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Hi all,

So I’m creating my own SM Chapter but i need your feedback for the current idea I have for their backstory please.

Basically, they were Iron Hands who fled from Istvaan V and whilst fleeing managed to jump into the warp. However the warp spat them out into the warp storms created by the Sicatrix Maledictum 10,000 years later. Eventually they made it back to Medusa only to find the Iron Hands has changed for the worse. So the Time travelling Istvaan survivors setup their own Chapter that would pay honour to there Primarch and his beliefs as written in the Neimerel Scrolls.

What do you guys think?

Are there any big complications that I might not have seen?

Thanks

Greetings!
All of this is purely my opinion.
Personally I am not much in favor of the 'lost in the warp' conceit. It is just over done. I think that the first time anyone mades a custom chapter, myself included, thought this was a brilliant idea. Mind this for myself was before the heresy rulebooks and novels. The HH was just a big juicy delicious mystery. Now that we know everything about everything, the "lost in the warp" idea has lost what little luster it had. Its just played out. But lets say you wanna go for it. It presents more difficulties than its worth. Imagine your an IH captain and all of a sudden a bunch of archaic dudes show up and start throwing accusations at you and your battle brothers. The fact is not even the most liberal chapter would suffer such misfits to live. Look up Captain Lysander of the IF. He was like the biggest mary sue of all time and they tortured him for years after he was recovered from the warp just to prove he was who he said he was. I also think we as a group overlook the gulf of 10,000 years culturally. How long has eygpt been around? 5000 years? It's doubtful they would even recognize each other as battle brothers despite the similar heraldry. If a band of heresy era marines ever just popped out of the warp the Inquisition is gonna diesect them to death to figure them out.
I also think the numarines have made the creation of unique chapters far less interesting. Primaris Marines are streamlined, more homogeneous. The origins I've read for new chapters are less interesting.
I promise I am not trying to crap all over your idea.
So let's talk solutions. Here's some ideas I've considered that stay away from the "lost in the warp" hook...
>A renegade traitor chapter- what about a renegade warband that comes back to the fold, like the mantis warriors. There are some interesting possibilities with this idea. And although its rare there are precedents. Kind of a cool bad boy image with a penitent crusade...
>A "heretical" but not chaotic chapter- These guys will not follow the creed of the parent chapter and so they have been banished from the parent chapters patronage. This would be interesting for a dark angel successor chapter. IH would work well too.
>A loyal chapter that in heresy days was heavily influenced by a traitor chapter- I like this one. the Nemesis chapter springs to mind. In olden days an UM chapter was assigned duty with a NL crusade. When they returned to their fleet they had been altered by the NL culture. They took trophies, and shared some iconography. This would work well for an UM successor chapter since there are so many.
Any way I hope you have found this somewhat helpful! Cheers!

TL/DR
"lost in the warp" idea is played out for successor chapters.
I'm not trying to crap on the idea.
Let's talk some more interesting ideas?
Thanks!

I'll echo Lotus-your idea is perfectly fine, it's just little well-worn.

Which is fine! If this idea inspires you, then go for it! Don't let us say no to your fun. But it might be fun to try to find something more original. If not, enjoy anyway!

Banishment or duties in the far corners of the galaxy are good alternatives to just lost in the warp. Also localized warp storms can cut off parts of the galaxy for extended periods of time.

It would be very difficult for an organization that was part of a legion adjust to suddenly being a chapter. Suddenly they’re on the hook for all of there logistics including recruitment, munitions, fuel, and food. Also most chapters are several thousand years old. Any Heresy era formation could only have existed for 300-400 years at the longest. These are some of the areas that you should focus on if you want to do 30k to 40k.

To be fair though there was another Iron Hands Successor that literally sprang from the iron hands due to a dispute over dogma. Both groups hate each other but they didn’t kill one another.

and yeah gonna echo the sentiments that a "lost in the warp heresy surviors" bit is over done.
it also takes away from the things that make Bjorn and Gulliman special, so.. there's that.

As evil_kiwi says, there's easily precedent for a schism in a Chapter without needing a time travel plot. Again, if you *really* like the "we were Istvaan survivors in a new world" plot, then keep it, but it is a little over-done.

