should, it can be crazy good for a mobile army. meanwhile the toolchest of their strats is proably the best of them. All the other chapoters are designed to fight one way. Ultramarines are going to be a wildcard army where you can't be 100% sure what you're dealing with.

^This so much. The UM Strats give you so much flexibility, there's a ton of ways to run them. Just the "Pick any Doctrine for a Squad" is so money.

kingheff wrote:
With salamanders, probably, getting a lot of use from flamers and meltas and primaris only having flamer aggressors, will the mini marine get his time in the sun from the salamanders book?

Seems to me that a custom chapter with +3" range would get a lot more use from flamers than Salamanders. A Sternguard squad full of combi-flamers could land a T1 drop pod with 10D6 Flamer shots at 11" on top of 20 bolter shots (hitting on 4+), with 4 storm bolter shots from the pod, for 285 points? Ideally 9 Sternguard and a Lieutenant for re-rolling wounds but that's a lot of carnage. Wait for T2 and those flamers and bolters will be -1 AP.

 John Prins wrote:

kingheff wrote:
With salamanders, probably, getting a lot of use from flamers and meltas and primaris only having flamer aggressors, will the mini marine get his time in the sun from the salamanders book?

Seems to me that a custom chapter with +3" range would get a lot more use from flamers than Salamanders. A Sternguard squad full of combi-flamers could land a T1 drop pod with 10D6 Flamer shots at 11" on top of 20 bolter shots (hitting on 4+), with 4 storm bolter shots from the pod, for 285 points? Ideally 9 Sternguard and a Lieutenant for re-rolling wounds but that's a lot of carnage. Wait for T2 and those flamers and bolters will be -1 AP.

The really aggravating thing about Flamers at the moment is even though that 10D6 sounds amazing, that's really just 35 hits. Storm Bolters wind up putting out 40 shots at 12" (or 24" with UM) for many fewer points. And while it's true that those still need to roll to hit, it's hard to see how it's worth the extra points (and Trait) to go with the Flamers. Hopefully Salamanders will have some awesome Flamer buffs to make that drop worthwhile.

I guess Overwatching with them would be awesome.