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Wait what I hear you cry?!

Well looking at the Lumineth and the Sisters of Battle starter sets and the new launch set (not starter) that GW is doing for 40K, made me think. Perhaps GW is going to abandon the idea of a single starter set for their two core games. The starter sets have always had a great discount and with everything in them including the big lore, art and rule book they've always been a great "here get this and get stated" purchase. Except they are rubbish if you don't like one of the two armies in them; and they also pigeon the customer market into often one or two key armies per edition and through editions often result in one army come up ahead - for 40K that's marines and for AoS that's very likely Stormcast.


So when you look at the starter sets for Luminoth and Sisters of Battle I can't help but feel that the combo of codex, dice, cards, models etc... all adds up to an experience that's just as expensive (perhaps a little cheaper); but which focuses on a single army instead of two. If GW were to roll them out en-mass they'd be really popular not just for existing customers (who might make up the bulk of early purchases hence why I think GW is experimenting to see how we react to them sales wise right now); but also to new customers. With them a new customer can be directed to a single box that gives them everything to get started with a single army. No fussing over buying models they don't want; no having to find a friend to split the box with etc... It's one box one force and its good to go right from the opening of the lid.


I feel we are perhaps seeing a potential future there. Sure its actually increasing start-up costs instead of reducing; but so long as the models inside and the codex/battletome remain on individual sale; then its an ideal option for those who want to start and who have the money. Meanwhile there's always killteam/Skirmish/Warcry/etc... for those who want a slower and more easy start with less up-front.

Maybe but ive seen a fair few folks looking to go halfs or swap contents on the new 40k box, the danger of mono-boxes is padding with guff (although topping bop would take some doing)

although if they are doing the ebook thing a code for the matching codex might shift units

 Overread wrote:
Wait what I hear you cry?!

Well looking at the Lumineth and the Sisters of Battle starter sets and the new launch set (not starter) that GW is doing for 40K, made me think. Perhaps GW is going to abandon the idea of a single starter set for their two core games. The starter sets have always had a great discount and with everything in them including the big lore, art and rule book they've always been a great "here get this and get stated" purchase. Except they are rubbish if you don't like one of the two armies in them; and they also pigeon the customer market into often one or two key armies per edition and through editions often result in one army come up ahead - for 40K that's marines and for AoS that's very likely Stormcast.


So when you look at the starter sets for Luminoth and Sisters of Battle I can't help but feel that the combo of codex, dice, cards, models etc... all adds up to an experience that's just as expensive (perhaps a little cheaper); but which focuses on a single army instead of two. If GW were to roll them out en-mass they'd be really popular not just for existing customers (who might make up the bulk of early purchases hence why I think GW is experimenting to see how we react to them sales wise right now); but also to new customers. With them a new customer can be directed to a single box that gives them everything to get started with a single army. No fussing over buying models they don't want; no having to find a friend to split the box with etc... It's one box one force and its good to go right from the opening of the lid.


I feel we are perhaps seeing a potential future there. Sure its actually increasing start-up costs instead of reducing; but so long as the models inside and the codex/battletome remain on individual sale; then its an ideal option for those who want to start and who have the money. Meanwhile there's always killteam/Skirmish/Warcry/etc... for those who want a slower and more easy start with less up-front.

If they do, I think they need to go more toward the SoB than the Lumineth set. The Lumineth one is really weak compared to the SoB one, model wise.

With the limited "Launch box" for 40k though, you may be on to something.

Deleted.

 Sasori wrote:
If they do, I think they need to go more toward the SoB than the Lumineth set. The Lumineth one is really weak compared to the SoB one, model wise.

I think the Lumineth one looks pretty good from a gameplay standpoint. Three (presumably) Battleline units not tied to any of the Elemental Temples will be a good start for most Lumineth armies. The only oddball is the Light of Eltharion (I would have preferred a generic Hero instead).

To be fair as there's also a battletome in there its a "one per customer" type of product.

Now I'm sure die-hard fans will buy and resell extras, but the intent is clearly that its a one-stop start to an army. So having a unique character makes sense; by design its not intended to be like a start collecting set.

 Overread wrote:
To be fair as there's also a battletome in there its a "one per customer" type of product.

Now I'm sure die-hard fans will buy and resell extras, but the intent is clearly that its a one-stop start to an army. So having a unique character makes sense; by design its not intended to be like a start collecting set.

I was looking at it from the point that not everyone may want the Light of Eltharion in their army, hence a generic Hero would have been a better choice IMHO.

with the current setup of the Box I guess GW is moving away from the 2 Player Starter Set were it made sense that people who start buy it twice and share the content for a beginner army

torwards to a more expensive but "buy only once" Box to sell more regular stuff

also adding smaller beginner sets for a cheap entry to the game (to keep the impression of being beginner friendly with the option that people buy the small, medium and large box to start their army instead of buying the large box twice)

 Ghaz wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
If they do, I think they need to go more toward the SoB than the Lumineth set. The Lumineth one is really weak compared to the SoB one, model wise.

