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This is a bit of a rant thread but I want to know ehat other people think at the moment.

In my last couple months ive noticed less and less literally any appeal to mono codex armies in Chaos. It seems like the moment I dont soup, im playing at a disadvantage against my mono codex friends who are eldar, SM and Tau respecticely.

And although it is fun to pick and choose from the Chaos range, itdoes feel bad feeling punished bringing a full Demon or full CSM army, even T-sons feel naked without demons atm.

Chaos Marines are in a bad place, because GW just convinced a bunch of people to fork over $40 (or whatever) for a V2 codex which changed next-to-nothing, only to follow it up with a stunningly strong Marine Codex/expansions. Even if they launched a new Chaos book in the next 3-4 months it'd face some back lash simply due to the recent V2 release.

I think the marine books are a step in the right direction as far as killing off soup as a massive advantage...but it'll be years before that comes around to everyone, sadly. (Possibly they could throw a big article in Chapter Approved to help this, but I doubt it when they can leverage it for more sales later).

Chaos marines got a weird version 1.5 (contrary to the cover) which brought some units in and a couple of formations. Daemons have rules all over the place and have a weird design philosophy. Renegades and Heretics have been squatted short term supposedly. Chaos knights are seemingly ok but I've no experience of them. Death Guards and Thousand Sons are selectively ok for some units but generally going to be forgotten about as a guess.

Dudeface wrote:
Chaos marines got a weird version 1.5 (contrary to the cover) which brought some units in and a couple of formations. Daemons have rules all over the place and have a weird design philosophy. Renegades and Heretics have been squatted short term supposedly. Chaos knights are seemingly ok but I've no experience of them. Death Guards and Thousand Sons are selectively ok for some units but generally going to be forgotten about as a guess.

CSM dex 1.5 is friendly, it's more like 1.1 1.5 i'd gave them for fixed traits. 2.0 would be if there was a mechanical change to the way the games played like doctrines and point changes couch CSM 13 tac SM 12 pts f.e. and we have NO alternative really beyond cultists which are now 5 pts no trait.Did we mention that it really didn't fix anything? Same units good same units bad, too much ressources required

Daemons are basically dex plaguebearers.

R&H: contrary to popular belief you can atleast hard counter 1 IH build with them, by clogging up the deathballblob thingy of doom. (altough you will need atleast 155 models in a specific setup to even just attempt that. I hope you like hordes). You can 't do the same anymore with cultists, so yay, for the first time since index age we have a reason to field one of the biggest lore wise fractions of the forces of chaos

DG has atleast some resemblance of a mono capable codex, whilest TS just lack/ feel lacking.

TS: Exist. Probably the most boring monodex that exists out there only in the same vein with Harlequins.

CKnights; it's knights, it requires soup.

That's the state of chaos.

 Elbows wrote:
Chaos Marines are in a bad place, because GW just convinced a bunch of people to fork over $40 (or whatever) for a V2 codex which changed next-to-nothing, only to follow it up with a stunningly strong Marine Codex/expansions. Even if they launched a new Chaos book in the next 3-4 months it'd face some back lash simply due to the recent V2 release.

I think the marine books are a step in the right direction as far as killing off soup as a massive advantage...but it'll be years before that comes around to everyone, sadly. (Possibly they could throw a big article in Chapter Approved to help this, but I doubt it when they can leverage it for more sales later).

To be fair, GW also released a chart that said you don't *need* the v2 Codex if you had the original and Vigilus Ablaze. Not that it mattered to most people, it's as close as the company comes to fair warning.

A few people have characterized the NuMarine Codex as the first of a new style of gameplay. The new mechanics are impressive and it must be a good time to be a Loyalist player. I suspect Imperial Fists will be at the top of the competitive apex once their supplement arrives.

While it would be nice to see CSMs get similar rules, I'm hoping GW gives NuMarines a little time in the wild to understand how differences in mechanics affect the game. 30" Bolters, Tanks with 40+ shots (and main guns that fire twice), 2 W basic infantry, universal re-roll 1s, first turn drop pods, universal ignore heavy weapon penalties, etc are all interesting advantages. But it does feel like these are fundamental changes to game mechanics, you can do stuff you weren't able to in previous editions. I'd like to know the rules-writers have taken the time to understand their impact before rolling them out across all factions.

