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It got me thinking: what is the most efficient unit, point for point, at killing T4 3+sv 2W marines? In one phase, in a vacuum of no extra rules, simply what is on the datasheet.
This is obviously a very mathhammer question, and has little to no bearing on an actual game because of the lack of any external factors.
If it were still pointed as it was in 8th, I would've said dissie ravagers. They on average do 3.33 unsaved wounds, or 6.67 damage and 3 dead models. But now 3 dead models for 160 points I'm sure it's outclassed by lots of things.
Perhaps bladeguard in combat? They kill ~5 models for 105 points.
And then as an extra what unit would be the 'best' with all the extras of chapters, doctrines, stratagems, auras, rerolls etc? Obviously it's harder to maths this one out, but a fun thought
Marines will certainly have the tools to fight Marines but I bet there are gonna be some armies that catch us by suprise with their ability to efficanctly kill Marines.Maybe Guard?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/09/02 01:35:19
Subject: Re:The most efficient way to kill marines.
In my army warp talons with Prey On The Weak were pretty efficient at shredding primaris before gw got silly with their points cost, now, not so much.
Right now for gravis, I'd say my best bet is my double chainclaw Contemptor. 6 S14, AP-4, D4 attacks hitting on 2s on the charge equals 4 dead at 151 PPM with combi- bolters. Unless the Loyalist Scum player decides to make them magically T14 for 2CP. God, I hate that strategem.
I get 19.4 wounds from a 5-man Grav Cannon Devastator squad with Cherub in Devastator Doctrine at supposedly 135 points.(18×5)+(10×4)+5. Thats before Strats and rerolls. Currently the squad is 150 points, giving 7.5 points per wound dealt. Theres slop with the D3 damage that'll skew the result though.
Add a Combi Plas on the sarge for another 1.83w
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 01:57:35
Insectum7 wrote: I get 19.4 wounds from a 5-man Grav Cannon Devastator squad with Cherub in Devastator Doctrine at supposedly 135 points.(18×5)+(10×4)+5. Thats before Strats and rerolls. Currently the squad is 150 points.
Insectum7 wrote: I get 19.4 wounds from a 5-man Grav Cannon Devastator squad with Cherub in Devastator Doctrine at supposedly 135 points.(18×5)+(10×4)+5. Thats before Strats and rerolls. Currently the squad is 150 points.
Insectum7 wrote: I get 19.4 wounds from a 5-man Grav Cannon Devastator squad with Cherub in Devastator Doctrine at supposedly 135 points.(18×5)+(10×4)+5. Thats before Strats and rerolls. Currently the squad is 150 points.
Hmmm. 6 combi-plasma/plasma Chosen, rapid fire on overcharge with Prey On The Weak:
12 shots hitting on 2s: 10 hits, wounding on 2s: 8 wounds, 6 unsaved= 6 dead Loyalist Dogs. Current unit price 150. Not sure about the price when they get 2W, probably 18-20 PPM.
Insectum7 wrote: I get 19.4 wounds from a 5-man Grav Cannon Devastator squad with Cherub in Devastator Doctrine at supposedly 135 points.(18×5)+(10×4)+5. Thats before Strats and rerolls. Currently the squad is 150 points.
Insectum7 wrote: I get 19.4 wounds from a 5-man Grav Cannon Devastator squad with Cherub in Devastator Doctrine at supposedly 135 points.(18×5)+(10×4)+5. Thats before Strats and rerolls. Currently the squad is 150 points.
Insectum7 wrote: I get 19.4 wounds from a 5-man Grav Cannon Devastator squad with Cherub in Devastator Doctrine at supposedly 135 points.(18×5)+(10×4)+5. Thats before Strats and rerolls. Currently the squad is 150 points.
Insectum7 wrote: I get 19.4 wounds from a 5-man Grav Cannon Devastator squad with Cherub in Devastator Doctrine at supposedly 135 points.(18×5)+(10×4)+5. Thats before Strats and rerolls. Currently the squad is 150 points.
Yeah I'm a bit sloppy with it because mostly I'm just doing basic comparisons between potentials, plus I also shoot them at 3+ wound models. I just drop damage from the math against 1w targets.
Consider it an average between your more accurate math and the grav reroll strat outcome, whatever that is.
Before the points updates Flashgits were pretty darn efficient. Especially if you got the freebootas trait off. And if you got lucky and procced the second volley with that 6 then you were laughing all the way to the teef bank.
I still think a full lot of nine vibro cannons are super efficient with expert crafters but mathhammer struggles with them and my maths skills aren't up to the task!
10 Flashgitz with 2 ammo runts clocks in at 330 points including Dakkka Dakka and ammo runt re-rolls you are looking at 8.666667 wounds then damage x 2. So a full squad only kills 8 marines. So there has got to be something more efficient.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/02 05:41:10
russellmoo wrote: 10 Flashgitz with 2 ammo runts clocks in at 330 points including Dakkka Dakka and ammo runt re-rolls you are looking at 8.666667 wounds then damage x 2. So a full squad only kills 8 marines. So there has got to be something more efficient.
I did prefix that with before the points update. Where they were something like 250. Also those numbers go up if you kill something before hand, making them BS3.
10 praetorians with rods(guess who just got himself ones with void casters...) kill 11 primaris marine for 230 pts. Not that bad but getting there is the issue. Void casters btw do 7 primaris. Shooting not factored(you don't neccessarily even WANT to shoot...)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 06:00:37
I don't think mathhammer is 100% accurate, and this assumes one target, but nine vibros give me a total of 23.89 wounds against any primaris profile for 345 points, in 2 damage chunks.