I think the Lumineth one looks pretty good from a gameplay standpoint. Three (presumably) Battleline units not tied to any of the Elemental Temples will be a good start for most Lumineth armies. The only oddball is the Light of Eltharion (I would have preferred a generic Hero instead).

Is it three battleline? I don't remember if they mentioned the min squad size for the spears. I just figured they were min 10 spears and min 5 cavalry with Eltharion for a HQ choice. While not a bad start per say, It just seems really lackluster compared to how large the SoB was, IMO.


That being said, I saw the GW twitter talked about the Doomsday walker and the Lokhust Heavy destroyers being soon (Same for the SM) makes me wonder if they are going to do a battlebox style like Sob for the Necrons and Space Marines shortly after the launch of 9th, that would include a few new units.

Might make some sense especially as people are moving toward online away from direct. While no FLGS is going to want to keep in the 20 odd faction starters for 40k and AoS as opposed to 2 or 3 generic starters an online retailer would have less qualms about it.

 Sasori wrote:


Is it three battleline? I don't remember if they mentioned the min squad size for the spears. I just figured they were min 10 spears and min 5 cavalry with Eltharion for a HQ choice. While not a bad start per say, It just seems really lackluster compared to how large the SoB was, IMO.

40k starts with Patrol Detachments...which the Sisters box met.
Age of Sigmar was starting to build off of WarCry or Path to Glory as the 'entry point', both of which would make good use of this box for the purposes of just getting into the army quickly. Remember that Path to Glory rules are in the army books, much like Crusade stuff is supposed to be in the future codices.

That being said, I saw the GW twitter talked about the Doomsday walker and the Lokhust Heavy destroyers being soon (Same for the SM) makes me wonder if they are going to do a battlebox style like Sob for the Necrons and Space Marines shortly after the launch of 9th, that would include a few new units.

Battlebox is different to an army pack like they did for Sisters.

Battleboxes are things like Tooth and Claw or Forgebane or Blood of the Phoenix.
Right now? We've only seen two army packs--Sisters and Lumineth.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sasori wrote:


Is it three battleline? I don't remember if they mentioned the min squad size for the spears. I just figured they were min 10 spears and min 5 cavalry with Eltharion for a HQ choice. While not a bad start per say, It just seems really lackluster compared to how large the SoB was, IMO.

40k starts with Patrol Detachments...which the Sisters box met.
Age of Sigmar was starting to build off of WarCry or Path to Glory as the 'entry point', both of which would make good use of this box for the purposes of just getting into the army quickly. Remember that Path to Glory rules are in the army books, much like Crusade stuff is supposed to be in the future codices.

That being said, I saw the GW twitter talked about the Doomsday walker and the Lokhust Heavy destroyers being soon (Same for the SM) makes me wonder if they are going to do a battlebox style like Sob for the Necrons and Space Marines shortly after the launch of 9th, that would include a few new units.

Battlebox is different to an army pack like they did for Sisters.

Battleboxes are things like Tooth and Claw or Forgebane or Blood of the Phoenix.
Right now? We've only seen two army packs--Sisters and Lumineth.

Ok Kan, it's pretty obvious that I meant "Army Set" by the context of my post, since I directly brought up the SoB one as an example. Do you have some kind compulsion that drives you to correct every small mistake in a post? Maybe try discussing about the idea of my post instead of needlessly correcting a small misnomer.

I fully expect there’ll be a “know no fear” style starter for 9th. It’s at a more reasonable cost than the big boxes, equivalent to AAA console game which will help get the initial sale. Coloured plastic, Snap fit, step by step “how to play” etc. What interests me is if they’ll go to solo forces in a box, with a few options or stick with the 2 force structure. Can see it going either way.

I don't know why this launch box would mean they're not longer doing starter sets.

There has to be a point of entry for new players.

 Sasori wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sasori wrote:


Is it three battleline? I don't remember if they mentioned the min squad size for the spears. I just figured they were min 10 spears and min 5 cavalry with Eltharion for a HQ choice. While not a bad start per say, It just seems really lackluster compared to how large the SoB was, IMO.

40k starts with Patrol Detachments...which the Sisters box met.
Age of Sigmar was starting to build off of WarCry or Path to Glory as the 'entry point', both of which would make good use of this box for the purposes of just getting into the army quickly. Remember that Path to Glory rules are in the army books, much like Crusade stuff is supposed to be in the future codices.