Ones you could try that keep a similar vein:
Have your Chapter be made up largely of a certain group of Istvaan survivors, who rejoined with the Iron Hands, but split off due to ideological differences and formed their own Chapter during the Second Founding or later (like the Brazen Claws, Red Talons or Sons of Medusa)

Have your group of Istvaan survivors get lost, but rather than get stranded in the Warp, have them get cut off from communication on a barren tribal world, and forced to become self-sufficient for generations, until they are finally contacted/found by Imperial forces thousands of years later (in like M33 or something) - so they might have a difference ideology to other Iron Hands, but they're not *from Istvaan*.

thanks for all your replies, i value your feedback and i did think the lost in the warp idea a bit too much but i'll now look up the mantis warriors and research them. i do like the idea of a 'renegade' chapter brought back into the imperial fold.

heres another question, if a group of IH were exiled from the chapter because of ideology would the 'exiled' be classed as heretical? or would they be allowed to do there own thing?

Not necessarily heretical, depending on what their ideology was!

Something like an academic debate or a heated discussion over the interpretation of one of Ferrus' ideologies turning into a war of ideas and doctrine? Not heretical, but easily enough to get you and your allies exiled to form your own sect.

Flirting with Chaos and tech-heresy? Depending on how extreme you went/if a suitably hard-line Iron Father found out, easily could be heresy.

On the Mantis Warriors element, it's quite possible that you have a group of Iron Hands who perhaps failed to accomplish something critical. That could have led to IH command sending them on a penitent crusade. And, perhaps while on the Penitent Crusade, the Marines disavow themselves from the Iron Hands, and see their Chapter's extreme intolerance for weakness as a weakness in itself. So, when they complete their Crusade, they return and announce their split from the Chapter, taking their share of equipment and becoming formally recognised as a new independent Chapter.

I love the iron hands but I love the Neimerel Scrolls, so I want to do a Chapter who try to become the warriors Ferrus wanted them to be. However I can’t just have them pack up and leave from IH without any consequences. I don’t like the idea of a penitence Crusade as it usually leads to corruption or mostly death ( from my limited knowledge lol). I want my Chapter to break away from the flesh is weak but without suffering too much whilst trying to maintain a noble character

Azkallean wrote:
I love the iron hands but I love the Neimerel Scrolls, so I want to do a Chapter who try to become the warriors Ferrus wanted them to be. However I can’t just have them pack up and leave from IH without any consequences.

The best ways for Marines to break free of a Chapter and still be loyal warriors of the Imperium is either for an internal Chapter schism (like what happened with the Sons of Medusa), or a forced separation (ie, a faction that has been forced to fight in isolation and has grown apart from the rest of the Chapter - arguably the same situation as the Ultramarines Aegida Company becoming the Scythes of the Emperor).

I don’t like the idea of a penitence Crusade as it usually leads to corruption or mostly death ( from my limited knowledge lol).

Many Chapters do survive their Penitent Crusades (most of the Badab War factions who fought alongside Huron and later repented were given penitent crusades, and they're still around) - I'd say it's the best way of letting them have character growth and having organic separation from the rest of their Chapter, but if you're not keen, that's fine!

I want my Chapter to break away from the flesh is weak but without suffering too much whilst trying to maintain a noble character

Yeah, something like the Moirae Schism would fit. Essentially, something along the lines of a sizeable portion of the IH reading the Neimerel Scrolls, having disagreements with the ruling Council, potentially blows being struck and Chapter organisation taking a beating, with the pro-scrolls faction splitting apart and becoming their own entity, much like with the Sons of Medusa.

At the risk of reducing the drama, there is no reason why a later Founding Chapter descended from the Iron Hands could not be reformationalist Iron Hands following the Neimerel Scrolls instead of the "Cult of Flesh is Weak". You just need to decide how it is they came across the Neimerel Scrolls and what made them reject the current teachings for the older ones.

Perhaps upon their founding they were given on one the the worlds brought into Compliance during the Great Crusade by the Iron Hands as their Chapter base and first recruiting world. At some point, they uncovered forgotten records left behind by Ferrus Maneus and studied them as dutiful sons of the Primarch. This lead them to his old ways.

Again thanks I love you’re ideas of a Compliance world from the Great Crusade and a Schism within the Iron Hands.

However I have two more things to ask.

Firstly if there was a Schism within the Iron Hands wouldn’t the Pro Neimerel Scrolls ‘rebels’ be classed as Excommunicae Traitoris?

Secondly, how do you think the Adeptus Mechanicus would take the news of an Iron Hands successor Chapter giving up bionics and the close links the original Legion had Forged?

I ask this second one as I know the Martians have manipulated the Iron Hands for many years.

Azkallean wrote:
Again thanks I love you’re ideas of a Compliance world from the Great Crusade and a Schism within the Iron Hands.

