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After binging The Expanse, loving Battlestar Galactica, etc... the wife and I were thinking of finding a game of that sort. Other than Battlefleet Gothic, are there any supported games that aren't entirely unwieldy or overly complex while still having the whole capital ships, escorts, etc... kind of feel?

We don't love Star Wars Armada, and Firestorm is a dead system, correct? Anything else out there? I feel like Firestorm is close to what we wanted, as it had ideas like boarding parties, etc... but I think when it died it was considered a grossly imbalanced system?

While I haven't played it, I heard good things about Full Thrust:

https://shop.groundzerogames.co.uk/full-thrust-starships.html

If you don't mind a more pulpy look, War Rocket is very fun:

http://shop.hydraminiatures.com/index.php?cPath=40&osCsid=8642abac0230c9febfd471e4b9e7eab2

Firestorm Armada is only kind of dead - it was bought by Warcradle / Wayland, but I don't know if they're going to do anything with it. I like Dropfleet Commander, but I'm not sure how popular it is in the States.

Dropfleet Commander is pretty good. You don’t need to use alllll the rules for planetary combat if you want a good space battle. The miniatures are the best plastic spaceship kits in tabletop gaming today, and TTCombat is supporting the game with new minis every few months.

Firestorm Armada is semi-dead, it will be rebooted, eventually, but with new minis and updated rules.

Dropfleet is a spiritual heir to Battlefleet Gothic, the same guy wrote the rules, many of the core mechanics are similar or identical, and the core 4 factions in each game have somewhat similar playstyles to one another. Dropfleet has been heavily streamlined and modernized however and is much less clunky and unwieldy as a result. The major difference is that Dropfleet is a much harder scifi setting from 40k, so there are certain fluff assumptions made which impact the way the game plays. The first is that they assume the vast majority of space combat occurs in gravity wells rather than deep space or the interplanetary void, as such the rules are designed around 3 "altitude" levels that the ships move through with the goal of delivering dropships to planet surface or orbiting stations, etc. rather than simply being in the middle of a solar system, etc. This is easy enough to mod out if you want to just fight a more traditional "void navy" battle in deep space though i feel the gsme loses a but of its rock/paper/scissors type inteeraction as a result, but there are certain ships in each faction that are essentially atmospheric and can only operate at the lowest altitude level, youll need to decide how to handle these. The other big difference is that in space weapon ranges are effectively unlimited so what matters is not your ability to reach a target but rather your ability to see it - as such your weapon range is basically variable dependant on your targets "signature" which is itself variable depending on what actions your opponent takes - things like firing weapons, or revving up your engines will raise your signature while other actions you take might decrease it. As such theres a bit of a cat and mouse dynamic to the gameplay as sound maneuvering and signature management is needed in order to minimize the risk to yourself while you position yourself for maximum striking potential.

That sounds really cool, I really like the idea of the signature mechanic.

As was mentioned in the other thread, you can also check out the "Call to Arms" series of space fleet games: there was Babylon 5, Star Fleet (Star Trek), and Noble Armada (generic). I've only played the last two, and they were both fun, with slightly different mechanics than Gothic, and more ship durability as well. I couldn't tell you how available the rules are via ebay or other sources, though.

Second A Call to Arms as a good fun fleet combat system.

I have experience with the Babylon 5 variant of A Call to Arms. It was great, though it had some bad balance issues with certain factions, but at this point its a dead game system that has been officially out of print for over a decade. You can still find the minis online though they aren't necessarily cheap, but finding an opponent may be a challenge.

