Author |
Message |
|
|
|
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
|
2020/03/23 11:48:23
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Regular Dakkanaut
A random ditch next to a zoo (self imposed exile)
|
I've just reached the end of book 2 of the SoT, The Lost and the Damned, and there are a couple of references made by characters like the Crimson Apostle Layak that mention Lorgar being "faithless in the end" and of Lorgar being banished by Horus.
Is there a book or short story anywhere in the HH series where this confrontation of Horus banishing Lorgar takes place, and if so can anyone tell me where I can find it? I've read just about everything that's ever come out about the HH, so either I've forgotten reading about it or there's a book or short out there that I have yet to read.
Thanks in advance.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/23 11:50:43
"How many people here have telekenetic powers raise my hand" - The Emperor, The council of Nikae
"Never raise your hand to your children, it leaves your midsection unprotected" - The Emperor
"My father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic" - Kharn |
|
|
|
2020/03/23 12:21:21
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
|
The book slaves to darkness covers that particular piece. Lorgar stages a botched coup against Horus.
|
Iron within, Iron without |
|
|
|
2020/03/23 12:30:26
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
Does Lorgar just go out of his way to fail? He spends so little time NOT being a failure.
|
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
|
|
|
2020/03/23 14:01:21
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Regular Dakkanaut
A random ditch next to a zoo (self imposed exile)
|
evil_kiwi_60 wrote:The book slaves to darkness covers that particular piece. Lorgar stages a botched coup against Horus.
I'm clearly going to have to give Slaves to Darkness another read because I don't remember that at all. In the Lost and the Damned (or it might have been the Solar War) Little Horus Aximand was accused of crying over bringing Horus back from the brink after his duel with Russ. According to Abaddon, Aximand was less than enthusiastic with the idea, which is something else I don't remember about Slaves to Darkness.
I must've been having the mother of all brain farts when I read that book. Maybe I should read it again, preferably with my eyes open this time...
Thanks for your reply.
|
"How many people here have telekenetic powers raise my hand" - The Emperor, The council of Nikae
"Never raise your hand to your children, it leaves your midsection unprotected" - The Emperor
"My father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic" - Kharn |
|
|
|
2020/03/23 14:20:56
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Mind you, Lorgar was acting out of selfless religious authority.
|
|
|
|
2020/03/23 14:31:09
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
|
To be fair, most of slaves to darkness was uninspired.
But Lorgar basically goes into Slaanesh’s Realm of *censored* to recruit/enthrall Fulgrim. Lorgar wants to use Fulgrim to kill Horus because he believes that Horus has lost control of the traitor forces and because he refuses to submit to the pantheon. He plans the coup at Ullanor, where he plots to kill Horus right before the fleet that attacks Terra musters. The plan laughably fails because Horus decides to stop dying because warp magic. The plot falls flat on its face and Lorgar is kicked out of the Traitor Marines club.
I liked the theme from the book, showing the degrading cohesion that has plagued the traitors since they have thrown in with chaos. Lorgar in particular has gone from trying to enlighten and save his brothers to killing them for his own selfish end. The story seemed all over the place in an attempt to tie in all the characters spread across the galaxy.
|
Iron within, Iron without |
|
|
|
2020/03/25 16:16:09
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Boom! Leman Russ Commander
|
evil_kiwi_60 wrote:To be fair, most of slaves to darkness was uninspired.
But Lorgar basically goes into Slaanesh’s Realm of *censored* to recruit/enthrall Fulgrim. Lorgar wants to use Fulgrim to kill Horus because he believes that Horus has lost control of the traitor forces and because he refuses to submit to the pantheon. He plans the coup at Ullanor, where he plots to kill Horus right before the fleet that attacks Terra musters. The plan laughably fails because Horus decides to stop dying because warp magic. The plot falls flat on its face and Lorgar is kicked out of the Traitor Marines club.
I liked the theme from the book, showing the degrading cohesion that has plagued the traitors since they have thrown in with chaos. Lorgar in particular has gone from trying to enlighten and save his brothers to killing them for his own selfish end. The story seemed all over the place in an attempt to tie in all the characters spread across the galaxy.
One of the short stories I have on audio (I forget the title) is partly made up of Horus being slightly miffed that he seems to have ended up with the nutjobs from the Primarchs on his side.
Can anyone remember which book has Erebus by Horus?
|
|
|
|
|
2020/03/25 16:35:29
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
alphaecho wrote: evil_kiwi_60 wrote:To be fair, most of slaves to darkness was uninspired.
