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Serious question no hyperbole just straight how is an 8th edition codex using tyranid or eldar or dark eldar or tau player meant to win against marine armies now. Gw seem to place an additional wound at only 20% of a models point value so your now facing a marine army that just doubled its entire wound value. And it only cost the marine player 20%of their points? How do you win? Please tell me.

Nobody played minimarines anyway, so they didn't double their wound values.

If anything, the problem is going to be competing with the increased offensive deadliness. GW isn't just boosting wounds, they're inflating offensive stats at the same time for many or most of the weapons in the codex.

The game is getting even deadlier, not less deadly. Your problem is not going to be killing marines, it is going to be getting shot off the table even more efficiently than you were before by new Imperium weapons that are even more overpowered than the old ones, which were already overtuned compared to Xenos alternatives.

Space Marine armies haven't doubled their entire wound value. Non-Primaris armies have doubled their entire wound value. Play against the non-Primaris armies the same way you would play against the Primaris armies.

Seeing as you apparently have access to a time machine as you know the points costs and everything else in the new codex, I have to ask- can I have next week's lottery numbers?

Icegoat wrote:
Serious question no hyperbole just straight how is an 8th edition codex using tyranid or eldar or dark eldar or tau player meant to win against marine armies now.

How did you compete against primaris before?

Well ideally you would outplay your opponent, unless you're saying 40k isn't about that and is only a matter of math in which case you should buy a better army.

As people say - W2 models are not that new.

The bigger issue is going to be crazy returns on MMs compared with every other anti-tank in the game (and that could especially hurt certain Xenos armies who fall back on D6 damage one shot guns - at least before a change.)

And the expansion of 3W Primaris. Which did exist before - but with eradicators and bladeguard I think it could be more prevalent. Which potentially sort of messes with 2 damage weapons.

I think a lot of armies could do with some (or more) flat 3 damage weapons.

Tyel wrote:
The bigger issue is going to be crazy returns on MMs compared with every other anti-tank in the game (and that could especially hurt certain Xenos armies who fall back on D6 damage one shot guns - at least before a change.)

Still a lot of cases where the longer range, stronger, cheaper lascannon will be preferable, it's just not a clear cut anymore.

Give what can and cannot take it it'll be interesting to see if it tempts more attack bikes, dreads, speerders, landraiders and so on back to the table. Been seeing the blight crawler mentioned a few times as well.

Icegoat wrote:
Serious question no hyperbole just straight how is an 8th edition codex using tyranid or eldar or dark eldar or tau player meant to win against marine armies now. Gw seem to place an additional wound at only 20% of a models point value so your now facing a marine army that just doubled its entire wound value. And it only cost the marine player 20%of their points? How do you win? Please tell me.

If First Born max specials/heavy - they're susceptible to blast and some morale.
If First Born load up on power weapons they're leaning into melee and will have fewer models.

e.g. VV will likely be 19 to 20 points now. Assault Intercessors have the same attacks @ 17 and obsec. VV can otherwise load up on power weapons, but then you're seeing fewer attacks and more expensive models.

Have D2 blast weapons. Have fast melee units that can counter charge or cheap obsec garbage to tie them up..

I'm still slightly taken aback by people freaking out about Multi Meltas being changed just so they aren't complete dogpoop any more.

Icegoat, for your own good, take a break. You've been making these alarmist posts that are clearly emotion driven and spontaneous.

Making marine 2w changes to how you have to play since you already had to skew your lists for primaris and no one was bringing oldmarines.

Eldar: starcannons, falcons, hornets and wraithblades with axes can all deal with primaris.
Drukhari: disintegrators still are marine killers and now you don't "waste" their dmage 2 on oldmarines anymore.
Harlequins : Kisses kill marines on every failed saves.
Tau : Riptides still deal 2 damage and kill marines.
Necrons : we already nkow their weapons are being reworked, the spear dudes now have a flat 2 damage and honestly im really not familiar with this army.
Orks : Lootas still kill marines.
Tyranids/GSC : dont know the army enough, i guess hive guards and the exocrine/tyrannofex can pop 2wounds marines.

These are all units that are already being played because of primaris, you barely have to change what youre doing.

Thousands of people own thousands of points worth of old marines who just became the most overpowered horde army in warhammer history. Entire armies are going to be obliterated in one turn. This paradigm shift is going to create a black hole of despair come October to every non marine player in 40k.

by purchasing armies of primaris space marines, obviously

Icegoat wrote:
Thousands of people own thousands of points worth of old marines who just became the most overpowered horde army in warhammer history. Entire armies are going to be obliterated in one turn. This paradigm shift is going to create a black hole of despair come October to every non marine player in 40k.

points are going up, stop freaking out before even seeing the full codex.

Tacticals being 18pts doesn't make them a horde army and them going to 2W doesnt mean they'll table you any faster than they already do. Even the new weapons stats are mostly buffing unused weapons that are available to non marines armies anyway (Heavy bolters, meltas)

Seriously, take a chill pill.

