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Title says it all really!

I'd be interested to hear of your views on wraiths and wraith use within eldar, especially that of blades and guard. The two versions of the model that are the least practical/easy to magnetize and yet which also offer up a variety of weapon and role choices.

Wraithblades - quite expensive per model, with ghostblades offering weaker attacks, but more of them; or there's the heavier hitting ghostaxe which also comes with a bonus 4+ inv save. If I have the quick glance at point updates and have them right both these options now come in at the same points value (Ghostaxe and shield went down by 10 points) This makes for costs of :
Ghostaxe and force shield 175 350
Ghost swords 175 350

For 5 and 10 man teams.

For practical transport considerations the cheapest Wave Serpent cost is 129 and can only move units of 5

Number of attacks for 5 man unit:
Blades: 2 base attacks +1 attack from weapon for - 5*(3*4/6) = 10 hits
Ghost Axe: 2 base attacks, -1 from dice rolls to hit - 5*(2*3/6) = 5 hits

If I have the point cost correct from the changes (and assuming there weren't any changes to the blades) then we can see that the blades give around double the number of attacks that the axe can generate. With blades dealing a single wound and axes dealing D3 this creates an interesting situation. Fewer hits means more chance to save from an axe attack, but each attack that gets through will deal more damage. Meanwhile with blades more attacks might make it through, but each one will only deal a single wound. Of course the axe also comes with a shield, so the unit is more likely to last longer, even once in close combat.


Wraithguard - again two basic options of one cheaper lighter hitter, the other more costly, but hitting harder. However complicating this are range differences, but only of around 4 inches. With D-scyths at 8inchs and wraithcannon at 12inches. So whilst that's an important difference, they are both still going to bring the unit nearer to close combat and charge ranges.
With the prices we get:
D-Scyth 225 450
Wraithcannon 200 400



So we can see that the close combat variations are cheaper to put on the table, but in contrast might well need support to make it into combat which would increase their costs yet again. Of course the trade off is taking a cheaper waveserpent as a transport and helping ensure a 5 unit team makes it into combat; or taking a 10 unit team and spending more points with the gamble that more than 5 manage to make it into the early phases of close combat.
Of course the ranged versions don't have super long ranges on their guns and the D-scythes in particular might well also want a transport to get close to the action to unleash their attacks.

Whilst for the guard there's a slight point difference between the two options, however their shorter ranges mean that they either need a screen or to get a transport of their own to get into range. Both units appear to offer a strong anti-armour role with a focus on fewer attacks; although the Dscythe is far more reliable at hitting; whilst the Cannon might hit far less often ,but it can deal far more damage per hit. To me this suggests that the Cannon is good for picking off single targets whilst the scythes are better suited to dealing with smaller units of elite yet low wound count models.

 Overread wrote:
Number of attacks for 5 man unit:
Blades: 2 base attacks +1 attack from weapon for - 5*(3*3/6) = 7.5 hits
Ghost Axe: 2 base attacks, -1 from dice rolls to hit - 5*(2*4/6) = 6.7 hits

Your accuracy ratios are backwards. Hitting on 3s is 4/6, hitting on 4s is 3/6.

Swords: 5(3(3/6)) = 10 hits
Axes: 5(2(4/6)) = 5 hits

(Not got my melee guys to the table, so theory crafting here)

Swords are S6, axes S7. That’s an odd breakpoint. Still wounding guardsmen on a 2+, MEQ on a 3+. Your only real breaks are vs. T6 stuff (how much of that is there) and going from a 5+ to a 4+ for carving open rhinos and many other vehicles.

You are landing half as many hits, but doing D3 damage with them. Vs. chaff, irrelevant, but against primaris and other beefier targets can be worth while. Generally landing more hits is better then more damage, but this helps tip the scale a little towards axes. Eldar have a number of ways of cleaning chaff, do we need an expensive elite pick to do so?

Then there is the 4++. This is big, IMHO. I find my Eldar to be a sublime army. In the chemestry sense where they go straight from a solid to a gas. The second an Eldar steps out of his transport, he gets to take one shot, then he is vaporized. When I built mine, I wanted something that could actually put a boot on an objective and keep it there. Which is why I built mine with axes.

 MinMax wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Number of attacks for 5 man unit:
Blades: 2 base attacks +1 attack from weapon for - 5*(3*3/6) = 7.5 hits
Ghost Axe: 2 base attacks, -1 from dice rolls to hit - 5*(2*4/6) = 6.7 hits

Your accuracy ratios are backwards. Hitting on 3s is 4/6, hitting on 4s is 3/6.

Swords: 5(3(3/6)) = 10 hits
Axes: 5(2(4/6)) = 5 hits

Ack thanks for the correction! I made the classic blunder of putting the to hit number instead of the actual number of chances on a D6! I've edited the first post to reflect this so that the thread at least starts a bit more sensibly. Thankfully it also means that there's a better difference between swords and axes.


Nevelon - I can agree the swords do seem to be best targeted toward more chaff-heavy units. Perhaps a good unit to take if you know you'll go up against Tyranids or IG swarming armies; but not as good against marines or other generally middle to elite class armies. The improved save certainly makes a big difference. I'm leaning toward axes being more suited to a general option to take for close combat; meanwhile the swords might be of more use if you're going for a wraith themed force (thus not bringing the other chaff dealing units) or perhaps if you know in advance that you'll be dealing with a lot of weaker chaff units.