But Lorgar basically goes into Slaanesh’s Realm of *censored* to recruit/enthrall Fulgrim. Lorgar wants to use Fulgrim to kill Horus because he believes that Horus has lost control of the traitor forces and because he refuses to submit to the pantheon. He plans the coup at Ullanor, where he plots to kill Horus right before the fleet that attacks Terra musters. The plan laughably fails because Horus decides to stop dying because warp magic. The plot falls flat on its face and Lorgar is kicked out of the Traitor Marines club.
I liked the theme from the book, showing the degrading cohesion that has plagued the traitors since they have thrown in with chaos. Lorgar in particular has gone from trying to enlighten and save his brothers to killing them for his own selfish end. The story seemed all over the place in an attempt to tie in all the characters spread across the galaxy.
One of the short stories I have on audio (I forget the title) is partly made up of Horus being slightly miffed that he seems to have ended up with the nutjobs from the Primarchs on his side.
Can anyone remember which book has Erebus by Horus?
If he wanted the other Primarchs he shouldn't have picked Chaos as the Traitor banner. He'd lose Lorgar but I have to ask, does that really matter?
|
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
|
|
|
2020/03/25 17:28:28
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
That's why Horus was so weak and foolish. He locked the traitors into the wrong faction keyword: 'Chaos'. Should have gone for 'Liberty', 'Self-Determination' or something.
|
|
|
|
2020/03/25 17:33:03
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
nareik wrote:That's why Horus was so weak and foolish. He locked the traitors into the wrong faction keyword: 'Chaos'. Should have gone for 'Liberty', 'Self-Determination' or something.
Honestly if he'd picked liberty or ethics he could've traded Lorgar for a Corax and Vulkan with a chance of Guilliman. It's actually a really interesting idea IMO, what would have changed if Horus had rebelled for something not Chaos?
|
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
|
|
|
2020/03/25 17:56:10
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
It was liberty and ethics. What were the Astartes going to do when the Great Crusade was over? Either it was going to last forever and the sacrifices the Astartes had made (their humanity, their lives, the lives of all the aspirants that died so the survivors could in their turn die for humanity) would be wasted, or it was going to end and they would be surplus to requirements (like the Thunder Warriors).
Already in Horus Rising the War Council of the Primarchs and their Astartes was being supplanted by civilian rulers who had not earned the right to rule. The Emperor had a plan that clearly didn't involve Horus, and that likewise clearly involved his sacrifice (Abnett even has Horus nailed through the wrist and crying out to his father like Christ on the cross when fighting the interex). The Emperor had wronged each of the Traitor Primarchs. They all had legitimate grievances with the Emperor's tyrannical rule.
|
|
|
|
2020/03/25 18:08:55
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
It absolutely was not about any kind of liberty and ethics. If it was about liberty then Corax would've been onboard before any saw him coming and the second you started talking about morality Vulkan would pop up and Curze would leave to find something fun.
The disposal/redundancy of the Astartes wasn't what the Heresy was fought for, it was just a tool used to get some of them onboard.
|
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
|
|
|
2020/03/25 19:09:27
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
|
I’m curious how rule by the Space Marines would be any less tyrannical than rule by the emperor. Legions like the Night Lords and World Eaters had no business ruling anything. Realistically the Iron Warriors, Sons of Horus, and Word Bearers were the only legions with a chance to make anything lasting after they had won. Even with that the chaos corruption had pretty much removed the best aspects of those legions.
The Legions that started the Heresy didn’t exist when they got to Terra. Any rational they had used to justify the rebellion went out the window after events like Tallarn, The Ruin Storm, or whatever the Emperors Children were doing.
|
Iron within, Iron without |
|
|
|
2020/03/25 20:06:21
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
The less you think about what the Emperors Children do the happier you are. Except for Fabius.
From a legionary perspective it's much better than the Emperors plan because they actually fought and bled for the right to rule. They have the right of conquest which is far more than random humans, who are arguably inferior, being given the job.
Whether or not that's a fair ruling method it does make internal sense from a legionary view.
|
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
|
|
|
2020/04/14 15:06:21
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Dakka Veteran
|
"umm actually it's about liberty and ethics in the 31st millennium"
hahaha. I needed a laugh today.
|
|
|
|
|
2020/04/14 15:55:26
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Battleship Captain
|
pm713 wrote:The less you think about what the Emperors Children do the happier you are. Except for Fabius.
From a legionary perspective it's much better than the Emperors plan because they actually fought and bled for the right to rule. They have the right of conquest which is far more than random humans, who are arguably inferior, being given the job.
Whether or not that's a fair ruling method it does make internal sense from a legionary view.