A.T. wrote:

Icegoat wrote:
Serious question no hyperbole just straight how is an 8th edition codex using tyranid or eldar or dark eldar or tau player meant to win against marine armies now.

How did you compete against primaris before?

post Marine 2.0 the answer appears to have been "you didn't".

 Irkjoe wrote:
Well ideally you would outplay your opponent, unless you're saying 40k isn't about that and is only a matter of math in which case you should buy a better army.

Sure a good player with a mediocre army beats a bad player with a good army, atleast some of the time.
But what if both are equally skilled and one has a good army and the other has a bad army?

"Just outplay them" isn't a tactic unless your the greatest player in history.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Even the new weapons stats are mostly buffing unused weapons that are available to non marines armies anyway (Heavy bolters, meltas)

Seriously, take a chill pill.

None marine, Imperial armies.

Xeno just get fethed until they get a codex. I wonder why they might be complaining about marine/Imperial buffs when they still haven't recovered from the Marine 2.0 codex stomping all over them.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Icegoat, for your own good, take a break. You've been making these alarmist posts that are clearly emotion driven and spontaneous.

Making marine 2w changes to how you have to play since you already had to skew your lists for primaris and no one was bringing oldmarines.

Eldar: starcannons, falcons, hornets and wraithblades with axes can all deal with primaris.
Drukhari: disintegrators still are marine killers and now you don't "waste" their dmage 2 on oldmarines anymore.
Harlequins : Kisses kill marines on every failed saves.
Tau : Riptides still deal 2 damage and kill marines.
Necrons : we already nkow their weapons are being reworked, the spear dudes now have a flat 2 damage and honestly im really not familiar with this army.
Orks : Lootas still kill marines.
Tyranids/GSC : dont know the army enough, i guess hive guards and the exocrine/tyrannofex can pop 2wounds marines.

These are all units that are already being played because of primaris, you barely have to change what youre doing.

Its not just the fact that Old Marines gained 2w and terminators got 3, its the fact that the weapons also became much more powerful while at the same time everyone's armies just got significantly more expensive. In my specific case, my tournament ork army just went up over 400pts. So how players dealt with Primaris isn't going to work because an 8th edition Primaris Intercessor was 17pts, a new Tac Marine is almost as good and possibly better and is 18pts, but here is the kicker, Every unit you used to use to kill those 17pt Intercessors is now MORE expensive than ever. As an example, my Lootas which i used to kill primaris just went up in price but even worse the Grot shields they used to survive for longer than 1 turn just went up 66% as well so the price of a loota went up 3pts and a grot went up 2. So now it costs me 5pts (about 30%) more per Loota to kill the same amount of points of enemy marines.

Of course all of this is irrelevant if GW surprises us and puts out an index similar to what they did in 8th which addresses a lot of these concerns but as of right now who knows.

Icegoat wrote:
Thousands of people own thousands of points worth of old marines who just became the most overpowered horde army in warhammer history. Entire armies are going to be obliterated in one turn. This paradigm shift is going to create a black hole of despair come October to every non marine player in 40k.

Bloody hell, it's a game designed predominantly for adults with toy soldiers.....

Get a grip. Get some new hobbies, the curve will swing back around at some point and marines will be trash. Eldar were OP for the best part of a decade at some point.

Your livelihood is not on the line, this is just a game....

 Nazrak wrote:
I'm still slightly taken aback by people freaking out about Multi Meltas being changed just so they aren't complete dogpoop any more.

Now they do make lascannons pretty irrelevant though unless become lot more expensive. S9 ain't as good as twice the shots, extra AP and with the new board sizes range is pretty much irrelevant as well. And then there's the melta bonus.

Unless multi melta almost doubles in cost little reason to take lascannons

It's just a little weird they reduced the board size now, otherwise lascannons would still have their place based on range.

We need to wait for points anyway.

They said they were reducing model count, marine armies could be significantly smaller when upgraded with weapons.

Symbiostorm + Exocrines, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, shooty Warriors

Tyrants and Fexes can do ok job as well, as well as Acid Tyrannofex.

Having access to +1D to all shots from a monster, double shooting, double fighting and double moving stratagems is a decent toolset on its own.

Nids also get many movement shenanigans to block the enemy and play the objectives, including 1-2 potential ways to move/advance a unit in the enemy's turn and steal the objective before the next command phase.

It's not going to be pretty, the stat disparity is horrible and it's only about to get worse. But the 9th is less about killing and more about objectives and Nids (and GSC too, in fact) have tools for that.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Bloody hell, it's a game designed predominantly for adults with toy soldiers.....

Get a grip. Get some new hobbies, the curve will swing back around at some point and marines will be trash. Eldar were OP for the best part of a decade at some point.

Your livelihood is not on the line, this is just a game....

I have played since 3rd...I can not remember a single edition where space marines were "trash" tier.

