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Made in gb
Bush? No, Eldar Ranger





United Kingdom

Thread soundtrack:


***
Edit:
TLDR Version: Some threads like Corona Virus are inherently political and I suggest remedies such as bringing back politics (very unpopular) or better moderation so that people don't get punished for acceptable lapses of judgement in threads considered "provocative threads."

***

FULL POST:

Spoiler:

Greetings ,

I'm fairly new to the forum and I like the place, but with every forum - there's issues regarding enforcement of rules that can effect member experience.

I'm the CEO/Founder of a media organisation who specialise in PC Gaming content. We used to have a forum with well over a thousand active members (I closed the domain because it was too labour intensive and we have a Facebook page which is achieving the same purpose) so I have some experience in administration. This is just my opinion on what you could do to make the forum better and mods live's easier.

Now there's issues with your Off-Topic section; No Politics and No Religion (though it's kind of loosely defined as it is) - but specifically how these are enforced. These are emotional topics that will always come up in discussions as soon as somebody is triggered, or as soon as a conversation takes a philosophical turn. people need to feel like they have an outlet (within reason) if you wan't a thriving community. I feel like this rule is based off the logical notion that in a workplace or formal setting you "Don't talk about politics or religion." - however Off-Topic sections on any kind of public forum is not a professional setting and does not apply. This is the internet, people are opinionated, they want to argue and share their view, they want to see others views and spectate other people arguing. It's human nature and this is what keeps people active on forums (Generally if you run a forum as a business you want as much debate as possible.) The issue is when people take it too far, and that's where the line should be.
For most moderators this is much easier to gauge when something has gone too far than simply having a rule that will get broken everyday anyway and then stumbling around it. Generally moderators should be responding to reported posts and not monitoring every discussion in the forum and deleting posts. That applies for any section, if the users don't have a problem with it and no rules are being broken, the moderator really has no place in trying to "clean" people's threads. In other forums moderators DO NOT go through threads and delete posts to clean up threads. Worst case scenario you lock the thread and say it's gone too off-topic, or whatever.

What often happens when you are tasked in policing people's conversations is you actually forget the difference between off-topic sections and themed sections and you treat the two the same. There are multiple threads in Off-Topic which are just asking for trouble, with your current rules you really are fighting a losing battle and are going to end up very busy. You simply need to understand human nature and manage it effectively or you don't have a public forum you have an exclusive club of moderators and some regulars, as an online business (I'm assuming that's what DakkaDakka is) that would be considered a failure. You need constant traffic, new users who are young and fresh in the hobby with new ideas who can get involved and learn the ropes, make their mistakes etc. as we all do but still hang around and feel welcomed after.

It's actually not that hard to keep everyone happy. I've noticed you have people who are saying you're not enforcing the rules hard enough, and people saying you're being too strict. The truth is you can't win because the rules themselves are flawed.

The fix to this, is to either change the rules so that political and religious is allowed, or you make a separate section for example: Free For All (where all discussion is allowed - within reason.) or you remove the Off-Topic section if you can't handle the way people are online. In regards to the thread management, sometimes you just gotta' let it roll man, most of the time a thread with necro anyway and then get back on topic when sombody responds to the OP. Encourage people to report posts rather than being proactive yourself. A boring forum is a bad impression not one that has people arguing, that's actually a good thing, people are like "this place is buzzing."
.
This is a suggestion that will make the forum better in my view. If somebody has a different view happy to hear.

Though I think we can all agree you can't have mods coming in to threads and saying things like:
Anymore of this redpill crap and people arses are out of here.


I won't name the mod in question but this language is vulgar and the tone is hostile. If this were my operation I would have to retrain this individual on how to speak to users.

So that's my suggestion, mods need to understand things change online. You can't do things the same way you did 5 or 10 years ago, forums are only just becoming a thing again with the youth. The way content is produced is different now, to have a successful online business you must allow human nature, the good, the bad the trolls. It's the same way something goes viral on YouTube or something like that, because there's a million people fighting for that top comment and it's all user moderated for the most part.

Somebody actually banned me from Off-Topic section for giving my outlandish political opinion in Coronavirus thread which I fully accept, I'm quite a difficult and stubborn person and I was purposely walking a fine line for general amusement. Literally couldn't keep up with the responses in that thread it was heated. I'd argue everyone was enjoying themselves though. Maybe the ban was a little bit strong seeing as I wasn't warned or anything, but I probably deserved it to be fair. Not sure what you expecting from that thread exactly.