While we're on the topic of dead game systems, you can try doing some research into Halo Fleet Battles. I dont know much about the game other than the fact that the company behind it (Spartan Games, same as Firestorm) collapsed a few months after launch, so they didn't release much for it and what they did release commands a big price tag from collectors. There is an active facebook community trying to keep the game alive through community created rules and minis that can be purchased from shapeways and whatnot if you're interested, but again its not cheap and finding opponents may be an issue. Of all the games discussed, this is the only one that I would consider to actually be "fleet scale" - a typically fleet is several dozen ships, whereas all the other games discussed typically feature 10-20 ships tops, sometimes less. The way HFB keeps such a large number of vessels manageable is by having multiple ships on a single base - typically this would be a cruiser (or whatever they refer to it as) with 2-3 escort frigates/destroyers, etc, although in some cases you have a pair of cruisers or a trio of escorts or what-have-you as a base instead. Depending on the number and type of ships involved, the stats for that base would vary (referred to as a "formation", IIRC there were "reinforced", "supported", "paired", etc.) to represent their linked firepower and the role each ship filled in the formation. Larger ships like battleships/dreadnoughts are typically just a single model.

+1 for Full Thrust

the game itself is fun to play and works well up to fleet level

its biggest advantage is that there are not only lists (and models) for the FT universe but also good rules to develop your own ships

therefore you will find ship lists for Battlestar Galactica (made to be used with larger Scale Models) , Star Trek and Babylon 5

Well that's a tough one. since you want simple. other than BFG the only one that comes to mind is mongooses Babylon 5 system "a call to arms" . it is basically the same system they use for their WWII victory at sea system as well.

Unfortunately unlike B5 wars, which is the best Newtonian based scific space skirmish system IMHO(but also very complex by comparison), that has been converted into star trek, star wars, battlestar galactica, wing commander, stargate, macros/robotech, battlefleet gothic etc..

the "a call to arms" system is only for Babylon 5.

You can get the control sheet and such for it here

http://www.ibisfightclub.tk/

the B5 wars stuff can be found here if you want to look into it.

http://b5warsvault.wikidot.com/

*reposted from the duplicate thread

"Supported" and "simple" is a tough one. Lot's of games out there for capital ship combat, but it's a real niche compared to other table top miniature games.

Battle Fleet Gothic: No longer supported by GW, but the rules are available online for free, there are several 3D printing places still making ships, and there is an online following.

Drop Fleet Commander: Spiritual successor to BFG, written by Andy Chambers, same guy that did BFG. Fleets play in gravity wells (around planets; the planet is the "table" and you fight above it with the ships). Can't recommend this game as what goes on with the ships has almost nothing to do with winning the game. You win the game by landing troops on planets/stations and fighting this abhorrent "dice war" sub-game with completely different game mechanics from the space battles. It's like a completely different game meant to simulate the other game this company produces (Drop Zone Commander). You could wipe out the entire opponents fleet in orbit, but if they have more troops on the ground, you lose. Consequently, there are all these fantastic ships, but you end up taking 80% troop carriers so you can win. Also, the company was bought out two years ago by TTCombat that has done... not much to promote the game. They came out with a new faction, and they keep releasing bigger and bigger ships (Dreadnoughts, and now Monitors, ships that are so big (list restricted) and expensive (points and $$), that you don't see them in regular play. The game was also broken very badly with Corvettes- small escort style ships that are stupid cheap and can... I could go on and on with how much this game needs a second edition, but I think you get the picture.

Firestorm Armada was a good fleet based game until Spartan Games abruptly folded. Now owned by Warcradle Studios, the game has languished. Warcradle is more of a game distribution company than game company. Right now, they are pushing Wild West Exodus way more than anything else, with a new version of Dystopian Wars on the way sometime this year. You can usually find the models on the second hand market or once again, Shapeways.

Starfleet Battles (SFB) An oldie (from the 1970's!), but a goodie. Still being printed by the Amarillo Design Bureau (ADB). Set in the Star Trek universe, it can be a complicated game, but you can choose what rules or "tech levels" to use in you games. This was the game system B5 A Call to Arms is based on.

B5 A Call to Arms was created by a couple of the SFB creative team that left ADB and formed Mongoose Publishing. Game has very similar mechanics to SFB. Mongoose no longer prints or supports the game (think they lost the license for B5 back in the early 00's). Has a large online following with several community mods for playing just about any sci-fi universe.

Full Thrust I can't say much about this game; I haven't played it. Came out in 1992 I believe. Still being made and supported by Ground Zero Games out of England. Has background and fluff, but that is entirely optional as the system is designed to be modular and playable with just about any models you have. You'll just have to be a bit... "creative".

