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I do enjoy a bit of the Mythos and so finding this a intriuging watch

Anyone else watching?

Big change of pace in first episode but nice touch re the books - both Lovecraft and his contempories.

I have been.

First episode-. Pretty good (though as a minor the rural bus intro/ sudden transition to Chicago confused me- I thought they were heading into 'Lovecraft country' then).

Certain elements were a bit too heavy handed, and the characters too knowledgeable for a standard Mythos story.

I really want to see the characters confused and over their heads, not... fairly calmly accepting every horrible thing.

---
Episode 2.
They address the calm after the fact (but don't at all address their relative calm during the events)

The pacing on this show is aggravating. And whoever picked the (almost) completely anachronistic soundtrack for this episode seriously hacked me off.
A lot of what was introduced in episode 2 could have been interesting, but so much seems lost in the rush.

I really don't like that the protagonists were right about everything (even their completely blind guesses and assumptions), and just accepted the supernatural elements without much of an issue.

It felt a lot weaker than the first episode, partly because all the groundwork doesn't seem to go anywhere.

Also, as a Mythos story, I feel like its

The end needed... something. Confused on what the cause was, because I was somewhat distracted, but it seemed like he just thought of

Yeah just watched the 2nd episode and it was was...wierd but not in a good way.

I had thought - oh this looks interesting but then it really wasn;t as you said it was not wierd enough in terms of the mythos element - although I am glad it did not become a

The Braithwaite daughter is apparently main cast so I assume more to come - i had assumed that William was her brother but I guess not.

Still be catching the next one.

I've thought this is pretty good so far. I don't have a lot of knowledge about the Lovecraftian mythos really; played Arkham Horror a few times but that was it.

One of the things that struck me were how good the production values were - more on part with a film than a TV series. Even for HBO, it's visually very impressive.

i had assumed that William was her brother but I guess not.

I figured he was her lover. I hadn't (and still haven't) decided if he is also her brother. HBO seems to like the incest.

Still be catching the next one.

Yeah, I likely will as well. I want to see what they latch onto. They're avoiding some mythos cliches, but they also seem to be pre-emptively burning bridges for more typical story-telling as well.

Trying to work out the story (and why they're telling it) is keeping me interested enough. At least for now.

They biggest problem with the show is it gave no hint it was actually an anthology.
So unless you read the book, you would be confused as to why what seemed to be an entire season worth of mysteries, was solved in like, one episode.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
They biggest problem with the show is it gave no hint it was actually an anthology.
So unless you read the book, you would be confused as to why what seemed to be an entire season worth of mysteries, was solved in like, one episode.

Oh damn, didn't know that either and was holding out with watching since I wanted to wait for at least a few episodes in

Love me some Lovecraft, but I’ve noticed a lot of adaptations go for some kind of variant of Shadow over Innsmouth/Call of Cthulhu. How do they handle the mythos parts? Do they “imply” the horrors to leave it to the audience’s imagination, or do they go full-on Squidward with the Old Ones?

And Peele?!? The comedy guy? Not gonna say a guy who does comedy can’t do serious stuff, but that was the last name I expected to try and adapt Lovecraft.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
They biggest problem with the show is it gave no hint it was actually an anthology.
So unless you read the book, you would be confused as to why what seemed to be an entire season worth of mysteries, was solved in like, one episode.

If a show needs to be explained in this manner - then its not adapting it for TV correctly IMO

 SkavenLord wrote:

And Peele?!? The comedy guy? Not gonna say a guy who does comedy can’t do serious stuff, but that was the last name I expected to try and adapt Lovecraft.

Then you haven't been paying attention. He's been in charge of the reboot of "The Twilight Zone" for the past few years. He also did the films "Get Out" and "Us".

 SkavenLord wrote:


And Peele?!? The comedy guy? Not gonna say a guy who does comedy can’t do serious stuff, but that was the last name I expected to try and adapt Lovecraft.

He has done at least three other well received Horror movies and was involved with the Twilight Zone reboot. He knows the genre very well.

Well, I think the second episode was a little "rushed" but the title of it really most likely informs what we should take away from it.

In other words, we shouldn't be dwelling on the nonsensical part of there being monsters, or magic, or any of that. The real "point" lays further (or deeper) into what comes of the unfolding events, probably.

Statistx wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
They biggest problem with the show is it gave no hint it was actually an anthology.
So unless you read the book, you would be confused as to why what seemed to be an entire season worth of mysteries, was solved in like, one episode.

