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Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror

I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are on how to play the Tempestus Scions in 9th edition?

They have the obvious strengths of mobility, price, and being standard in 5 man units. On the other hand they are still fairly flimsy and their signature Hot-Shot Lasguns are of limited use due to low strength. All of the regiments seem to have some viability for play and their stratagems are strong.

For me I am a big fan of multiple taurox primes rolling up with melta scions and throwing out heavy Dakka with their mini punisher cannons. I plan on using Kappic Eagles for the bonus to hit, stratagem, warlord trait, and relic (plus I love Hot Shot Volley Guns). I think a commander in a Valk flying around issuing orders seems like it can really do some heavy lifting.

What sort of fantastic future do you see for the glory boys of the Imperial Guard?

17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"

-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I agree what you describe is pretty good. I am however leaning personally into lambda lions for the RR1 wrld trait + the 5++ invuln and the -1ap weaponry, ALL of which can affect their tauroxes as well. Creatively used, their strat can let a 9 hotshotlasgun unit put about 10 mortal woudns on mortarian, too, which is pretty awesome.
Suddenly, a line of 4 gatling and hotshot taurox put out 120 shots and are 5++ invuln, and if you bring a few "base guns only" units in 10 man squads, those are also as good as pure gaurd troop choices get for holding an objective.

I think second detachment is also a wise move -- if pure gaurd, it gives you some indirect options like a manticore or 2, and more cheap bodies to bring in from reserves on the sides of the board at low cost.

Also. Here is the link to the very brilliantly done summary page from the 8th scions pages, that first page has a good list of regiments, etc, units, relics, stratagems, everything.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/785296.page

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/19 03:19:02


Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gig Harbor, WA

On the bright side, HSLG are the same whether the marines are T4 or T5. I hope they're reasonably competitive in 9th edition, I've got about 1000 points of them I recently stripped to repaint.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/13 17:55:42


 
   
Made in au
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





They should do fairly well. Able to take and to an extend hold objectives. Spamming out plasma and meltaguns will also be extremely useful. Tauroxes got a nice boost with vehicle rules and are very nice and killy in their own rights. I'd still go with Lions in most list building. Have a hammer and an anvil type build. Tauroxes on the field to hold, with volleyguns and the like backing them up while plasma squads drop down on the objectives you're able to clear out.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander








Remember with the Kappic Eagles Warlord Trait he can issue orders to any Stormtroopers unit, not just KE. That makes him very valuable in a mixed force if you take one, and you should.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




General Hobbs wrote:


Remember with the Kappic Eagles Warlord Trait he can issue orders to any Stormtroopers unit, not just KE. That makes him very valuable in a mixed force if you take one, and you should.


This is not accurate. The WLT explicitly specifies <55TH KAPPIC EAGLES INFANTRY> not <MILITARUM TEMPESTUS INFANTRY>.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Actually, that's somewhat debatable. The "within 24 inches" is certainly only for kappics, but then the language is "In ADDITION, if it is within a transport, it can still use its voice of command" which doesn't necessarily mean restricted to the kappics. It would be, I suspect, a normal voice of command for a generic tempestor prime, limited to 6 inches range or to a vox in that distance, but still, that could be issuing orders to someone else's troop.

I think. I don't want this to end up derailing the thread, though, it is either so or it isn't, and I really hadn't thought about your point at all as I haven't yet played this subfaction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/19 03:23:09


Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in gb
Andy Hoare




Norwich,England

As Troops in an Imperial Guard detachment I find Stormtroopers to be excellent. There is merit in pure Scions detachments with all the exciting bells and whistles they got with Psychic Awakening but for pure utility the humble 5 man Stormtrooper squad deep striking into the opponents deployment zone to score Linebreaker and Deploy Teleport Homers is the game winner. Could just be me struggling with Secondary picks for 9th but having the capability to consistently score 10 plus VP's on at least 2 out of 3 secondaries without having to adjust for scenario or opponent helps me keep pace when all my Imperial Guard vehicles bleed VP to bring it down.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





tauroxes are unusually good in scion hands for providing firepower, mobility, protection, and NOT going over 10 wounds so they don't get+10 bodies per kill on thin ranks and they get only 2/taurox on vehicles.