Right or wrong, that was Gulliman's view - 'marines will excel in peace just like they excel at war, because they were designed to excel at everything.'
The Emperor, on the other hand, clearly felt different. It's notable that despite a very good practical argument for putting Custodes in charge of stuff (they are arguably mentally superior to marines and better - or at least more all-round - educated), but =][= didn't put a few hundred custodians in charge of the adeptus terra, he got a bunch of humans for the job.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/14 15:55:47
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
|
|
|
|
2020/04/15 12:03:58
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
The Emperor wanted humanity to be able to rule itself. Marines (and the Thunder Warriors before them) were tools to build the Imperium, not to rule it. He din't even want to rule it himself, he wanted to fade into the background once everything was stable. It is worth noting that Malcador believed this was unreasonably optimistic.
Quite what the role of the Custodes would have been in a stable Imperium is unclear. 10,000 is not enough to have even 1 per planet so I don't think they were planned as rulers either. My guess is that the Custodians would have acted as roving Marshals and trouble-shooters rather than rulers. The Emperor wanted a humanity that could govern itself without having to have rulership imposed by genetically engineered mules.
|
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. |
|
|
|
2020/04/15 15:43:03
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks
|
Horus didn't rebel for Chaos, not officially. Some traitor primachs don't even know about chaos !!!
He rebelled against the tyranny and megalomania of the Emperor, mainly.
I don't think Fulgrim tells Manus about Chaos when he tries to rally him for example.
What does Mortarion and the Khan talk about on Prospero ?
|
|
|
|
|
2020/04/15 17:59:21
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
|
Horus didnt rebel for chaos, he was corrupted by it.
Even Lorgar, who made the pact willingly didnt really know what he was getting. At Calth Guilliman said that he detected a secret shame and shock buried deep in Lorgar, it probably didnt last, but the fall of the primarchs was a slippery slide into Chaos, few made the plunge rapidly.
|
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
|
|
|
2020/04/15 22:26:28
Subject: Re:Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
|
the only ones who really made the plunge willingly where the emperor's children and the word bearers. and the word bearers didn't like it but where all "but tis the gods so we gotta do it" never once thinking "... do we owe these sons of bitches worship?"
|
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
|
|
|
2020/04/17 11:25:15
Subject: Re:Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
BrianDavion wrote:the only ones who really made the plunge willingly where the emperor's children and the word bearers. and the word bearers didn't like it but where all "but tis the gods so we gotta do it" never once thinking "... do we owe these sons of bitches worship?"
I largely agree, but even in these cases it seems quite likely the "willing" devotees didn't fully understand what they were signing up to. The creation of the Gal Vorbak explicitly shows that, in fact. For the Word Bearers it seems it was a general (possibly genetic) need to believe in and worship something that led them to the Chaos Gods so there are some interesting questions about how freely they really submitted. Not that you can really feel too much sympathy for them - they probably knew or suspected enough about what they were letting themselves in for.
|
|
|
|
2020/04/17 17:26:18
Subject: Re:Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
|
BrianDavion wrote:the only ones who really made the plunge willingly where the emperor's children and the word bearers. and the word bearers didn't like it but where all "but tis the gods so we gotta do it" never once thinking "... do we owe these sons of bitches worship?"
Some never made the "plunge", except for a few warbands, after the death of their primarch and the Scouring (*cough* Night Lords *cough*).
|
|
|
|
2020/04/18 17:59:37
Subject: Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
|
For every Night Lord warband that avoids chaos there’s bound to be another that embraces it. The largest grouping of Night Lords is led by a demon prince very much in the sway of chaos. For that matter the Night Lords pretty much ceases to exist when their primarch died. They pretty much scattered to the winds.
The main issue is that there’s really not much morality in either the Emperor’s plan or the traiotrs. If you squint maybe the emperor is doing it for the good of humanity at the cost of the individual human. The traitors are doing it for themselves. I do agree that from their point of view it makes sense but they certainly have to justify a lot of extremely questionable actions on the way there. They had a funny way of tying to liberate the Astartes. The Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Ultramarines pretty much had their side chosen for them by the traitors themselves.
|
Iron within, Iron without |
|
|
|
2020/04/18 18:30:21
Subject: Re:Where was Lorgar during the Siege of Terra?
|
|
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
|
Yes, some fell to chaos after the death of Curze. That's what I said. And Krieg Acerbus's warband being the largest is fairly old lore. That could be different now. The Night Lords can still unite as a functioning legion as well, as we've seen in Throne of Lies and their attacks on Craftworld Ulthwe during the 13th Black Crusade.
|
|
|
|
|