Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 aphyon wrote:
That's why we prefer the 4th ed codex it feels more like BT than anything since.

By 5e revision I mean the 4e codex with the errata from January 2010 (m1620223a).

It helped close combat templars as well with the 3++ shields on the terminators, especially when facing early edition AP2 spam armies.

We are playing core 5th ed rules so all storm shields are a 3++ no matter who is using them. i remember it took them 2 years to errata that for dark angels, but since we were playing friendly we already treated it that way even back then- all general war gear is the same.

I'm not sure that the 5th edition update(s) was really intended to help balance with Black Templars.
It just helped to untangle some of the mess caused by having wargear having different rules depending on what colour dude was holding it.

'I'm sure that Assault Squads having 3pt 3++ won't do anything weird with balance' said probably the same person who let Sanguinary Priests take Exsanguinators and Nartheciums.

Storm shields are not 3 points you might be thinking of combat shield that are a 5++ but i think those were 5 points. the price also varies depending on who is carrying it. it is more expensive for independent characters.

 aphyon wrote:
Storm shields are not 3 points you might be thinking of combat shield that are a 5++ but i think those were 5 points. the price also varies depending on who is carrying it. it is more expensive for independent characters.

They were 3pts for Black Templars Assault Squads (codex 4th ed. pg.39).

 Lord Damocles wrote:
They were 3pts for Black Templars Assault Squads (codex 4th ed. pg.39).

Correct. They were one of the few things that also had a points errata, though sadly not the 4e-priced assault squads themselves.

Terminators all the way for you 4e-54 templar assault needs.

I was just going by the armory where they are listed at 10 points. apparently only the jump guys get them cheap, sword brethren still pay the full points.

 aphyon wrote:
I was just going by the armory where they are listed at 10 points. apparently only the jump guys get them cheap, sword brethren still pay the full points.

In the context of the 5e update they had to increase the points, though I think they went a little overboard pushing it all the way to 15 given that the templar assault marines were already more expensive and less well equipped than their counterparts.

In the context of prohammer the old costs with the new rules may well work. Their damage output against infantry is anaemic, but 27 points a model for 3++ and meltabombs is a tempting meatshield for a jump-pack chaplain in games where low volume high AP weapons are common.

Well he doesn't have any jump troops in the force he picked up, just grimaldus, helbrecht, the emperors champion. crusader squads, terminators, land raiders, land speeders and dreadnoughts. more than enough to get the job done.

 aphyon wrote:
Well he doesn't have any jump troops in the force he picked up, just grimaldus, helbrecht, the emperors champion. crusader squads, terminators, land raiders, land speeders and dreadnoughts. more than enough to get the job done.

Sounds solid enough for the 4e book.

I played them for a bit back in 5th as part of a 'tale of four warlords' painting thing, they were mid tier with a lot of trap choices but also some good stuff to lean in to. I had a 'Vinculus Crusade' theme going on, as much for the inquisitor as anything else as playing a BT terminator rush without a psy-hood against chaos players would just see the unit shuffled into a corner for the whole game with lash :p

Well fortunately none of the chaos players in our group do the lash thing, we have a couple iron warriors, khorne berserkers and word bearers but they all use the 3.5 codex for obvious reasons.

So dead edition and all so can do my own thing, but just idly curious on what others think.

I finally got my hands on Codex: Eye of Terror, and mentally thinking of doing a Lost and the Damned list. The Arch Heretic is specifically a Chaos Lieutenant/Sorcerer from the Chaos Space Marines book - which in its entry specifically states can have a unit of Chosen as their retinue. The Lost and the Damned do not list Chosen as an Elites choice though, which is the slot they take up.

Me personally, I like the idea of a small time Chaos Lord and their one badass squad leading traitors and mutants, and the people I play with will be fine with it I'm sure. I'm just kind of curious how others read the list I suppose. And if nothing else, the list specifically allowed you to ally in select Chaos Space Marine units, including 0-1 elites, so its honestly kind of an academic thing here - i just like the idea of them being the personal retinue of the lord.

 kurhanik wrote:
So dead edition and all so can do my own thing, but just idly curious on what others think.

I finally got my hands on Codex: Eye of Terror, and mentally thinking of doing a Lost and the Damned list. The Arch Heretic is specifically a Chaos Lieutenant/Sorcerer from the Chaos Space Marines book - which in its entry specifically states can have a unit of Chosen as their retinue. The Lost and the Damned do not list Chosen as an Elites choice though, which is the slot they take up.

Me personally, I like the idea of a small time Chaos Lord and their one badass squad leading traitors and mutants, and the people I play with will be fine with it I'm sure. I'm just kind of curious how others read the list I suppose. And if nothing else, the list specifically allowed you to ally in select Chaos Space Marine units, including 0-1 elites, so its honestly kind of an academic thing here - i just like the idea of them being the personal retinue of the lord.

If you look at the concurrent Chaos codex (3.5th), the Chosen entry states "However many Chosen are included in the army they occupy a single Elites choice in the force organisation chart."

I'd play the retinue as taking up your allied CSM elites slot, but you can still take a standalone unit of Chosen as part of the entry too (provided your list is enough points to include the numbers).