Saganami Island Tactical Simulator by Ad Astra Games. If you are a Honor Harrington fan, this is the game for you. Came out in 2005. Warning: Probably one of the most complex, and realistic space battle games on the market. Good luck with the math/trigonometry as the game is a fully realized 3D game that requires you to compute vectors (bonus if you are good at Linear Algebra/Calculus for vectors). They try to simplify it as much as possible, but when you talk about relativistic physics and trying to hit a ship from 50 million KM's away on a parabolic course traveling at .67c with an arc of 21° below the plane of the Ecliptic and 65° off axis of the firing ship... sounds incredible, and the rules do a good job of translating that into dice rolls.

After this, you really get into the "Beer and Pretzels" games. Star Trek Attack Wing (Wizkids), Star Wars Armada (Fantasy Flight Games), Battlestar Galactica (Ares Games)... these games typically have prepainted models, require little set up time, and can be played very quickly (within an hour). There are also more than a few "fleet style" board games that are worth looking into as well.

Head over to Board Game Geek and use the search function and you will find more space fleet games then you can shake a stick at, along with reviews and commentary on each one.

It really is amazing that so many space fleet games get released and never catch on, sorta like mech games. The corner stone of a lot of sci-fi, and yet, not very popular with gamers.

Another important question to ask is whether you want hex-based movement or free-measuring.

The Call to Arms system (which is still published for Star Fleet: A Call to Arms, now by ADB after they bought back the license they sold to Mongoose who wanted to use the setting for their system that was Noble Armada) is pretty good for fleet based, free-form movement but is fairly specific to the Star Fleet Universe (based on Star Trek), with no rules for ship construction.

Firestorm Armada was decent, but like others have mentioned is in a limbo spot; Warcradle now owns the IP and has plans to re-release, but that's at least a couple years out.

Full Thrust is pretty solid and you can do whatever you want, but it is a hex-based system (though there might be non-hex rules, not 100% sure). Starmada is kinda in the same vein as Full Thrust with some slight differences.

Squadron Strike, Saganami, and Assault Vector: Tactical by Ad Astra are based on the same engine, and very complex since they try to simulate full 3d. Also hex based.

One of the granddaddies is Star Fleet Battles, which has been in continuous publication since like 1978. Extremely detailed, but not quite as bad as it seems. Not really good for fleet actions unless you have more than one player per side, as the energy allocation for each ship is detailed enough that it is taxing to control more than 3 ships. Hex based for the most part but there is a rule section for free-form. This is my starship game of choice, honestly, and has been since the late 80s when I got first introduced to it. Bonus points here, though, is that if you buy models for this, you can use them for SFB, Federation Commander (also from ADB; a little more streamlined version of the game), A Call to Arms: Starfleet, and even Starmada "officially." I've seen plenty of folks use the models for Full Thrust, too.

Mike Hutchison, designer of Gaslands, has a starship game scheduled for mid 2020: A Billion Suns. As an Osprey book it will be model agnostic, and since Gaslands was a load of fun I'll definitely be picking this one up when it comes out.

The number of in-production free-form starship miniatures games currently is pretty low, sadly. (Armada/X-Wing are free form and probably the biggest right now; yes, movement templates are still free-form since there's no hex/square grid.)

Just checking out the free rules for Full Thrust v2, the game is open table, inch-related free measuring. No hexes. Unfortunately either the mechanics are too much for me to get other people interested, or it's a problem with the rules' verbage. Because at first read, it looks pretty complicated to a person who is more used to games like Battlefleet Gothic, which is more of a mid-level complexity.

But it has the benefit of being miniatures agnostic, and has tons of free material, including the rules.

As a fan of the show, I would say the best way to simulate The Expanse space combat is with Full Thrust, because the rules are totally free and the first of the two also-free "Fleet Books" on Ground Zero Games introduces a vector-based movement system as an optional rule. Then not only is the only investment if you want to have ship miniatures, you can make anything you want as a ship, and it has 2D Vector movement without needing to be a math genius like with 3D.