Of course the next question is whether its better to march them over the battlefield; team up small units with transports or make larger 10 man units to take into battle. Each has their benefits, the risk being its very easy to get up to near 1/4 of your army points (in a standard 2K game). That's a lot of points in a single unit.

The D-scythe wraithguard are extremely hard to make work, because they can't shoot out of DS the way the wraithcannon ones can.

The combat wraiths are really hard to make work because they're so expensive, and they put out such a low volume of attacks relative to their points cost, that they're really only good against very elite targets. But those are the same targets they're least likely to actually be able to get to.

You don't want blades fighting chaff, they'll just get tarpitted and never do anything to make back their points.

For CC wraithguard the 4++ shield trumps all else for me. Also, just add in whatever buffs you want with them, because you will use them.
Ranged is tougher. The d-scythe is scary scary, but everyone knows and so getting them to do anything is really rough. So they're auto transport. You have pointed out the extra cost of a transport so no need to go into that.
I have had some success with the basic gun, because my army has units higher ion enemy's priority lists. So they get a turn to move and shoot. I just hate the one shot thing.

Wish I had better advice. My eldar army is about synergy and tactical play, so it becomes very hard to give straight point for point ratings. A unit of D-scythes who get to start the game behind cover, then get a full move because Banshees have tied up/distracted a lot of the enemy shooting can be incredible.

Axe armed wraiths hitting things with rerolls can also be brutal. But again, it takes an army to get them there. A wave serpent might be ignored because its a tougher target, when banshees, warp spiders and or other things are all over the enemy's line.

The real issue is this version has added way too many high strength, high wound anti-vehicle weapons that also get too many shots (sure, my opinion, but it is how I feel). There are too many Large things on the table that can do 6+ shots doing 3-6 damage. It has hurt units like the wraithguard (which partially fall under the same category. It just seems every army is now 5-7 of these units covered by 50 wounds of chaff) Game really needs to somehow get back to anti-vehicle/monster and anti-infantry not being good for the opposite as well.

I wish you luck, and will point out that I did successfully magnetize mine for all options.

I have toyed with the idea of running ten blades with axes and foot slogging them up the table. I'd want to take a couple of spiritseers or warlocks for protect and quicken so they can hopefully get in position for a turn two charge. Until I build up five more axes I can't try it out but it should make for one hell of a distraction carnifex if nothing else!

I’m currently working on an iyanden wraithhost force in a meta with only 4*4 tables, so been finding I thankfully don’t need to spend points on a transport with an army gimmick that leads to a low enough model count as-is. My only real break from direct Wraith units so far is a few jetbikes to cap out lists that come to a number of points where I couldn’t just add another wraith unit.

Been finding it goes well, with the only army I’ve felt particularly helpless against so far being a rather sharply optimised Tau list where I had nothing to really clear the shield drone chaff out the way to get to the important units.

On the charge it's 78% more hits rather than 100% more hits with blades. If you're foot-slogging the Blades are too squishy.

Shining Spears pay 180 pts for 13 W T4 3+/4++ (4++ only vs shooting), shield Wraiths pay 175 for 15 W T6 3+/4++. That's essentially just 2 less wounds, at 2 lower toughness for more than 3x Movement. It's no real contest as far as I see. Either I will ignore them and they'll barely get their pts back if they have shields or I'll quickly end them if they have swords. Being a threat turn 2 after using quickening on your Wraithblades twice is just too slow. Maybe as a counter-charge unit hiding in a ruin scaring off Daemon Princes.

Add in a Wave Serpent and you've got 10,5 Shining Spears or a unit of 9 and halfway to another unit of 3, that'll give you a good shot at a turn 1 charge with buffs piled on top and the option of hopping over enemy screens and getting to the juicy bits. If your opponents charges your Wave Serpent they can prevent you from piling out from the front, if not entirely. You can charge around and pile forwards, that'll get you 3-10" ahead of your Wave Serpent instead of the 10-20" you want. That's if you throw buffs on top and your opponent otherwise ignores it, if you don't buff the Wave Serpent then it's probably dead, you'll use a CP to save a Wraith in the crash (but there's a good possibility you lose 35 pts in the crash even after a re-roll). Now the Wraiths have no buffs and they get slaughtered if they don't have shields, even with shields they can get charged and they're wet noodles with 2 attacks hitting on 4+, you're statistically unlikely to kill a unit of 5 Primaris.

Yeah, the sad truth is that wraiths are just in a bad place in 8th edition. 8th is set up to favor volume of attacks and speed over durability and strength of each individual attack, and that just leaves wraiths with little to work with.

I get a lot of mileage out of the auto-run 6 stratagem and using Fire and Fade to move Wraiths again after shooting to be move further forwards and be ready for the next turn instead of retreating.

Also, deploying ten from the webway for 1cp, but positioning to fire at two valuable targets helps the manoeuvrability.

Played some games with my favorite Eldar units.

Wraithblades (blades): when they eventually get into combat they, for me, never do much.
Wraithblades (axes): with a 4++ can foot-slog and have an impact when finding a target.
I will never take them in groups of 10, even in groups of 5 it's sometimes hard to get them around the table and all into combat, let alone 10.

Wraithguard (wraithcannon): awesome unit, drop them in and annihilate a unit .
Wraithguard (scythes): out of range when dropping in, can surprise a flyer when walking around.

If you really wanna play them well warlocks/spiritseers are a must with quicken/protection.

Remember they are infantry, so they can walk through walls which comes in handy pretty often (fire... and fade through a wall ).