As far as this game and calming down..im not freaking out, i just would like a bit more balance in a game ive spent a lot of time and money on. But if GW wants me to wait until my codex to have a chance at playing a fair game, so be it, thats why I have fishing and shooting as a fall back

 Ordana wrote:

A.T. wrote:

Icegoat wrote:
Serious question no hyperbole just straight how is an 8th edition codex using tyranid or eldar or dark eldar or tau player meant to win against marine armies now.

How did you compete against primaris before?

post Marine 2.0 the answer appears to have been "you didn't".

 Irkjoe wrote:
Well ideally you would outplay your opponent, unless you're saying 40k isn't about that and is only a matter of math in which case you should buy a better army.

Sure a good player with a mediocre army beats a bad player with a good army, atleast some of the time.
But what if both are equally skilled and one has a good army and the other has a bad army?

"Just outplay them" isn't a tactic unless your the greatest player in history.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Even the new weapons stats are mostly buffing unused weapons that are available to non marines armies anyway (Heavy bolters, meltas)

Seriously, take a chill pill.

None marine, Imperial armies.

Xeno just get fethed until they get a codex. I wonder why they might be complaining about marine/Imperial buffs when they still haven't recovered from the Marine 2.0 codex stomping all over them.

And being a better player means what? What impactful decisions are made on the table besides target priority? Not positioning when everything can threaten most of the table. I said that outplaying was the ideal, but 40k isn't about that. The point was that if you prioritize winning then you'll have to play what wins, if gw decides that isn't xenos then too bad.

So translation, according to you 40k is completely based on Pay to win and tactics and strategy is borderline meaningless. That is an interesting way to look at it.

I would say that your 2 primary decisions are yes, target priority and positioning.

The more terrain on the table, the more important positioning is. As you decrease the amount of line-of-sight blocking terrain, the balance shifts further and further towards target priority and units' raw efficiency for killing/surviving being killed.

SemperMortis wrote:
So translation, according to you 40k is completely based on Pay to win and tactics and strategy is borderline meaningless. That is an interesting way to look at it.

It is and it isn't. Skill matters if both players are playing armies in the same tier, but there are matchups that no amount of skill can overcome.

 Nazrak wrote:
I'm still slightly taken aback by people freaking out about Multi Meltas being changed just so they aren't complete dogpoop any more.

I think there's a case to be made that they went overboard. MM's needed help, absolutely. Tripling the average damage output however may have been...a wee bit much. Two BS3+ MM's now in optimal range will kill almost any T7 3+ vehicle in one round of shooting, delivering 12 wounds with average rolls with the new Heavy 2 "2d6-pick-highest+2" Damage profile.

By any meaningful comparison, pretty much. 40k isn't a crunchy rule set, there aren't that many mechanics, and everything can do whatever it wants(move,shoot,assault) all of the time with little restriction. On top of that the points and stats are imbalanced. It's a cinematic spectacle with miniatures not a strategy game and people want to buy armies that point click win.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I'm still slightly taken aback by people freaking out about Multi Meltas being changed just so they aren't complete dogshit any more.

I think there's a case to be made that they went overboard. MM's needed help, absolutely. Tripling the average damage output however may have been...a wee bit much. Two BS3+ MM's now in optimal range will kill almost any T7 3+ vehicle in one round of shooting, delivering 12 wounds with average rolls with the new Heavy 2 "2d6-pick-highest+2" Damage profile.

Where are you getting "2d6-pick-highest+2"? Last I checked the leaked statline had a damage of 1d6 and the half-range bonus was +2 instead of roll twice and pick highest, your average per multi-melta at optimal range without rerolls is about 4 wounds to T7/3+ (2/3*2/3*5/6*5.5*2 = 220/54). (5.5 with Captain/Lieutenant, in case anyone's curious)

(The result goes down to an average of 3.3 wounds per multi-melta before rerolls against Wave Serpents and a hilarious 0.8 wounds per multi-melta against quantum-shielded Necrons, while we're talking about xenos competing.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I'm still slightly taken aback by people freaking out about Multi Meltas being changed just so they aren't complete dogshit any more.

I think there's a case to be made that they went overboard. MM's needed help, absolutely. Tripling the average damage output however may have been...a wee bit much. Two BS3+ MM's now in optimal range will kill almost any T7 3+ vehicle in one round of shooting, delivering 12 wounds with average rolls with the new Heavy 2 "2d6-pick-highest+2" Damage profile.

Where are you getting "2d6-pick-highest+2"? Last I checked the leaked statline had a damage of 1d6 and the half-range bonus was +2 instead of roll twice and pick highest, your average per multi-melta at optimal range without rerolls is about 4 wounds to T7/3+ (2/3*2/3*5/6*5.5*2 = 220/54). (5.5 with Captain/Lieutenant, in case anyone's curious)

Ah ok, seems I missed that they dropped the "pick highest". Still works out to a 2.5x damage bonus and an average of 10 wounds inflicted in my previous example case. A bit better, but still probably overboard.