A squad of three shining spears, assuming that they shoot before charging in, do 15 wounds into an intercessor profile, 14.45 into gravis. This assumes that the exarch has a star Lance and I put the salamander reroll on the normal spears shooting and on the exarch melee so it's a bit fudged but pretty good for 110 points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 06:33:24
Insectum7 wrote: I get 19.4 wounds from a 5-man Grav Cannon Devastator squad with Cherub in Devastator Doctrine at supposedly 135 points.(18×5)+(10×4)+5. Thats before Strats and rerolls. Currently the squad is 150 points.
1 BS2+ Grav Cannon, fired twice
8 shots
40/6 or 20/3 hits
40/9 wounds
200/54 or 100/27 failed saves
Total of (120+100)/27=220/27 failed saves, or 8.15 failed saves, for an average of 13.58 damage.
You done goofed on your math, Insectum.
No saves in Devastator Doctrine.
12×0.666×0.666×2+(8×0.83
×0.666×2)= 19.48
Ah, so there's not!
That increases it 16/3+40/9=88/9 or 9.78 failed saves. For 16.30 damage.
You still goofed.
Sorry I don't read fractions but I just showed my math. Where did I goof?
You counted them as D2.
They're Dd3.
Average is 2, and I mentioned that there was slop in the calculation in my original post.
Fair.
But for future reference, Dd3 averages to 5/3 damage against 2 wound models. Since 3 damage is counted as 2.
FNP makes the math weirder, but it does that always.
d3 weapons average 1.83, which is significant because you have a 1/3 of not killing a marine.
With that being said. At 180pts and a ton of support and being iron warriors and slannesh... ... I can get Havocs up to 18.48 dead primaris marines. I don;t think its most efficient way of doing the job, but its extremely effective.
Now GW has thought about their untamed release and re-release of Marines.
Marines with 2 wounds are an issue especially for other factions.
The 9 Marine killer list is a bit laughable say when you think about Necrons as nobody plays Praetorians.
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gaurd. 0. start firing that manticore early and often. Especially the one with the 3 wounds per shot. 1. lambda lions scions do a pretty good job, 585 points of them (a solid battalion with 3 command squads and 3 troop) puts out enough plasma (even assuming you lose a command squad to auspex scan) to kill some 20 to 24 marines in a turn, or roughly, 7 marines per 190 points. If you don't get auspex'd, you will likely kill about 6 more, so 9 per 190 points. Scion-e goodness! 2. Drop 10 base armament scions in close with a flyer, to use both frfsrf and the +1S strat. If you do that once per turn somewhere, you can whack about 7 of the marines with a 90 point unit. It consumes 2 cp. 3. Also, psykers are an efficient marine killing technique, if you can bring some to bear on a squad of them with smites. Some good ones are an astropath with malstrom, or in generic inquisition terms, any inquisitor with a couple casts. 4. Non scion guard units with plasma (specifically 3 command squads worth jumping out of a valkyrie) can do a very similar attack, but its slightly more difficult to get rerolls to them, so their fractionally cheaper cost is offset by the need for cp delivery or a flyer. Any time you put plasma in gaurd hands... 5. A plasma based LRBT with plasma cannons on the sides can shoot a lot of shots of plasma, hit on 3+ / rr1, and wound on 2's. That gives you an average of around 8 hits plasma and that gives you likely 6 to 7 dead marines, ish, for some 225 points.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/09/02 08:04:15
wuestenfux wrote: Now GW has thought about their untamed release and re-release of Marines.
Marines with 2 wounds are an issue especially for other factions.
The 9 Marine killer list is a bit laughable say when you think about Necrons as nobody plays Praetorians.
Nobody played praetorians. with stat and poinbt increases praetorians for example are now tougher than immortals whose damage output meanwhile is becoming more and more irrelevant while praetorians got that all important damage 2(which is now new baselines needed for serious damage output). New scenarios also mean you need melee elements and something to brawl in center also reducing issue of reaching melee(if enemy doesn't get to center field denying charge to praetorians...well you have already got game in bag basically as opponent is giving up on vp's).
Incidentally praetorians have been doing well for me now. Albeit with void casters but been facing and dealing with w1 marines so...it's actually comparable with new rod's vs new w2 marines as same # of attacks and each failed save=dead marine.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 08:17:15
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2020/09/02 09:00:42
Subject: Re:The most efficient way to kill marines.
Smasha gunz outperform flash gitz against marines, especially those T5 3W+ models.
6 models are 240 points for 36 T5 5+ wounds separated into 6 indipendent units, which is helpful to soak more firepower and limit overkill since they fire separately. Gunz also have a massive footprint which helps for board control, no morale issue, 48'' range and no penalty for moving and shooting. Only downside is being vehicle.
6 Smashas deal an average of 7ish hits and 6 dead marines, not just intercessors but tougher ones also as they easily wound T5, have AP-4 and their damage is D6. Weapons are also blast, which could help against 6+ units, although they're not common.
Lists with 8+ artillery models could also go double detachment in order to give them inner abiltiy to re-roll failed hit of 1s and a 6++.
Flash gitz unfortunately need tons of shielding gretchins and 1CPs per turn to work, or a vehicle but in that case their firepower gets a massive hit as abilities (DDD, better BS on kaptin, ammo runts' re-rolls and possible double shooting on 6) don't work on embarked units. Max unit of gitz with 30 gretchins is 480 points aka 12 Smasha gunz, gitz in a trukk are 400ish points aka 10 mek gunz.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/02 09:15:07
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