Thanks for listening. I'm not 100% sure I'll continue to be active because my account is restricted and nobody wants to be active on forum they can't post freely in, nor am I certain i'll be welcome after this post I'll check the responses, definitely some cool members on here, Insiniak/Queen Annes Revenge were very welcoming and engaging in my posts as well as others so I appreciate that.

Good day.

P.S. I'm a bit of an nutcase with too much time on my hands, kind of just whining about something I don't care much about but hey, maybe one disgruntled user might appreciate it in the moment.







This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/25 20:24:16


 
   
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No thanks, I personally think it's fine as it is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/25 14:55:48


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Made in gb
Bush? No, Eldar Ranger





United Kingdom

That's fine you've been on here over 10 years and are a mod of arguably the most benign section on the forum, so I imagine you have it easy. Any post from people who have criticised mods or suggested things has been locked so we already know what time it is. A lot of people getting banned and comments deleted for pretty minor infractions not just me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/25 15:28:55


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 A.D. wrote:

Somebody actually banned me from Off-Topic section for giving my outlandish political opinion in Coronavirus thread which I fully accept, I'm quite a difficult and stubborn person and I was purposely walking a fine line for general amusement.



So you freely admit you were commenting only for your own amusement (ergo trolling) in an otherwise serious thread and for that you got told off and punished. Thing is that's good, that's exactly what the mods should be doing. Off-topic is just like all the other segment of the site, its just not themed around wargames. Off topic is not the same as 4chan or reddit or facebook or twitter where you can just spout-off about whatever you want for your own entertainment and however you want it.


Also no politics and no religion are there not because "you don't talk of it in the workplace" but because they are highly volatile subjects that can generate a lot of conflict on a site. Conflict that will directly sour peoples experience of a forum and drive them off. The kind of actions that turn people who everywhere else on the site got along fine; into bitter enemies with long term grudges that will flare up in other sections. The result being lots of work for mods; less enjoyment for members and less reason to hang around.


There are loads of forums out there with political and religious debate and whole sites with low to no moderation. Dakka isn't one of them.

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Made in gb
Bush? No, Eldar Ranger





United Kingdom

We have different nationalities here with different governments and different views are you saying Corona virus is not a political topic? 80% of the posts in that thread are political just saying that's why it's impossible to moderate and unreasonable to expect people to behave dont you agree?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 A.D. wrote:
We have different nationalities here with different governments and different views are you saying Corona virus is not a political topic? 80% of the posts in that thread are political just saying that's why it's impossible to moderate and unreasonable to expect people to behave dont you agree?


No. Expecting people to behave is how society works. Having moderators is how one aims to correct the mistakes for those who slip up or when things get steadily taken too far etc...

Also just because something involves many countries doesn't make it political - the thread has been running thus far pretty well and mostly focuses on dealing with the medical side as well as dipping into some aspects of the nature of reporting on the event. Sure some politics does arise but its not a political debate nor discussion.

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Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

The place has become much more civil with the removal of political threads.

It's resulted in a lot less cross-contamination of anger in other threads.

It's not something that Dakka needs. There are plenty of other places to blow your political horn, do it there.

Please don't pee in our pool, or poop in our cornflakes. It's not much to ask. Don't you agree?
   
Made in gb
Bush? No, Eldar Ranger





United Kingdom

Guys guys I'm not saying it should be political or whatever, im just saying its unrealistic. It's not that different from me making a 9/11 thread completely innocently it wouldn't be against the rules but the mods can't surely be expected to moderate a thread like that. Of course it's going to get political and heated it's not even as political a subject as coronavirus arguably when our whole politics/policies are revolving around covid? Hope you're getting my point. Its not a black and white thing that's why I want to help improve it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/25 15:51:48


 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

It ain't broke. Don't fix it.
   
Made in gb
Bush? No, Eldar Ranger





United Kingdom

 greatbigtree wrote:
The place has become much more civil with the removal of political threads.

It's resulted in a lot less cross-contamination of anger in other threads.

It's not something that Dakka needs. There are plenty of other places to blow your political horn, do it there.

Please don't pee in our pool, or poop in our cornflakes. It's not much to ask. Don't you agree?


I agree. Good response.

Let's call the issue here "provocative threads" and how to manage them better.