For hex based games, Red Alert Fleet Combat just came out, and it seems pretty streamlined to me: there are only four kinds of ships, but you get huge fleets of them in the box. From my read of the rules it seems to be about as complex as Horizon Wars, and potentially mini agnostic if you and your opponent can agree on which stat line works with which ship. The ships included in the box are one-piece plastic, but have a great Babylon 5ish/Stargateish human faction look to them.

I would definitely like to see another fleet-scale space battle game hit the market, because other than Battlefleet Gothic, Firestorm: Armada and maybe(?) Dropfleet, there's not a lot out there that isn't actually a mis-named "strikeforce-level" spaceship game. Most of the games available really bog down after each player starts fielding more than a half dozen or so miniatures (not counting fighters that are usually counters). It's been a long time since I saw a good game Like Battlefleet Gothic or Firestorm Armada, where each player could field a Battleship, 4-8 cruisers, and several frigate squadrons and have that be merely a medium- to large-sized fleet.

Games like Star Wars: Armada (which I really like), and Full Thrust (especially once you start using vector movement) and even Age of Sail games like Black Sails or Galleys and Galleons (because most sailing ship games and 2D spaceship games function very similarly unless they are like X-Wing) are really just skirmish games with ship models instead of foot troopers.

But that probably works best for a realistic setting like the Expanse, where each fleet might have a couple of ships circling each other with cool vector-based countermoves.

 Tamwulf wrote:

Drop Fleet Commander: Spiritual successor to BFG, written by Andy Chambers, same guy that did BFG. Fleets play in gravity wells (around planets; the planet is the "table" and you fight above it with the ships). Can't recommend this game as what goes on with the ships has almost nothing to do with winning the game. You win the game by landing troops on planets/stations and fighting this abhorrent "dice war" sub-game with completely different game mechanics from the space battles. It's like a completely different game meant to simulate the other game this company produces (Drop Zone Commander). You could wipe out the entire opponents fleet in orbit, but if they have more troops on the ground, you lose. Consequently, there are all these fantastic ships, but you end up taking 80% troop carriers so you can win. Also, the company was bought out two years ago by TTCombat that has done... not much to promote the game. They came out with a new faction, and they keep releasing bigger and bigger ships (Dreadnoughts, and now Monitors, ships that are so big (list restricted) and expensive (points and $$), that you don't see them in regular play. The game was also broken very badly with Corvettes- small escort style ships that are stupid cheap and can... I could go on and on with how much this game needs a second edition, but I think you get the picture.

For the record I disagree with everything here (and most of it is simply factually wrong - Monitors for example are a smaller ships, roughly destroyer sized, you get 3 of them for 20 GBP which is the same price as 2 cruisers - sounds like someone played the game once when it very first released years ago with someone who had no idea what they were doing and carried forward some false impressions of gameplay).

Starfleet Battles (SFB) An oldie (from the 1970's!), but a goodie. Still being printed by the Amarillo Design Bureau (ADB). Set in the Star Trek universe, it can be a complicated game, but you can choose what rules or "tech levels" to use in you games. This was the game system B5 A Call to Arms is based on.

I may be confusing this with another Star Trek game, but if its the one Im thinking of it is not a fleet scale game, trying to manage more than 2-3 ships per side will cause a single game to run in excess of a day due to game complexity - it has more in common with B5 Fleet Action or B5 Wars (whatever the other B5 space combat game is) than it does with A Call to Arms.


A good resource is Star Ranger - http://www.star-ranger.com/Home.htm

The site hasn't been updated really in about 5 years I think, but there really hasn't been much published in this area since then (at least nothing that we haven't already discussed here), so while it may not be up to date or current its a good research tool to get you started.
Anyway, another couple games to look into are Starmada and Iron Stars. Never played either and I know nothing about them other than that they exist. A quick look suggests the forums are still active though, so maybe you'll find something there.