That being said, I saw the GW twitter talked about the Doomsday walker and the Lokhust Heavy destroyers being soon (Same for the SM) makes me wonder if they are going to do a battlebox style like Sob for the Necrons and Space Marines shortly after the launch of 9th, that would include a few new units.

Battlebox is different to an army pack like they did for Sisters.

Battleboxes are things like Tooth and Claw or Forgebane or Blood of the Phoenix.
Right now? We've only seen two army packs--Sisters and Lumineth.

Ok Kan, it's pretty obvious that I meant "Army Set" by the context of my post, since I directly brought up the SoB one as an example. Do you have some kind compulsion that drives you to correct every small mistake in a post? Maybe try discussing about the idea of my post instead of needlessly correcting a small misnomer.

That's what the first half of the post did, Sasori. Where I talked about how 40k starts with Patrol Detachments and how AoS was starting to use WarCry or Path to Glory as entry points for the game, which the Lumineth army pack is going to meet(we've seen the WarCry setup for them and the spears+cavalry are in it).

I "corrected a small misnomer" that is something which is incredibly common and can mess a bit with the discussion surrounding a thing. If someone had called Tooth and Claw, Forgebane, or Blood of the Phoenix "starter sets" in a post I was replying to? I would have corrected that too, because those weren't starter sets but were battleboxes instead.

Your reply is you correcting him.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Your reply is you correcting him.

The answer is clearly Yes...

I also addressed a bit that was "the idea of his post"(that the Sisters of Battle army pack was better than the Lumineth one coming out). The games are set up differently, we don't have "Detachments" to fill out in AoS like 40k does. There's two notes for us to hit: Battleline and Heroes. Three if you want to count "Warscroll Battalions"(which are the closest thing we have to Detachments, but even then they're more like the Specialist Detachments in that they tell you what to take).
40k has a whole different setup in that even a small game can have a different couple of Detachments in there, where the number of 'required items' can vary from army to army thanks to points.

I hope like hell we see more Army Packs. I want to see 40k getting an AdMech one, a Guard one, a Tau one, a World Eaters one etc etc. I want to see AoS getting one for the Seraphon with a taster of new Saurus and Skink models, new Kroxigors, and so on...I just want to see ALL THE ARMY PACKS!

 Kanluwen wrote:
I also addressed a bit that was "the idea of his post"(that the Sisters of Battle army pack was better than the Lumineth one coming out). The games are set up differently, we don't have "Detachments" to fill out in AoS like 40k does. There's two notes for us to hit: Battleline and Heroes.

I hope like hell we see more Army Packs. I want to see 40k getting an AdMech one, a Guard one, a Tau one, a World Eaters one etc etc. I want to see AoS getting one for the Seraphon with a taster of new Saurus and Skink models, new Kroxigors, and so on...I just want to see ALL THE ARMY PACKS!

The SoB army pack had significantly more model content than the Lumineth one, which is why I think it's superior.

I play both AoS and 40k. I understand they are set up differently, but that doesn't excuse the much lower model count in the Lumineth set.

It does if they're full kits vs easy builds, at least for my personal tastes.

Also if the armies are heavier on points than you might think. Have they ever actually given a rough ballpark on the points value for the Lumineth box?

 Kanluwen wrote:
It does if they're full kits vs easy builds, at least for my personal tastes.

Also if the armies are heavier on points than you might think. Have they ever actually given a rough ballpark on the points value for the Lumineth box?

No, not that I've seen. I would guess Eltherion is somewhere in the 250ish point range based on his abilities that were previewed though.

I would guess the box is around 500ish points, depending on the cavalry. 5 Kavalos Deathriders are about 180 and I am guessing that these are going to be a bit more elite than the Bonereapers.

If the army is less elite, then it's probably a lot cheaper.

I mean zero snark but how is indomitus not the standard starter set? It contains two starting sized forces, the core rule book, and the stats for the included forces. The only thing missing from the description for the box is that dice are no longer included.

I get that the lumineth and sisters releases are very much one army focused. Just don’t see indomitus being very different from dark imperium.

 privateer4hire wrote:
I mean zero snark but how is indomitus not the standard starter set? It contains two starting sized forces, the core rule book, and the stats for the included forces. The only thing missing from the description for the box is that dice are no longer included.

I get that the lumineth and sisters releases are very much one army focused. Just don’t see indomitus being very different from dark imperium.

One major difference is that Indomintus is a limited print run, compared to Dark Imperium which was available the entire edition. Once it's gone, it's gone.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't know why this launch box would mean they're not longer doing starter sets.

There has to be a point of entry for new players.

Wednesday is starter box welcome day for new players. Thursday is their turn in the barrel.