1. So was it allowed previously?

2. Dakka is a business right, it's there to expand and adapt? When was this site last updated?

Personally if BBforums were more like twitter/reddit that would be a good thing in my opinion but that's not for me to say. Hard pressed to find anyone under 25 on bb :(



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
 A.D. wrote:
We have different nationalities here with different governments and different views are you saying Corona virus is not a political topic? 80% of the posts in that thread are political just saying that's why it's impossible to moderate and unreasonable to expect people to behave dont you agree?


No. Expecting people to behave is how society works. Having moderators is how one aims to correct the mistakes for those who slip up or when things get steadily taken too far etc...

Also just because something involves many countries doesn't make it political - the thread has been running thus far pretty well and mostly focuses on dealing with the medical side as well as dipping into some aspects of the nature of reporting on the event. Sure some politics does arise but its not a political debate nor discussion.


You expect society to behave under normal circumstances if I put twenty grand and bag of Charlie in your hand and tell you behave we already know you wont and can be forgiven. Society needs socialising by the responsible ones so I think your point is off. But I agree with what you're saying.

Look this moderation format for bbforums is like from the 90s so theres room for improvement that's all my saying I'm an innovator you see. Maybe I'm just passing the time having a little chit chat. For all you know this might not even be my first account on here, I could even be an ex moderator on here or a founding member who knows. But I'm getting the idea people seem pretty content with it so thats totally great.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/25 16:31:22


 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Removed - Rule #1 please

The answer to this issue is the same as every other time anything like it comes up. Dakka isn't a democracy, it is a benign dictatorship. If you don't like the rules then you're free to seek out other places.

It has been discussed, it has been revisited, nothing's changing in the foreseeable future.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/25 16:53:02


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Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

Provocative threads. Agreed.

That falls under the don't start flame wars rules. I'm not actively familiar with the rules of the site. They all boil down to don't be an donkey-cave, and don't get the site into legal woes.

So provocative threads are disallowed on the basis they are apt to start gak.

But these particular sources of provocation were previously allowed yes. It caused more problems than benefits. So they've been banned.


I don't know if Dakka is a business per se. I'm not the owner. I don't know if between DCM and Ad revenue if that results in a net positive cash flow.

*IF* it is, then an informed decision would need to be made, weighing the positive "value" of allowing prohibidabido topics, vs the lost "value" of losing users because of toxic assery.

Again, I'm not on the inside track with the financials. I also have my doubts about the *purpose* of Dakka being a business, rather than an enthusiastic fan sharing their love of the game with the world. That might be overly simplistic, but being outside of the inside financial track of the site, it seems more likely that's the case based on what I've seen. A hobby-job perhaps, but not seeming to be a driven corporate engine.
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

This cross-bleed of anger was a hallmark of the political posting era.

This little... tryst... between you is all that's needed to show the site is better off without that sort of cross-bleeding of anger.

I hope you see the point you've demonstrated.

PS: Azrael, that looks like a personal attack unrelated to the topic at hand. Perhaps a fair statement, but reported with the yellow triangle of friendship. Happy days, everyone!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/25 16:48:03


 
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

Politics are not making a return.



Should go without saying, but still, sometimes the big, red text works better..

As a moderator who got onboard scant days after the whole politics thing was given a final try around 2018, I cannot stress enough how much of a relief it has been that political discussion is banned from these forums, as it was a massive drain on moderator time and quite honestly made quite a few posters act and behave in horrible ways, both in off topic and outside of it, as some folks could not let things lie and had to pursue their "opponents" to the ends of these forums. Waking up every morning to a dashboard lit up with well over a dozen (if I'm lucky), but usually more, alerts, all coming from the same few topics, the same users, is no fun either. This wasn't a simple case of quickly checking each alert, as these had to be checked, sometimes pruned of quotes, other non-offending posts had to be pruned as well, all in all, a massive time sink. We had a mod volunteer to solely police those topics and try to keep everything in order, that's how much of a problem it was.

Plus it made the forums look bad as a whole.

There is always some leeway when certain news stories or global events pop up, but thankfully MOST posters have the good common sense to know when to stop, or to report those who toe the line and take it too far. Posters who have in the past repeatedly gone too far have received warnings, or a simple suspension of their rights to post in our off-topic forums.

End of the day, this is a forum dedicated to the wargaming hobby, about collecting and playing with toy soldiers, not a place to gakpost and have flame wars about politics, plenty of other places you can do that.



Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
Made in gb
Bush? No, Eldar Ranger





United Kingdom

 greatbigtree wrote:
Provocative threads. Agreed.