Check out Starmada:

https://www.wargamevault.com/product/51529/Starmada-The-Admiralty-Edition-Core-Rulebook?src=hottest_filtered&filters=0_0_40014_0&manufacturers_id=489

Fleet rules: https://www.wargamevault.com/product/90288/Starmada-Fleet-Ops?src=also_purchased&filters=0_0_40014_0&manufacturers_id=489

BGG Pages:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/33259/starmada-admiralty-edition

BGG Fleet rules: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/96816/starmada-fleet-ops

I may be confusing this with another Star Trek game, but if its the one Im thinking of it is not a fleet scale game, trying to manage more than 2-3 ships per side will cause a single game to run in excess of a day due to game complexity - it has more in common with B5 Fleet Action or B5 Wars (whatever the other B5 space combat game is) than it does with A Call to Arms.

B5 wars is nowhere near as complex as star fleet battles, it is complex and is a skirmish game (although using the star trek rules it goes quite a bit faster since the ships themselves are less complex via rules like gravitic drives (negating the concern fro thruster facings) but you can play a small fleet engagement in a 3-4 hours. the key is remembering you don't need to "win" to win. sometimes you score a victory condition or do enough damage then withdraw.


We had an old republic setting game for the star wars mod where the main guns on the separatist side a banking clan cruiser blew out his shield generator by overloading it trying to recharge it faster. so he withdrew instead of facing down a damaged but combat capable venator that would have killed him. thus ending the game.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
For hex based games, Red Alert Fleet Combat just came out, and it seems pretty streamlined to me: there are only four kinds of ships, but you get huge fleets of them in the box. From my read of the rules it seems to be about as complex as Horizon Wars, and potentially mini agnostic if you and your opponent can agree on which stat line works with which ship. The ships included in the box are one-piece plastic, but have a great Babylon 5ish/Stargateish human faction look to them.

This is a good option. It’s a genuine fleet battle game.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/250467/red-alert-space-fleet-warfare

Well, sort of. There's no movement as such when taken in relation to "Starship Combat" games. It's really just a retheme of all the other Command and color games. Every review pretty much sums it up as if you've played Battlelore, or Battlecry, or one of the other Ancient Battle games, it's pretty much that with some tweaks.

Starship combat games, as they are usually thought of, really need a sense of outmaneuvering other ships with movement and facing, taking fire arcs into account, etc. BUT, the ships from Red Alert look like they would be great for use in other games.

Yes things you can do in a 3d space environment need to be represented but it is difficult on a 2d playing surface. when you add in things like rolls, flips, slides, combat pivots and all the other things that Newtonian physics require you start getting into a bit more complexity like the B5 wars system which is why it is a skirmish system and not a large fleet system.

Things like a call to arms and victory at sea have that simplicity but you have to modify them in house if you want to use them in other universes, or just pick ships that resemble what you want close enough. I remember when firestorm came out, a few people were playing it but it never really took off at my FLGS. at least with that system the ship templates were generic enough since they were not tied to a specific popular franchise.

One thing I really liked in Firestorm was that even though most of the combat was 2D, you could roll a ship over to protect a damaged side from an enemy. That was a cool little nod to space physics that I haven't really seen in other games (edit: I see you can do this with Full Thrust, too).

Incidentally, have any fan communities tried to "fix" Firestorm Armada during its Warcradle lull? I think I would really enjoy giving that one a go, if someone who had experience with the system went in and fixed its most troublesome imbalances.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
One thing I really liked in Firestorm was that even though most of the combat was 2D, you could roll a ship over to protect a damaged side from an enemy. That was a cool little nod to space physics that I haven't really seen in other games (edit: I see you can do this with Full Thrust, too).

BattleSpace you could do it as well - its a cool thing.

Incidentally, have any fan communities tried to "fix" Firestorm Armada during its Warcradle lull? I think I would really enjoy giving that one a go, if someone who had experience with the system went in and fixed its most troublesome imbalances.

Be interesting to know - one of things I did not like about it was the way they handled fighters - ACTA: B5 does it well. Dropfleet also handles them really badly.

If anyone wants the ACTA: B5 rules (and/or my fan made packs) - let me know...

I'd also caution against relying on games to be "supported". That's a somewhat bizarre thing that is only tied to the "release a model every month or two" kind of sales gimmick run by larger companies, like Games Workshop and FFG.