My encounters with NuMarines using Black Legion have been hit or miss. Mostly I've been playing against Ultramarines and I know other Chapters are capable of much worse. The first games were hopeless, snipers took out my HQs, deep strike denial wrecked my Bloodletter Bombs, and Triple Repulsors were wiping out my infantry in a single turn. One player was kiteing my army with Intercessors, keeping them at 25"+ distance so he could shoot but I could not return fire.

After some tailoring, I was able to come up with a couple lists that can at least survive past turn 2. One is a Black Legion gunline consisting of 25+ lascannons, the other is a Daemon Primarch list that includes Magnus, Mortarion, Ahriman, and a Nurgle detachment. While I enjoy playing each one, they are very power game armies. Either he gets tabled or I get tabled, there's not much in between.

The other issue is I know there are hard counters to these lists that I have yet to encounter. Imagining an Imperial Fists army with tons of flyers will eat that gunline in a single turn. There's so much variation between Ultramarines / Iron Hands / Imperial Fists / Raven Guard, I'm not certain any Chaos list could take on all Chapters. In a tournament, the only way to win would be to know your meta and optimize against it.

While it would be nice to see CSMs get similar rules, I'm hoping GW gives NuMarines a little time in the wild to understand how differences in mechanics affect the game. 30" Bolters, Tanks with 40+ shots (and main guns that fire twice), 2 W basic infantry, universal re-roll 1s, first turn drop pods, universal ignore heavy weapon penalties, etc are all interesting advantages. But it does feel like these are fundamental changes to game mechanics, you can do stuff you weren't able to in previous editions. I'd like to know the rules-writers have taken the time to understand their impact before rolling them out across all factions.

Considering how fethed the internal balance allready was cough AL marine same points as WB f.e. through traits.
I do believe they have no cliue.
INfact they have so little clue they left CSM at 13 ppm.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering how fethed the internal balance allready was cough AL marine same points as WB f.e. through traits.
I do believe they have no cliue.
INfact they have so little clue they left CSM at 13 ppm.

Chapter Approved 2019 will be very interesting.

My guess is points for CSM and Cultists will remain the same, simply to give them time to work out the impact of changes with NuMarines. That way, there's just one set of variables to deal with.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering how fethed the internal balance allready was cough AL marine same points as WB f.e. through traits.
I do believe they have no cliue.
INfact they have so little clue they left CSM at 13 ppm.

Chapter Approved 2019 will be very interesting.

My guess is points for CSM and Cultists will remain the same, simply to give them time to work out the impact of changes with NuMarines. That way, there's just one set of variables to deal with.

Probably.
Maybee they overcompensate.
It's gw afterall.

 vaklor4 wrote:
This is a bit of a rant thread but I want to know ehat other people think at the moment.

In my last couple months ive noticed less and less literally any appeal to mono codex armies in Chaos. It seems like the moment I dont soup, im playing at a disadvantage against my mono codex friends who are eldar, SM and Tau respecticely.

And although it is fun to pick and choose from the Chaos range, itdoes feel bad feeling punished bringing a full Demon or full CSM army, even T-sons feel naked without demons atm.

Chaos Space Marines are in a really terrible place right now, with the new Marine codex.

The loyalist Space Marines' new rules get into the realm of hard countering MEQ armies, and that's before getting into the fact that Chaos Space Marines are literally identical to loyalist Space Marines but without all the special rules and lacking the best units and stratagems.

yeah, chaos is synonymous with soup right now.

I play thousand sons + tzeentch demons to stay fluffy and everytime i put them down, people think because i HAVE to take ahriman + demon prince, i'm tryharding.

Theyre the only good units in the codex, and i dont even run the supreme command, i go out of my way to make a detachment with rubrics and scarab occults.

The total lack in critical army roles that chaos has (good luck killing tanks with thousand sons, no , smite spam doesnt work) is the one thing that pisses me off.

thousand sons should really brought up (at least) up to par with deathguard in term of unit variety. goats don't coun't

Not Online!!! wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering how fethed the internal balance allready was cough AL marine same points as WB f.e. through traits.
I do believe they have no cliue.
INfact they have so little clue they left CSM at 13 ppm.

Chapter Approved 2019 will be very interesting.

My guess is points for CSM and Cultists will remain the same, simply to give them time to work out the impact of changes with NuMarines. That way, there's just one set of variables to deal with.