Oh damn, didn't know that either and was holding out with watching since I wanted to wait for at least a few episodes in

Yup, the book is several stories that are seperate, but connected with a thin thread.
I have not read it, but I looked up the book on Wiki and found this out after episode 2.

Ouze wrote:I've thought this is pretty good so far. I don't have a lot of knowledge about the Lovecraftian mythos really; played Arkham Horror a few times but that was it.

You won't need much.

Lovecraft Country runs more on the motifs of Lovecraft rather than the mythos itself. Secret cults. Family legacies. Forbidden magics. Monsters. A lot of it is juxtaposed against Jim Crow. With it's secret cults (KKK) and family legacies (Your a black man in America Atticus!) and forbidden magics (lynching mobs) and monsters (racists). It's never really outright horror so much as a dark thriller, playing Lovecraft's themes with a realistic bent. People looking for something like The Void aren't going to find it in Lovecraft Country. Lovecraft Country is more pulpy and follows the lines of some of Lovecraft's more pulpy (and more obviously racist) works like Red Hook, Charles Dexter Ward, and Arthur Jermyn.

The whole point is kind of to cast the Lovecraftian horror elements as a bit of a dark joke from the perspective of black people in America. Oh, there's Shoggoth's running around? Well I'll worry about that after the Sheriff stops pointing his gun at me for driving black in America. That sort of thing.

hotsauceman1 wrote:They biggest problem with the show is it gave no hint it was actually an anthology.
So unless you read the book, you would be confused as to why what seemed to be an entire season worth of mysteries, was solved in like, one episode.

I wouldn't call the book an anthology. I'd call it semi-episodic. It appears as an anthology at first, but that's only because it takes awhile for all the strings and common plot threads to come together. Though I admit I'd forgotten about this until after seeing the preview for episode 3. Turns out I didn't find the book quite that memorable XD

Mr Morden wrote:If a show needs to be explained in this manner - then its not adapting it for TV correctly IMO

I would agree with this. I found episode 2 to be a real let down after episode 1. I wish they'd spent one more episode on that, just to built the plot better and set up the plot threads they needed for leader. As it is, they skipped over a few that I now worry will come out of left field and be total WTF later. This is a book that really could have used a little adjusting to screen and the adjustments they made don't make much sense with what I remember.

 LordofHats wrote:

Ouze wrote:I've thought this is pretty good so far. I don't have a lot of knowledge about the Lovecraftian mythos really; played Arkham Horror a few times but that was it.

You won't need much.

Lovecraft Country runs more on the motifs of Lovecraft rather than the mythos itself. Secret cults. Family legacies. Forbidden magics. Monsters. A lot of it is juxtaposed against Jim Crow. With it's secret cults (KKK) and family legacies (Your a black man in America Atticus!) and forbidden magics (lynching mobs) and monsters (racists). It's never really outright horror so much as a dark thriller, playing Lovecraft's themes with a realistic bent. People looking for something like The Void aren't going to find it in Lovecraft Country. Lovecraft Country is more pulpy and follows the lines of some of Lovecraft's more pulpy (and more obviously racist) works like Red Hook, Charles Dexter Ward, and Arthur Jermyn.

The whole point is kind of to cast the Lovecraftian horror elements as a bit of a dark joke from the perspective of black people in America. Oh, there's Shoggoth's running around? Well I'll worry about that after the Sheriff stops pointing his gun at me for driving black in America. That sort of thing.

I think that explains a lot. We watched the first episode and thought we'd give the second a try but if this is the theme and direction the show is going we'll pass.
I much prefer the cosmic horror, I enjoyed The Void quite a lot.
Oh well. We're probably not the target audience for this show it would seem.

and forbidden magics (lynching mobs) and monsters (racists). It's never really outright horror so much as a dark thriller, playing Lovecraft's themes with a realistic bent.

If they were going for that, they really screwed up.

Episode 2 was going really hard for horror at times, but wizzed past it for even more fantastic elements. 'Realistic bent' wasn't on the agenda.

I'm not sure how forbidden magic can stand for lynch mobs when they're using lots of both so casually and overtly. And

Voss wrote:

If they were going for that, they really screwed up.

They really skipped over some stuff. There were some background details they didn't cover. They didn't remotely explain the significance of 'ritual', which is the thematic line that connects cross burning and arcane rites. A viewer can probably discern from the context of Ep.2 that magical ability is inherited but the Sons of Adam arbitrarily view it through the lens of sex and race, but I feel it was understated for how much of a role it plays in events.

I don't mean realistic in the sense that things aren't supernatural. I mean realistic in that the romance is largely stripped away and the supernatural is slotted into place as something that exists and is subject to all the biases and failings typical of human perception.