A side note on retinues, yes you can take them as a retinue and as an elite, but if taken as a retinue the independent character may not leave the squad until it is all dead(keeping him alive is kinda what they are there for to begin with so it makes sense). It counts as his own single unit unlike any other unit he could freely join or leave in the movement phase.

Yeah, that's all fair. Actually glancing through my 3.5 dex for the first time in awhile and I forgot/misremembered a few things. Namely that Obliterators are Elite and not Heavy Support, I think that memory leak is because I remember Iron Warriors giving more Heavy Support slots which is what I mentally mathed as the extra Obliterators, and completely forgot their whole thing was just completely removing the 0-1 limit on them.

I got to say, its really fun mentally thinking up a list to run with Lost and the Damned, even if actually building it will be a long way off since part of the impetus of finally grabbing the book is that the Wargames Atlantic kickstarter 'totally not traitor guard' should be shipping later this year. Still fun to at least roughly plan things out.

And yeah, on Chosen on further reading you are right on it eating the allied elite slot. Still, I think most of my friends would be fine with me using a non allied slot on them so long as its not a full spam and I then don't take the allied slot as Obliterators. Ie: twist the rules to take Chosen + Obliterators bad, but twist them to take a small Chosen retinue + 1 squad of Chaos Marines with a Mark would be fine by them. Also kind of moot as the sample list I built to give rough idea of what I'd want to build around maxed out its Elite slots anyways with a unit of Chosen + 2 Daemon packs (to give me a reason to finally break out some Daemonettes I grabbed long ago and then forgot about).

Well i hope you have fun with it. we have a few 3.5 chaos players in our group and they run the gambit from word bearers, iron warriors and khorne berserkers. loads of silly fun. one of the best moments was khorne dedicated chaos cultists attacking a dark eldar raider, causing it to explode and kill every last cultist. good times indeed.

kurhanik you might be interested in the advarsaries list from the 3rd edition Witch Hunters codex to supplement your traitors (print only, not the free PDF version).

It was a reprint/update of the traitors/mutants units plus two mortal HQ choices - the rogue psyker and the apostate cardinal, the latter giving you more troop slots to fill out in higher point games.

A.T. wrote:
kurhanik you might be interested in the advarsaries list from the 3rd edition Witch Hunters codex to supplement your traitors (print only, not the free PDF version).

It was a reprint/update of the traitors/mutants units plus two mortal HQ choices - the rogue psyker and the apostate cardinal, the latter giving you more troop slots to fill out in higher point games.

Somewhat annoyingly, the adversary rules are the only source of a non-Marine HQ for the Lost and the Damned in 3rd edition. Although retrospectively I think adding Rogue Psykers to the LatD list would be very appropriate.

As it happens, the Adversary rules only allowed LatD to take Rogue Psykers, not Apostate Cardinals or Pyschic Apocalypses. The barring of Apostate Cardinals in particular was baffling to me.

You know what is silly, I *have* that book and never noticed that part somehow. Never read through it as thoroughly as the Daemon Hunters book which also had rules for waves of daemons and such. Main thing I remember from the book outside of the Sisters themselves is Stormtroopers with shotguns to represent Arbites.

Looking through them, that is neat and I'll have to remember both hq choices for the future, especially the Apostate Cardinal. Mind you the usual point level I build and play at is 1500 points, but dang at higher points values just being able to spam Traitors without worrying about running out of slots sounds fun since you can run them with as few as 5 members of the squad and they get Infiltrate when not led by an Aspiring Champion. So even at low point values could be a fun little hq to just thrown down a bunch of speed bumps while the main force advances.

Edit: huh wow you are right on the Cardinals, that really is baffling. Well, that is a rule that I think the group will just ignore.

 kurhanik wrote:
You know what is silly, I *have* that book and never noticed that part somehow. Never read through it as thoroughly as the Daemon Hunters book which also had rules for waves of daemons and such.

I think people mostly ignored advarsary rules back in the day as only the 'psychic apocalypse' option in Witch Hunters could be taken in casual / tournament games without altering you list, and giving your HQ the 'psychic' tag against witch hunters wasn't always a bonus.

The 'puppet dance' psychic power was particularly ineffective against 3e sisters due to their anemic close combat abilities and mechanised lists. It was disproportionately effective outside of fighting the WH codex though - imagine full units of thunderwolves or a dreadnought squadron getting hit with it.

As for the daemonhunters advarsaries i've only seen them used once, the greater daemon possession applied to a jump pack/blessed weapon canoness to represent a generic saint. A bit steep at 197pts but the regular saint Celestine was a risky pick, as demonstrated in one of the first white dwarf battle reports where she was killed early by a tau railgun and disabled all faith powers for the rest of the game.

Fun things GW used to do. the 4th ed main rulebook had a bunch of rules sets for sub games of 40K-kill teams, combat patrol etc... including special scenarios-

We pulled the convoy ambush rules for a full sized game. it started out ok with his entire turn of ambush shooting failing to kill the lead land raider. the real saving grace for the army, is that his chaos lord lived long enough to kill it with close combat attacks. then his close combat outfitted chaos dreadnought proceeded to get the magic 1 for rage 3 turns in a row killing 2 more land raiders. because of the way the VP system works in the scenario it ended up being a much closer game than expected. but still a victory for chaos.