Probably.
Maybee they overcompensate.
It's gw afterall.

Let me ask you: short of making CSMs 7ppm and RCCs / LCs 10ppm, what points change could conceivably lead to CSMs competing with PEQ?

PEQ have 2 W / 30" range on their line troops, tanks that get 40+ shots per turn, and a ton of other buffs. At what cost is it worth it to take CSMs?

I think the problem is not points it's mechanics.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering how fethed the internal balance allready was cough AL marine same points as WB f.e. through traits.
I do believe they have no cliue.
INfact they have so little clue they left CSM at 13 ppm.

Chapter Approved 2019 will be very interesting.

My guess is points for CSM and Cultists will remain the same, simply to give them time to work out the impact of changes with NuMarines. That way, there's just one set of variables to deal with.

Probably.
Maybee they overcompensate.
It's gw afterall.

Let me ask you: short of making CSMs 7ppm and RCCs / LCs 10ppm, what points change could conceivably lead to CSMs competing with PEQ?

PEQ have 2 W / 30" range on their line troops, tanks that get 40+ shots per turn, and a ton of other buffs. At what cost is it worth it to take CSMs?

I think the problem is not points it's mechanics.

Rough guess, compared to peq about half price.
However compared to regular tacs about 10 to 9

And yeah i agree with the statement.

 vaklor4 wrote:
This is a bit of a rant thread but I want to know ehat other people think at the moment.

In my last couple months ive noticed less and less literally any appeal to mono codex armies in Chaos. It seems like the moment I dont soup, im playing at a disadvantage against my mono codex friends who are eldar, SM and Tau respecticely.

And although it is fun to pick and choose from the Chaos range, itdoes feel bad feeling punished bringing a full Demon or full CSM army, even T-sons feel naked without demons atm.

Welcome to 8th ed. The edition where only armies that don't shoot themselves to foot by not doing multi codex soup are marines(who got enough free bonuses mono to compensate) and those who CAN'T(and several of those aren't exactly tournament top as it is...).

 vaklor4 wrote:
And although it is fun to pick and choose from the Chaos range, itdoes feel bad feeling punished bringing a full Demon or full CSM army, even T-sons feel naked without demons atm.

While soup makes a mess of game balance it doesn't have to be a 'bad' thing. Chaos and daemons were originally one army. Thousand sons are one unit and one character from the chaos book spun out to be it's own factions without nearly enough units.

The disadvantage of not 'souping' dates back to before allies were a thing - players used to complain (and still do) about how mono-god armies taken from the daemons codex weren't competitive for instance, it's demand for all of these offshoot subfactions that has led to the range of undersized half-books that we have today.

Though this is all a separate issue from the rampant bloat and power-creep in the marine dex.

tneva82 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
This is a bit of a rant thread but I want to know ehat other people think at the moment.

In my last couple months ive noticed less and less literally any appeal to mono codex armies in Chaos. It seems like the moment I dont soup, im playing at a disadvantage against my mono codex friends who are eldar, SM and Tau respecticely.

And although it is fun to pick and choose from the Chaos range, itdoes feel bad feeling punished bringing a full Demon or full CSM army, even T-sons feel naked without demons atm.

Welcome to 8th ed. The edition where only armies that don't shoot themselves to foot by not doing multi codex soup are marines(who got enough free bonuses mono to compensate) and those who CAN'T(and several of those aren't exactly tournament top as it is...).

To be fair, theres a few armies that can and do compete in the Xenos factions. Tau and Orks for example, are both perfectly good and can hit pretty hard. If you go back before the IH release, they were both seeing pretty reasonable play.

I won't lie to you : pure CSM is absolute trash right now.

Even when the Codex was released, it had terrible balance. It was all about Cultists spam, Endless Cacophony, Votlw and Alpha Legion and that's it. Several units were already garbage (Forgefiend, Possessed, Mutilators, Raptors, almost all vehicules etc).

We had a brief surge of CSM thanks to the ridiculous Flawless Host LD but that's about it. Even the dreaded Slaaneshi Daemon Engines Circus with MoP and Delicious Agonies turned out to be all about board control because its offensive output is very bad (and it didn't do great at all during the ETC by the way, it did poorly).