 LordofHats wrote:

Voss wrote:

If they were going for that, they really screwed up.

They really skipped over some stuff. There were some background details they didn't cover. They didn't remotely explain the significance of 'ritual', which is the thematic line that connects cross burning and arcane rites. A viewer can probably discern from the context of Ep.2 that magical ability is inherited but the Sons of Adam arbitrarily view it through the lens of sex and race, but I feel it was understated for how much of a role it plays in events.

I don't mean realistic in the sense that things aren't supernatural. I mean realistic in that the romance is largely stripped away and the supernatural is slotted into place as something that exists and is subject to all the biases and failings typical of human perception.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last bit- most of the magic used just does whatever its users want, without fail or bias. Stop people from leaving, it does that. Stop a lynch mob, it does that.

I definitely didn't get any sense that magical ability was inherited- it seemed ubiquitous, trivial and common-place (at least among the cult, or other people 'in the know'), with at least nine magical effects going on simultaneously (three barriers, three scrying gates, three personalized mind jobs, which imply even more magic about how the cult knew all the things they did, down to dress sizes and favorite books). Which makes the idea of any thematic tie between cross burning and arcane rites confusing. Restoring memory, raising ward barriers, making monsters, etc. don't seem to require any rites at all, or even effort. They just happen instantly upon willing it, agreement, or transmission (in the case of monsters)

The big ritual was dependent on heredity, but more as a component, rather than magical ability. It gave value to the sacrifice, like a rib or liver (but on a larger scale).

Voss wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by that last bit- most of the magic used just does whatever its users want, without fail or bias. Stop people from leaving, it does that. Stop a lynch mob, it does that.

Take it less literally.

What is a cross burning? It is a ritual. An act carried out by a group against a target both to instill fear and to enforce the group's vision of the community. It allows a small group to control the broader community through a single act based in symbolism. It is 'magic'. Certainly it's as potentially deadly to a Black American in Jim Crow as any curse from a book clad in human flesh. Suppose we'll see if they botch that in the next episode or two?

I definitely didn't get any sense that magical ability was inherited

Yeah, they totally botched it. Atticus is a direct descendant of a powerful sorcerer. That's why he's 'useful' as generic evil patriarch put it, but notice how he also calls Atticus tainted. The view of Atticus as 'material' is just veiled racism and a very unsubtle reference to slavery (black people as a resource rather than as people).

I don't disagree with any of your criticisms of the show, mind. The context to understand the events is in the book. I have no idea why they didn't bother explaining it and seemed to feel the need to rush through the plot line that frames the rest of the story. I'm skeptical of the next few episodes because they didn't even mention a pivotal character. They just briefly showed their name on screen, as if anyone will remember in two weeks when they pop out of the blue and will seem like a massive contrivance because the foreshadowing was skipped.

The problem with taking it less literally is the show doesn't- there aren't any functioning metaphors here, everything is simply true and in your face about it.

There is no cross-burning to juxtapose or compare, just functioning magic. 'Atticus as material is veiled racism' doesn't work because all the racism in the show is _very_ overt (to the point of the absurd with the car chase murder attempt- the sheriff later does basically the same thing in a much more believable and sinister way), and the ritual literally uses him as a material basis. There isn't any contrast or subtlety to provide subtext- its all spoken text which actually undermines the idea that race really matters to the racists.

They'll say blacks aren't allowed and he's tainted, but he's still the fulcrum of the all-important ritual. Its a weirdly twisted 'have your cake and eat it' situation. Especially since they apparently spent time and effort to get him there just for that.

Voss wrote:
They'll say blacks aren't allowed and he's tainted, but he's still the fulcrum of the all-important ritual. Its a weirdly twisted 'have your cake and eat it' situation. Especially since they apparently spent time and effort to get him there just for that.

'Have your cake and eat it' is a great metaphor for racism in general. It's always an exercise in circular logic and self-justification. The US Constitution even enshrined 'have your cake and eat it' in the 3/5 Compromise. Slaves 'weren't people', but they still counted for a state's representation in Congress even though those slaves were not represented in any way beyond their ability to float the voting power of southern Whites who insisted they weren't people and thus didn't need representation.

The depiction of a young black man as a resource only useful for what he can give to an old powerful white guy - with no sense of concern that he is himself descended from a white man and has power of his own which is a double whammy - is an extremely straightforward metaphor, and probably the only one they didn't butcher. They even did a maybe it'll be clever at some point move by gender-flipping one of the book's characters into a girl to throw in the 'the old powerful white guy is also a sexist douche' card.

