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Hey everyone,
A simple discussion topic this time.

How many factions/groups of non-chaos aligned human rebels do you think exist either in or nearby the Imperium? Furthermore: do you think there is any possibility of any "large" groups that could reasonably be included in the lore at some future point? (I'm talking multiple world, maybe even multiple star-system type large factions here.)

In a larger sense the question becomes: does humanity in 40k have any hope outside of the Imperium?

Thanks for reading!

Short answer: There's a lot.

Longer answer: A significant amount of the Imperium's wars is putting down insurrection from various worlds that have slipped through the cracks and stopped paying tithes, or ones that have seceded for whatever reasons. That's what the IG usually have to deal with, beyond xenos invasions like Orks, it's usually with rebels. A good example of this is the Severan Dominate.

I think the whole grimdarkness of the setting is that the Imperium is pretty much humanity's only remaining hope for survival overall as a species, as all the other fringe human empires aren't even close in size or power, who can easily be wiped by a large enough WAAAGH! or daemonic incursion. So even though it's a bloody regime that is not ideal in any modern sense, in their context, it is the only reasonable option available that doesn't involve being subsumed by xenos or chaos.

I’m sure there are lots, but most are probably minor so don’t get mentioned, like the variety of aliens isn’t limited to the playable factions.

Non chaos, non imperium humans that are definitely mentioned in the fluff off the top of my head are genestealer cultists, tau auxiliaries, squats (abhumans count as human right?) and interex (wiped out during the great crusade).

Just use Necromunda, lots of non-Chao rebels in there... And that’s one hive world. Pretty sure there are lots of lores in books, Master of Sanctity lore have rebels in there.. Cult of the spiral dawn have non-GSC rebels in there too. Deathwatch : Xenos Hunters have few rebels in there I think so. Dante have hint at clans in his planet.. Can’t think of what else that rebels in lore... but there are too many.

I feel like Grimskull summarized the topic pretty well. Can’t think of a currently example but human rebellions are fairly common. Every now and then you might have a human noble or big shot ecclisiarch declaring a few systems independent, it’s commonly swiftly crushed. I think the biggest in lore example would be the age of apostasy when Goge Vandire more or less split the Imperium in two, entirely without involving chaos. That particular incident ended with an enormous warp storm destroying his fleet. The storm is now known as “The storm of the Emperors wrath”. Afterwards some 13 space marine chapters helped mop up the rest of the rebellion, though it was already broken at that point.

Vandire's fleet was destroyed by the storm. In that case the rebellion succeeded and replaced Vandire. Of course, since they succeeded they were able to write the history and their rebellion was retroactively justified.

There are plenty of non-Chaos, non-alien rebellions and actually probably would be the most common type of conflict the Imperium engages in. People will fight for all sorts of material and ideological reasons. They don't even have to all be secessionists. Particularly in the aftermath of the Great Rift, communication is unreliable so individual worlds and sectors might very well fight among themselves, all claiming to be acting in the name of the Imperium. The winner gets to impose their view of things. In all the upheaval as well, secessionists could very well succeed in pulling a world or even a sector out of the Imperium, and nobody might notice for a long while (or even ever) due to records being lost, Astropathic communications and warp travel being disrupted, etc...

 Grimskul wrote:
Short answer: There's a lot.

Longer answer: A significant amount of the Imperium's wars is putting down insurrection from various worlds that have slipped through the cracks and stopped paying tithes, or ones that have seceded for whatever reasons. That's what the IG usually have to deal with, beyond xenos invasions like Orks, it's usually with rebels. A good example of this is the Severan Dominate.

I think the whole grimdarkness of the setting is that the Imperium is pretty much humanity's only remaining hope for survival overall as a species, as all the other fringe human empires aren't even close in size or power, who can easily be wiped by a large enough WAAAGH! or daemonic incursion. So even though it's a bloody regime that is not ideal in any modern sense, in their context, it is the only reasonable option available that doesn't involve being subsumed by xenos or chaos.

Didnt an Entire Segmumtum declare independce for a little while. I think.it was before the Age of Apostasy

Lexicanum has a whole bunch of anti-imperial uprisings listed here. Most end up getting crushed quickly and even when chaos doesn't start the rebellion, it tends to hijack it later on, so a surviving, non-chaos rebellion seems pretty rare.

Thanks for that list!

In particular I think the: "Logicians" rebellion is of interest to me :-) It sounds like pretty much exactly what I was looking to find! (well, it's not very large in terms of planets or anything, but still unquelled!)

( https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Logicians )

Edit:

Also this one sounds awesome too!

( https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Severan_Dominate )

 Tiennos wrote:
Lexicanum has a whole bunch of anti-imperial uprisings listed here. Most end up getting crushed quickly and even when chaos doesn't start the rebellion, it tends to hijack it later on, so a surviving, non-chaos rebellion seems pretty rare.

Actually I would question whether non-Chaos rebellions are really that rare. There are pocket empires being recontacted and re-absorbed, and that itself suggests it is possible for humanity to survive without the Imperium. Remember the Imperium redacts its histories and maps to conceal the truth, prevent panic, or ideological taint. The Tau are a threat because of their ideology more so than their direct military threat for example.