That falls under the don't start flame wars rules. I'm not actively familiar with the rules of the site. They all boil down to don't be an donkey-cave, and don't get the site into legal woes.

So provocative threads are disallowed on the basis they are apt to start gak.

But these particular sources of provocation were previously allowed yes. It caused more problems than benefits. So they've been banned.


I don't know if Dakka is a business per se. I'm not the owner. I don't know if between DCM and Ad revenue if that results in a net positive cash flow.

*IF* it is, then an informed decision would need to be made, weighing the positive "value" of allowing prohibidabido topics, vs the lost "value" of losing users because of toxic assery.

Again, I'm not on the inside track with the financials. I also have my doubts about the *purpose* of Dakka being a business, rather than an enthusiastic fan sharing their love of the game with the world. That might be overly simplistic, but being outside of the inside financial track of the site, it seems more likely that's the case based on what I've seen. A hobby-job perhaps, but not seeming to be a driven corporate engine.


You know, I'll say compared to a lot of places Dakka has become very civil and quite pleasant. So I guess it's for the best. Maybe I overreacted. I like this response, you're a smart guy y'know. I'll agree you're probably right. It's more of a sustainable hobby out of the love.

I dont want Dakka to end up like the Waaagh situation though we all know that was bad times.

Soo do I get unbanned now or how does this work? Just kidding thanks guys.
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

Yeah, I make no secret of my ego.

Glad you can see both sides of the coin.
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






Please don’t bring back politics. It’s always a complete gak fest, and poisons the whole site. It brings out the worst in all of us, even staff. Fights over politics lead me to take people out of my friends list and dump them straight into ignore. And that damage has never been repaired.

But for the record, I think that the mod in question has been out of line more often than not. And it was always because of politics. Rule 1 always goes out the window when politics start.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/25 18:03:24


 
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







 A.D. wrote:

2. Dakka is a business right, it's there to expand and adapt? When was this site last updated?


Dakka was originally the site for a gaming club in the States owned by a chap called Russ Wakelin. When he opened a shop a shop around the turn of the century, the site morphed into the store webforum. Then when he sold up his shop in 2007, he sold the site for a lump sum on ebay to one of the site moderators; a gentleman in America (Yakface on the site). Whilst the nominal owner, Yakface made an agreement with a British gentleman (alias Legoburner) for him to run the technical side. Which he did (and still does) as a labour of love.



That was about a decade and a half ago. Since then, the two gentlemen in question have grown older and have far more important things to do with their lives. Yakface still stops in occasionally to deal with one or two things that need his attention, and Lego keeps things humming along on the hardware front; the servers and so on. But there isn't really much in the way of active development as a rule of thumb, and what's done under the bonnet is largely to keep the site running smoothly.

So yes, I believe the DCM and ad revenue are sufficient to pay costs (or close to it), but nobody is making money off it, and neither of the gents tap it as an income stream to my knowledge. So it's certainly not a business. It's a holdover of an old affection two gamesr held towards their regular webforum. And the way they like things run is politely and without rancour. So that's how it's done. Simple as.

If you're that desperate to talk politics, the Off Topic of the original Dakka migrated across to what's known as 'The Wasteland'. Many of our site members still frequent it for that purpose. But be warned, it's something of a free-for-all, and nobody there is policing anything.

https://otzone.proboards.com/

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/25 22:44:27



 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 A.D. wrote:
Somebody actually banned me from Off-Topic section for giving my outlandish political opinion in Coronavirus thread which I fully accept, I'm quite a difficult and stubborn person and I was purposely walking a fine line for general amusement. Literally couldn't keep up with the responses in that thread it was heated.


Doesn't sound like a moderation problem to me. Actually sounds like pretty stellar moderation, since that is arguably the most important thread on the forum at the moment and now perhaps people will think twice before gleefully, unabashedly showing their ass in it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/25 22:47:47


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
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Made in us
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant





The Wastes of Krieg

I’ve seen what happens when people try and discuss whether or not people are required to paint their models. We cannot he trusted to try and discuss politics. Leave it to a site dedicated to it and keep it off of Dakka.
   
Made in gb
[MOD]
Villanous Scum







Not seeing an issue here, OP you trolled the Coronavirus thread (as you admit) and your posts were moderated. Seems like things are working as they should. If you do not wish for your posts to be moderated then the really simple fix is to obey the rules as thousands of other users manage to, we are not going to change the culture of this forum nor its very simple rules to fit your preferences instead it is incumbent on you to moderate your own behaviour to fit.

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
 
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