I guess I'm not really clear on what we're talking about, though? The show is butchering the metaphors. I'm not saying the show is doing a good job of it. I'm mostly lamenting that it feels like it shouldn't be so hard to translate core plot elements for such simple metaphors onto screen.

The wife and I are enjoying it. While I expected what happened in episode 2 somewhat I did expect it to take an episode or two more. Dig a bit more into the substance and world build.

I like it. I didn't think anything was to over the top or out of left field. But I don't know the source material. I think they are doing a solid job of making a beautiful, well acted, and interesting show.

That said I think the "characters are to calm" opinion is a bit off. Let's look at the group. The uncle is a man that travels the country to find safe methods and locations for black people to travel. And he's been doing it for years. His first reaction to anything is going be calm and considered or he'd already be dead by now. The lead just got back from a pretty brutal war depending on where he served in Korea so again his reaction fits as well. Down to being overly aggressive in most situations. Even the "singer" fits if a little less cleanly and she's the one that reacts worst of the three. I found it pretty consistent. And the two who seem calm about magic and monsters are also people who seem like they might have already believed in that stuff and this is just confirmation.

 LordofHats wrote:
The depiction of a young black man as a resource only useful for what he can give to an old powerful white guy - with no sense of concern that he is himself descended from a white man and has power of his own which is a double whammy - is an extremely straightforward metaphor, and probably the only one they didn't butcher. They even did a maybe it'll be clever at some point move by gender-flipping one of the book's characters into a girl to throw in the 'the old powerful white guy is also a sexist douche' card.

Well, by titling the episode and having the Gil Scott-Heron song play over the ritual, I thought the implication there came through fairly clearly, that while "Whitey" (the head sorcerer guy, in this case) have something like aspirations for wild things like summoning the Garden of Eden (read:going to the moon) it is a daily existential struggle for black folks just to not get killed doing perfectly ordinary things, like drive down a road, be somewhere when the sun sets, just existing (in Tic's case) and so on. Frankly, it sort of "read" to me as a very Eyes Wide Shut sort of moment, which I won't really qualify too much, but the "end" there re-frames the whole sequence of events, seemingly.

But, I will admit, I did find the pacing of the whole show so far to be a little off-putting though. Also, I have not read the book.

 LordofHats wrote:

Voss wrote:
They'll say blacks aren't allowed and he's tainted, but he's still the fulcrum of the all-important ritual. Its a weirdly twisted 'have your cake and eat it' situation. Especially since they apparently spent time and effort to get him there just for that.

'Have your cake and eat it' is a great metaphor for racism in general. It's always an exercise in circular logic and self-justification. The US Constitution even enshrined 'have your cake and eat it' in the 3/5 Compromise. Slaves 'weren't people', but they still counted for a state's representation in Congress even though those slaves were not represented in any way beyond their ability to float the voting power of southern Whites who insisted they weren't people and thus didn't need representation.

The depiction of a young black man as a resource only useful for what he can give to an old powerful white guy - with no sense of concern that he is himself descended from a white man and has power of his own which is a double whammy - is an extremely straightforward metaphor, and probably the only one they didn't butcher. They even did a maybe it'll be clever at some point move by gender-flipping one of the book's characters into a girl to throw in the 'the old powerful white guy is also a sexist douche' card.

I guess I'm not really clear on what we're talking about, though? The show is butchering the metaphors. I'm not saying the show is doing a good job of it. I'm mostly lamenting that it feels like it shouldn't be so hard to translate core plot elements for such simple metaphors onto screen.

I think we're largely in agreement on the 'not doing a good job' part, its just I think the show isn't butchering metaphors. Its not doing metaphors _at all_.
It has open kill squads racing down main street in the middle of the day wildly shooting at other vehicles (imagine how that would look to someone inside a house or business without access to a script).
Psychological trauma is just added or removed with a click of the fingers. Same with caging or releasing people.
The characters instantly recognize and correctly analyze replications of the Count of Monte Cristo and Dracula in tense situations

The only potentially metaphorical part is the final ritual, and I've no idea where they were trying to go with it.

None of these are metaphors, but any or all of them (or more) can play into the ending presented


----

 Hulksmash wrote:

That said I think the "characters are to calm" opinion is a bit off. Let's look at the group. The uncle is a man that travels the country to find safe methods and locations for black people to travel. And he's been doing it for years. His first reaction to anything is going be calm and considered or he'd already be dead by now. The lead just got back from a pretty brutal war depending on where he served in Korea so again his reaction fits as well. Down to being overly aggressive in most situations. Even the "singer" fits if a little less cleanly and she's the one that reacts worst of the three. I found it pretty consistent. And the two who seem calm about magic and monsters are also people who seem like they might have already believed in that stuff and this is just confirmation.