They are also fairly cheap, and in lambda lions hands, the gatling cannon or battle cannon start to be real guns.

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





So, as space marines come out, there is a huge shift in a very complex codex but one thing I notice is, space marine grav guns got worse, and space marine dev multimeltas got better. Made me think about the rules for ninth edition a bit and remember something.

You can superior intelligence enemy marines showing up from drop pods, if you are in position to do so, and a largeish unit iwth (for example) 4 melta and maybe 5 normal hotshots could do some serious damage to a pile of suddenly arriving marines. Course, 4 hotshotvolleyguns could do the same thing, AND have some fairly good utility against suddenly warping in nearby genestealers or even landing enemy scions.

So the idea of using a single squad with decent guns as a stringer defense -- create a spot the enemy can deepstrike a unit in to a pocket, and have a scions group just sitting there, kind of whistling innocently, next to their guns, what do you folks think? The kappics that can redeploy their units could do this one so that they don't start out needlessly exposed if the enemy doesn't put his deepstrikers in deepstrike, for example, or his devs in the drop pod for some reason. Or, I guess, they could be moved into that position only when the enemy makes it needful -- and have just a tiny, light, 5 man squad to put there and string out if that tactic isn't going to screen for you well. So you can choose.


Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dukeofstuff wrote:

You can superior intelligence enemy marines showing up from drop pods, if you are in position to do so, and a largeish unit iwth (for example) 4 melta and maybe 5 normal hotshots could do some serious damage to a pile of suddenly arriving marines. Course, 4 hotshotvolleyguns could do the same thing, AND have some fairly good utility against suddenly warping in nearby genestealers or even landing enemy scions.


With the current wording, you have to shoot at the pod. The marines disembarking are not eligible targets for the strat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/05 12:50:07


 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Until we see the 9th Codex, I expect them to remain as nische as they were in 8th. Overcosted guard squads, with crap 18" RF AP2 las guns, and vehicles that no one will ever use due to T7 8W profile, when 90% of your force can be airdropped for free.

The best thing about them is the command squads with Plasma, getting double shooting from their Tempestor. The Command Murder Squads are still their only gimmick and still viable, until 9th codex comes out.
   
Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator






I've been having good success with taurox prime spam and mounted infantry as 133rd. I have a few taurox primes loaded out with gatling and hsvg and a few with Cannon and auto cannons. The additional ap, 5++ aura, and reroll 1s makes them have a good damage output and okay durability. Then load up infantry with plasmas and meltas for tanks/monsters. Hotshot lasguns are good for shooting down medium to light infantry. With reroll 1s and orders to reroll wounds v monsters and vehicles, these lasguns can threaten most everything.

Here is another trick I like. Again, using the 133rd. Have a 10 man squad with all hslg and a Prime nearby with laurels of command. Unload from a taurox in rapid fire range of a vehicle/monster, use strat "gifts from the mechanicus", then order frfsrf, if I get a 2nd command from laurels to order "elimination protocols" to get reroll wounds. Lots of mortal wounds.

Aeronautica and auxilla can help offset some weaknesses for the scions, or an allied guard regiment can as well.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/05 19:17:04


"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus

If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Greetings!
I have been absorbing AM/tempestus for the last couple weeks (as an insider this time rather than opponent) and recently made some purchases. Anyway as I delve AM but focused more on ordo tempestus, my impression is scions and similarly AM aren't really equipped to do well in 9th at the moment.

AM brings bodies with a pulse to unlock heavy hitting tank aces and a battery of one sort or another. Thats good.
Scions do cheap reactive threat elimination pretty well for the cost.
But both bleed to secondaries. And neither does midfield contesting at all.

These armies really lack a strong push element inherently.. outside of bullgryns which I'm up in the air about right now. This has caused me to look back into soup for the missing piece(s) which would probably be custodes since I wanna avoid typical marine having played that out many times already.

Kinda frustrating and I should have seen it from a mile away but sometimes new plastic-crack does that.

That said I like a challenge and prefer the middle tables so thats what I'm aiming for.