 Sasori wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:
I mean zero snark but how is indomitus not the standard starter set? It contains two starting sized forces, the core rule book, and the stats for the included forces. The only thing missing from the description for the box is that dice are no longer included.

I get that the lumineth and sisters releases are very much one army focused. Just don’t see indomitus being very different from dark imperium.

One major difference is that Indomintus is a limited print run, compared to Dark Imperium which was available the entire edition. Once it's gone, it's gone.

Okay. Thank you. Wasn’t aware that indomitus was a splash release.

 privateer4hire wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:
I mean zero snark but how is indomitus not the standard starter set? It contains two starting sized forces, the core rule book, and the stats for the included forces. The only thing missing from the description for the box is that dice are no longer included.

I get that the lumineth and sisters releases are very much one army focused. Just don’t see indomitus being very different from dark imperium.

One major difference is that Indomintus is a limited print run, compared to Dark Imperium which was available the entire edition. Once it's gone, it's gone.

Okay. Thank you. Wasn’t aware that indomitus was a splash release.

It isn't, at least not in the sense of the AoS boxes where, if you don't order them the day the go on preorder, they're sold out forever.

Indomitus is the primary (and so far only) vehicle for the new edition and the rules. It will likely stick around for a bit.

Looking at the sprues, the bladeguard, bladeguard ancient, judiciar and chaplain are all on one big sprue, and the lieutenant, captain, intercessors and bikes are all on their own ones.

so i could see them sticking 3 bikes, 10 assault intercessors, and one, maybe both, of the characters in a smaller starter set box. or alternatively dropping the bikes and one of the characters for a more DI sized starter.

i think the SoB and Lumineth box sets are just a good way to get people to buy in to a limited run box set when an army gets an entirely new range, and give GW that initial sales push.

when we look at kids getting into the hobby, who maybe aren't gonna start by going along to a games club, then getting them two armies as cheap as possible is still vital. everything in one box, inc dice, a ruler and a how-to-play booklet just makes sense. you need this and some clippers/a knife and thats it (+ glue if not push fit)

The SoB box was also £125 I think? So that's £250 to get into the hobby via those (if you could even get them for two different armies), vs £25 for First Strike, £50 for Know No Fear or £95 for Dark Imperium. What kid saving up pocket money to play with a sibling or one of their parents is gonna jump in at that level?

edit: also, DI is still pretty great value even if you chuck out the half you don't want, relative to other GW prices. If you went and bought a £60 start collecting set and the £35 rule book, you'd still not end up with as many models as you do for just one of the halves of DI.

Ideally from a marketing standpoint, you would want starter kits for all factions that contain the following:

Core HQ model in a unique gear/pose (one that's always useful but mabey not top teir competitive).

2 Core troop units

1 transport/light attack vehicle/niche infantry unit

1 optional elite unit/buffing character


Basically a small self contained army that wont decimate opponents but will give you a good start.

These models should be bundled with about 15-20% off full retail.



This is an ideal package for a starter set from a multi-faction war game.


GW used to do this, but realized that they could continue to raise prices because people will keep paying them even at the cost of loosing some customers, because they were gonna loose those customers anyway once cheap recasters started becoming more common.

I doubt they're moving away from starters, they need something to draw new folk into the hobby and a two-player boxed game is excellent in that regard.

Though, at the rate the price of their boxed sets are rising it might be better just for each person to grab a SC set of the faction they actually want and go at it.

What I would like to see them do a "grab bag" set with a half-dozen "squads" from various factions. Imperial vs. Xenos for example. With the Imperial side having a 5-man marine squad, guard + heavy weapon, an assassin and an Admech walker. The Xenos side having some ork mercenary boyz + eldar banshees + tau crisis suit(s). Give a variety of factions to try out, see which one you like best. Some crazy allying to be sure, but it'd be a fun little set all the same - and certainly something different.

Voss wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:
I mean zero snark but how is indomitus not the standard starter set? It contains two starting sized forces, the core rule book, and the stats for the included forces. The only thing missing from the description for the box is that dice are no longer included.

I get that the lumineth and sisters releases are very much one army focused. Just don’t see indomitus being very different from dark imperium.

One major difference is that Indomintus is a limited print run, compared to Dark Imperium which was available the entire edition. Once it's gone, it's gone.

Okay. Thank you. Wasn’t aware that indomitus was a splash release.

It isn't, at least not in the sense of the AoS boxes where, if you don't order them the day the go on preorder, they're sold out forever.

Indomitus is the primary (and so far only) vehicle for the new edition and the rules. It will likely stick around for a bit.

They did say they printed a boatload of them, but it is still a one shot print run like the AoS boxes and limited 40l ones. There is really no telling how long it will stick around. One can hope they actually printed enough so that it won't be an issue, but I am always skeptical of GW when it comes to that.