We have a couple of good-excellent stratagems : Votlw, Daemonforge, Endless Cacophony and Forward operatives mainly. Unfortunately, the units we have, are not good : Obliterators insane point increase didn't help, Daemonforge is used only on Lord Discordant because it's a better Maulerfiend and the Forgefiend sucks and the dreaded chainreaper cannon is far from easy to use because we have bad transports (Rhinos and Land Raiders) and a 5 men squad of Havocs, even with T5 and several of them, can be shot off the board very easily. Oh, and Forward operatives was nerfed too. That didn't help CSM (which should be renamed Codex Alpha Legion honestly).

Anyway, Chaos is, in general, only viable as soup if you want to be really competitive.

Yeah. Going through unit by unit would be a bit much - but there are very few "good" units in the regular CSM book.

Ruthlessly I think the codex needs to be re-done from scratch, but yeah, see you in late 2020, 2021 maybe for that. I can imagine the crying would drown the world - but CSM should probably be rebalanced to have 2 wounds like Primaris. Call it a benefit of lurking in the warp. Otherwise you have to keep knocking their points down, and really all you are doing is making T4/3+ save (and pretty crap bolters) efficient. I mean at 8-9 points you would have some incredibly tough bodies - but it wouldn't be very interactive or interesting.

I feel the CSM V2.0 book is really bad, because, rather like the Ork Codex in 6th, it means you are unlikely to get much good while everyone else moves to the new version of the game.

To be a Chaos fan is suffering.

Yeah. Going through unit by unit would be a bit much - but there are very few "good" units in the regular CSM book.

Ruthlessly I think the codex needs to be re-done from scratch, but yeah, see you in late 2020, 2021 maybe for that.

Codex CSM V2 feels like it was made in a vacuum.

CSMM is an army that heavily relies on buffs to improve average-tiers units (the various Daemon Engines are a prime example of that for a various of reason : lack of resilience, lack of damage output etc.

I'm fine with that. But where the hell are our bodyguards to prevent a MoP, a Sorcerer, a Greater Possessed etc to be shot off from the board in a sniper heavy meta (especially since Eliminators can even ignore LoS and the MoP has to move with the various units he buffs) ? I would be fine with CSM, instead of having access to bodyguards, having access to a stratagem for example that allows a Character to "steal" the lifeforce of a friendly unit in case of emergency to prevent it from drying (it would also be fluffy since most CSM are egoïstical ***holes). Yeah I know, Daemonkin Ritualist allows that for a MoP. But it sucks because it can't be used in a emergency and the vast majority of players will kill in a single turn. Instead, we got ... this ... thing.

Don't get me wrong, I love the new models and I love to kitbash / convert my own models. But the current Codex doesn't make a lot of sense in regards to internal balance even if you don't take into consideration the mostly worthless Traits.

*sigh* At least I can do some quite awesome kitbash with AoS and the recent units we got !

Rumor is that pa2 will include relics warlord traits maybe strategems but no legion traits. I'm hoping this means that legion traits are coming in soon to be released supplements. Otherwise mono csm are going to be outclassed by sm. Even with new legion traits most codex options will still be underwhelming unless the new rules are pretty fething good. That's why I hate it whenever people start talking about fw bans. Mono csm need fw units to compete with other factions codex options. Csm 2.0 was a bad joke to start with and sm 2.0 made it even worse.

So, why don't you field a 'soup' then?

What's the objection?

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, why don't you field a 'soup' then?

What's the objection?

The same reason I don't play tau or eldar. I want to play csm.

If some combination of Psychic Awakening and Chapter Approved updates CSM to be on par with new marines, then we'll be in the best place we've been since 3.5 codex (assuming we get actual good rules.)

CSM/DG/TS need:
- A trait overhaul with 2 part traits that effect more stuff
- Some rule buffs that are equivalent in power to Doctrines+Super doctrine bonus (marks? warp gifts?)
- Maybe some strat balance so all their power isn't packed into VOTLW and Cacophany
- Some incentive/bonus for mono-faction lists (perhaps exempting summoned daemons)
- Some points tweaks (CSM, terminators, possessed)

If Phoenix Rising is anything to go off, this could be accomplished with Psychic Awakening+Chapter Approved. If they don't do it there, then we can assume that CSM will be crap for a couple years at least. But I'll wait and see before I declare the sky is falling.