They didn't believe. They knew for a fact it was fiction, to the point that they were zeroing in on the salient points raised in the 'Lovecraft's Contradiction' thread here in this forum, because they're a well-known problem with the material. Going 180 and accepting it all as fact is very bizarre.

The 'singer' doesn't react worst by any stretch.
'Calm and considered' is fine for trying to defuse a hostile waiter or hotel clerk.

And then they all calmly walk up to the mansion that they couldn't find any evidence of the day before, still covered in blood, like nothing happened.

Voss wrote:

I think we're largely in agreement on the 'not doing a good job' part, its just I think the show isn't butchering metaphors. Its not doing metaphors _at all_.

That's fair.

Voss wrote:
The only potentially metaphorical part is the final ritual, and I've no idea where they were trying to go with it.

Spoiler:

Did it fail because:
Atticus' maternal ancestry overpower the cult wizard ancestry?
He doesn't have any cult wizard ancestry? (The cult was just wrong)
The cult wizard's ancestry isn't what he thinks it is?
The 'Garden of Eden' didn't exist?'
It does exist, but God thinks the Cult is a bunch of pricks who don't deserve nice things?
Something else was wrong with the replica house that carried over to the ritual?
Daughter or not-the-butler messed with things?
Did cult wizard spend too much wizard power on scrying portals, barriers, memory shenanigans and so on, and was tired the next morning? [This seems unlikely just because it would rely on the protagonist's actions having an actual effect, something the show so far has been studiously avoiding]

None of these are metaphors, but any or all of them (or more) can play into the ending presented

Well, I think I would present a different "plausible" (to me) interpretation.
But like I said, I haven't read the book or anything, so maybe I am way off base.

I wouldn't mind a show about lovecraftian horrors, or a show about issues with racism and such in past times and a mix of both is also interesting, but I would have prefered if it was more with a roadtrip adventure pace like in the first episode, instead of now being stuck in the location of the second.

How is this show compared to Peele's other offering The Twilight Zone?

I really enjoyed Get Out, but ran out of steam with TTZ. Thought the episode on the airliner wasn't bad but didn't find any of the following episodes grabbed me in the same way.

 SkavenLord wrote:
Love me some Lovecraft, but I’ve noticed a lot of adaptations go for some kind of variant of Shadow over Innsmouth/Call of Cthulhu. How do they handle the mythos parts? Do they “imply” the horrors to leave it to the audience’s imagination, or do they go full-on Squidward with the Old Ones?

And Peele?!? The comedy guy? Not gonna say a guy who does comedy can’t do serious stuff, but that was the last name I expected to try and adapt Lovecraft.

1) as others noted Peele has been in the horror game for a long time now.

2) Comedians tend to make the transition to drama and serious work very easily. It's because their whole shtick is understanding timing and emotion. Drama actors on the other hand tend to have a horrible time transitioning to comedy.

My review in brief: Lovecraft Country? More like Derleth Country!

I liked pretty much everything except the horror elements. I thought the main cast is very good. The strained family dynamics between Tic and his father and Letitia and her brother and sister were very realistic. The community block party scene was a lot of fun. The depiction of racism at the time was well-done (although I agree that from a story-telling standpoint, two car-chases in one episode was an odd choice). The sound track was excellent. I really like the use of non-standard or vocal elements in soundtracks. The driving montage over James Baldwin was really interesting. I loved Whitey on the Moon playing during the ceremony.

The reason I feel let down is that I thought this was a really interesting way to explore our relationship to these foundational stories and their creators. I love pulp fiction but I also hate racism. And I've never been fully satisfied with saying "those were the times." My favorite part of the opener was when Tic is helping the woman with her bags and they talk about John Carter. I was hoping for more of those sorts of conversations. So I was disappointed with the second episode, which took a hard right-turn into magic schlock. I suppose I should have been warned when Jackie Robinson exploded Cthulhu in the dream sequence. If you show a giant CGI Cthulhu in the first five minutes of the show, then you've done Derlethed yerself in the foot there.

I'll watch the next episode but I'm not really interested in more Derlethism. I don't see how the show can build on terror and suspense when the first two episodes were cranked up to 11. And I worry that the dialogue between racism and horror will get sidelined for more action/magic schlock.

Bit of an aside, but this is a good example of one of my strongly-held beliefs: the best Lovecraftian fiction does not reference the source material in any way, but instead uses a curated selection of themes as a scaffold to build a character-driven story.