If you simply mean "supported" with regard to appropriate miniatures being available, that's a different story. Luckily 3D printing can cover most out-of-print games if that becomes an issue.

A quality set of rules doesn't need support, particularly if it's generic and you can use whatever miniatures you want. There's nothing at all stopping you from gaming a space fleet game written in the 1980's if you want...as long as you can find appropriate contents and miniatures. A lot of people get far too hung up on "support" meaning the company is pumping out products or info every couple of weeks. That's not something that is necessary for a good game.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
One thing I really liked in Firestorm was that even though most of the combat was 2D, you could roll a ship over to protect a damaged side from an enemy. That was a cool little nod to space physics that I haven't really seen in other games (edit: I see you can do this with Full Thrust, too).

This is basically the only thing I actually liked about Firestorm Armada and probably the only real mechanical innovation in the game. The truth is, unless you're leaning hard into Newtonian/vector physics (and even then) the 3rd dimension in space games is largely unnecessary as there is no such thing as a "high ground" or an altitude/height advantage (unlike in atmospheric or wet naval combat) since space extends infinitely in all directions, and for the most part you would expect that any engagement between 2 forces would become relatively planar anyway (unless, again, you lean hard into Newtonian/Vector physics and have fleets maneuvering based on gravity and orbital dynamics, in which case they have limited means to reorient in a manner that could be abstracted as planar).

The only thing that the 2d abstraction misses in the potential for a ship to be upside-down relative to an opponent (something which could theoretically occur even in a planar engagement). In that sense, Firestorm was successful in distilling something complex down into something very simple with a relatively simple rule.

Starfleet Battles has a shorter version/younger sibling in Federation Commander. Far simpler rules, though I will say the impulse system is a bit clunky. Even has two scales depending on whether you want a small number of ships or a larger number.

I absolutely love Babylon 5 Wars and it's inertial movement system. I also like how distinct faction plays. Whereas Starfleet Battles and by extension Federation Commander have each factions ships mirror each other, just with their faction's weapons and turn rates, almost every ship for every faction in B5 Wars is distinct. One faction's escort may be designed to hang close to intercept incoming fire, another's may focus down enemy fighters, and still another's may be a gunboat with capital ship grade weapons.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Starfleet Battles has a shorter version/younger sibling in Federation Commander. Far simpler rules, though I will say the impulse system is a bit clunky. Even has two scales depending on whether you want a small number of ships or a larger number.

I absolutely love Babylon 5 Wars and it's inertial movement system. I also like how distinct faction plays. Whereas Starfleet Battles and by extension Federation Commander have each factions ships mirror each other, just with their faction's weapons and turn rates, almost every ship for every faction in B5 Wars is distinct. One faction's escort may be designed to hang close to intercept incoming fire, another's may focus down enemy fighters, and still another's may be a gunboat with capital ship grade weapons.

Not managed to pick up B5 Wars - usually miss it on ebay or its too expensive....... Given that ACTA:B5 too alot of stuff from B Wars the fleets do remain quite different.

I also recall having some great games of Battlefleet Gothic using B5 and Star Trek ships with ststas we made up, same with Full Thrust.

I was quite sad that Dropfleet did not work that well as was hoping for a new starship game.

 Elbows wrote:
I'd also caution against relying on games to be "supported". That's a somewhat bizarre thing that is only tied to the "release a model every month or two" kind of sales gimmick run by larger companies, like Games Workshop and FFG.

If you simply mean "supported" with regard to appropriate miniatures being available, that's a different story. Luckily 3D printing can cover most out-of-print games if that becomes an issue.

A quality set of rules doesn't need support, particularly if it's generic and you can use whatever miniatures you want. There's nothing at all stopping you from gaming a space fleet game written in the 1980's if you want...as long as you can find appropriate contents and miniatures. A lot of people get far too hung up on "support" meaning the company is pumping out products or info every couple of weeks. That's not something that is necessary for a good game.

By supported my intention was simply to mean "by anyone". Fans often keep games healthy and clean up rules better than the IP holder, so if anyone is keeping a game vaguely up to date, I consider it supported.