The Orpheus Sector (from FW's books) was lost to the Necrons, and the counterattack failed, so the Orpheus Sector was re-labelled as wilderness space, and all its records sealed. Pretty soon memories would fade and nobody outside of a few rare privileged individuals would know of the past existence of the sector. I would imagine any successful rebellion against the Imperium that successfully fights off Imperial counterattacks would be similarly redacted to avoid the dangerous idea that rebellions can succeed from spreading to the wider Imperium. Easier to wipe it from history and memory, and maybe console oneself with the idea that "someday" the Imperium would find the resources to try retaking it again.

Iracundus wrote:

 Tiennos wrote:
Lexicanum has a whole bunch of anti-imperial uprisings listed here. Most end up getting crushed quickly and even when chaos doesn't start the rebellion, it tends to hijack it later on, so a surviving, non-chaos rebellion seems pretty rare.

Actually I would question whether non-Chaos rebellions are really that rare. There are pocket empires being recontacted and re-absorbed, and that itself suggests it is possible for humanity to survive without the Imperium. Remember the Imperium redacts its histories and maps to conceal the truth, prevent panic, or ideological taint. The Tau are a threat because of their ideology more so than their direct military threat for example.

The Orpheus Sector (from FW's books) was lost to the Necrons, and the counterattack failed, so the Orpheus Sector was re-labelled as wilderness space, and all its records sealed. Pretty soon memories would fade and nobody outside of a few rare privileged individuals would know of the past existence of the sector. I would imagine any successful rebellion against the Imperium that successfully fights off Imperial counterattacks would be similarly redacted to avoid the dangerous idea that rebellions can succeed from spreading to the wider Imperium. Easier to wipe it from history and memory, and maybe console oneself with the idea that "someday" the Imperium would find the resources to try retaking it again.

The big question is: how well informed are chaos forces? Would they be able to learn of these "lost" regions? A champion of chaos would instantly jump on the chance to offer power to the rebels and unfortunately, revolutions tend to be led by power-hungry people who would certainly love that kind of deal. That's why I think a lot of rebellions, even if they didn't start with any chaos influence, are likely to end up corrupted anyway.

Human sectors can absolutely survive on their own. It's a big universe so the odds of tyranids or an ork Waaaagh!! showing up aren't that high in the end. But the Imperium is patient. Even if it takes a few centuries, it will eventually send its military to crush the rebels, so you'd have to be in some pretty remote/unimportant area to survive for a long time as an independent human realm.

Not all of Macharius's conquests were retained or retaken after his death. That was nearly 1,000 years ago before the now current Great Rift era. The fact that the Imperium never retook that territory is indication that it cannot always get its act together in terms of organization or resources, and shows systems can slip forever beyond its grasp.

Before anyone tries to say it's "only" been 1,000 years and the Imperium could just be taking its time, the Imperium has no surplus to spare especially after the Great Rift opening. There were worlds lost after the Heresy that seem to have never been reconquered. 10,000 years and no sign of an Imperial reconquest. Sure the Imperium might ideologically claim it will be back "some time", but at some point it becomes an empty threat and those worlds have achieved de facto independence.

Fair point. With the Rift, the Imperium has a lot on its plate and little ressources to spare, so this is probably the best time to be a rebel! As long as some crazy inquisitor doesn't decide to exterminatus everything to solve the problem, anyway...

How long a small rebellion can last mostly depends on how long the Imperium needs to take care of its bigger problems, I suppose. It would be interesting to see some minor empires use the current difficulties to negotiate some sort of non-aggression pact, protectorate status or something in that vein.

I see a common response to the Great Rift being local leaders seize control "for the duration of the emergency" when they are cut off from communication with Terra or Segmentum authorities. They might still claim to be part of the Imperium, and they might well believe it themselves. But when you have lots of little pockets or individual worlds claiming to represent the Imperium, then you open the possibility for local infighting and "Imperial vs Imperial" wars. One sector for example could demand extra resources and military forces from another, in the name of the Imperium, while the other sector could view this as an illegitimate unreasonable demand that would critically weaken them. Both sectors could then go to war, both claiming they are representing the Imperium.

There are also all sorts of opportunities for Inquisitors of various factions to pursue their agenda. Those of the Recongregator faction for example might support these pocket regimes in the hopes of reforming them and the wider Imperium. Istvaanian faction Inquisitors might fan the fire of conflict or keep them burning by helping both sides. All of them can believe they are acting in the interests of the Imperium.

chimera0205 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Short answer: There's a lot.

Longer answer: A significant amount of the Imperium's wars is putting down insurrection from various worlds that have slipped through the cracks and stopped paying tithes, or ones that have seceded for whatever reasons. That's what the IG usually have to deal with, beyond xenos invasions like Orks, it's usually with rebels. A good example of this is the Severan Dominate.

I think the whole grimdarkness of the setting is that the Imperium is pretty much humanity's only remaining hope for survival overall as a species, as all the other fringe human empires aren't even close in size or power, who can easily be wiped by a large enough WAAAGH! or daemonic incursion. So even though it's a bloody regime that is not ideal in any modern sense, in their context, it is the only reasonable option available that doesn't involve being subsumed by xenos or chaos.

Didnt an Entire Segmumtum declare independce for a little while. I think.it was before the Age of Apostasy

It's called the Nova Terra Interregnum.
We're not entirely sure what happened, though we do know Cypher was involved.