However I have two more things to ask.

Firstly if there was a Schism within the Iron Hands wouldn’t the Pro Neimerel Scrolls ‘rebels’ be classed as Excommunicae Traitoris?

That depends on how violent the schism was. If the "rebels" ended up causing extreme damage and undermined Imperial efforts and authority, or flirted with tech-heresy or basically did anything that wasn't loyal without doubt, then I can imagine that they would be. But, if they were supported by an equally loyal forge world, an Inquisitor, other Chapters, or just generally factions with enough political clout, then I can see that they'd be immune to prosecution and the IH would pretty much just have to kick them out without taking further action.

Secondly, how do you think the Adeptus Mechanicus would take the news of an Iron Hands successor Chapter giving up bionics and the close links the original Legion had Forged?

I ask this second one as I know the Martians have manipulated the Iron Hands for many years.

Well, having a whole Chapter just waiting to be gobbled up as a close ally represents a great opportunity for the Mechanicus. Obviously, if the new Chapters hated the Mechanicus and outright rejected their influence, then I can see the AdMech actually pushing for the Chapter to be Excommunicated.
But, if the Chapter expresses interest in contact with the AdMech, and even offers to come to their aid in times of crisis (not as permanent guardians, but rather bound by oath), then that's a pretty lucrative offer for any Forge World. I could certainly see a Techpriest hearing about the growing Schism within the Iron Hands, and offering aid and political support for the fledgling Chapter, in return for their protection.

Essentially, when you start getting to that level of influence and power within the Imperium, things get very political.

As distance can be a very useful tool in such issues. If the Chapter Homeward is far enough from Medusa, their ability to influence things locally will be reduced.

Also, most First Founding chapters do not have significant control over their successor chapters. Only the Dark Angels and Blood Angels are anything close to resembling a Legion from the Great Crusade. That leaves lots of area for divergent thinking.

Thanks to your inspiration and feedback I’ve now got a new idea.

After returning to Medusa from Istvaan V an IH captain began spreading the words of the Neimerel Scrolls. This caused internal division and conflicts of beliefs. Soon after the Iron Council met Dorn and Guilliman on Draor and agreed to buy into the Codex Astartes. This then gave the Iron Council a way of separating the Pro Neimerelists from the remaining Chapter.

That would work! Does that mean that they'd be one of the original Second Founders?

Great!! And yeah they would be. I like the idea of a Second Founding Chapter who has had thousands of years to forge their own long and glorious history.

Also I think a Second Founding Chapter will fit better with the Neimerel Scrolls. Seeing how Ferrus Manus was killed would spark a different viewpoint. The IH think he and they are weak for being flesh but some might think the IH are weak for not embracing their humanity.

As we don’t know much of the Neimerel Scrolls like who wrote them and when I have something to work with there too. I have an idea about the creation of the Neimerel Scrolls that would fit really well.

I find there's far too few people who take advantage of the fact that we don't know how many 2nd Founders were were. So, even though there's only two canon IH successors immediately after the Heresy, there's easily room for your own homebrew to be one! Plus, as you say, they're more likely to have known what Ferrus' intentions were and avoid the massive indoctrination that the Iron Hands would later have.

Considering what happened after the horus heresy, wouldn't it be hard for a heresy time IH to not end as either an IH or as a crusader ? they had a full blown civil war, because of the religion thing.

Karol wrote:
Considering what happened after the horus heresy, wouldn't it be hard for a heresy time IH to not end as either an IH or as a crusader ? they had a full blown civil war, because of the religion thing.

A Crusader? Do you mean the Black Templars? Those are Imperial Fist successors, not Iron Hands. The only Iron Hands successors immediately after the Heresy were the Red Talons and Brazen Claws.

I’ve also thought about them being a Non Codex Crusading Chapter like the Black Templar’s. I know Ferrus had a lot of respect for Guilliman but I don’t think he would’ve bought into the Codex so easily or at all.

So yeah a second Founding Chapter that want to be the sons that Ferrus wanted who go off ‘continue’ the Great Crusade in his image without any limitations

I think I’m onto a winner!!! Yes!!! Thanks all

keep in mind the Iron Hands where shattered by Istavan so a large crusading chapter like the black templars would be a bit.. odd given they're not exactly going to have numbers to exceed the codex limits.

One idea IMHO might be to make this new chapter descendants of a element of the Iron Hands that simply never linked up with the rest of the iron hands post istavan V until the second founding was formed, as such it was simply natural to spin them off as an indendant chapter because.. they defacto, already had been.