EDIT- so for those experienced with tempestus what are you using that has some durability and combat capability?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/05 19:43:19


 
   
Made in us
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Haven't played with them yet (hell - only have 3 models painted so far), but been considering the following:

Using Progeny of Conflict on a second Prime and giving him Master of Command trait and Laurels of Command. Then running him with 2 base 10 man and one base 9 man squads in Taurox Primes. The Primes will help the squads get into rapid fire range. Then if facing a Vehicle every squad gets Elimination Protocals and on a 4+ also gets FRFSRF, on a further 4+ add in re rolls to hit of 1. 3/8 times one squad will get at least 2 orders, 3/8 times 2 units will get at least 2 orders and 1/8th of the time all 3 will get at least 2 orders. Only 1/8th of the time will no unit get a double order. The reroll strategem could be used to make it even more reliable. If you are Lambden Lions in particular this could be devastating against monsters and vehicles -
Against T6,7,8 and 9 with a 3+ save one unit will score just over 6 wounds, if using Point Blank Efficacy T6 and T7 3+, which is the majority of vehicles and monsters, that becomes just over 11 wounds from just one unit of 9 lasguns.
Against T4 or 5 3+ with FRFSRF, rerolls of 1 to hit and Killing Fields 9 Lambden lasguns will cause almost 12 wounds on average. The lasgun Scions will do better in Tauroxes or Valkyries rather than dropping to ensure they get into rapid fire range.

Another section of the army I'm building towards includes the Warlord with Keys to the Armoury for rerolls to hit of 1 and 2 10 man Scion squads with 4 plasma and 1 plasma pistol in each. These will be excellent at anti mech and anti meq. With Elimination Protocals they will be averaging over 12 wounds from the plasma when overcharged and an extra one from the lasguns against T6/7 3+ and against T8 3+ will be averaging 10.5 from the plasma. That's from just 1 squad not both. So both squads can be doing serious damage to a LoW if it doesn't have an invuln.

Lambden Lions again make the Gattling Cannon and HSVGs on a Taurox Prime crazy good Maths hammer wise. Plus you can get a lot of them on the field since they are reasonable price points wise and don't count to the rule of three. I can't think of many trasports that can put out the same firepower. They are however incredibly fragile looking at those stats. Probably want to take a 2nd detachment with tanks to take the heat off them.

Multiple melta squads dropping with another Prime should be incredible when given Elimination Protocals even not being in short range.

Been thinking that Scions don't have to be suicide squads. Command squads obviously are quite suicide esq being only 4 members, so maybe giving them HSVGs and placing them in ruins to to plink away through the match makes them a cheap squad that's reasonably durable for its points and won't attract too much of the opponents firepower whilst still being able to put out a decent amount of firepower like a mini pillbox.
Normal Scion squads will be able to benefit more from Orders, Auras and protection of special weapons in larger number squads. The inverse of that being that they will suffer more from morale and blast. Worth it imo for the buffs to more models.

Anyway these are my thoughts, I haven't played the army yet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/06 16:16:48


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IF you put the warlord in the center, those transports get rr1 and 5++ shields. They are also pretty zippy (he can keep up with them by ordering movemovemove on himself).

Minimum size for that pack is going to be 4 of them, I think, to be effective, giving you about the wounds of a tank commander trio, and with the shields, not much less survivability against many foes. Gaurd tends to have crap for AP weapons, so sure, if you face off against a line of battle cannons, you are in trouble, but a lot of the other armies in the game have less strength and higher AP, so you get tagged by half their hits, BUT tank commanders only save 1/6 or less the time and you save 1/3. Your vehicles are incredibly cheaper and you can step out troops from them to continue the fight after the leman russes blow up. If you only fight T8 enemies, you won't bite a lot, but remember that a lot of armies (like eldar) tend to be made of T6/T7 stuff, and your massive shot number will generate massive numbers of saves.

Example army posted below int he spoiler / army list -- would be ok, I am not claiming GREAT, but ok, remember, you are putting out sometihng like 180 shots of S4 a round with reroll 1 and a minimum of 1 armor piercing. That gives you a lot of leeway cause there are few infantry in the game it can't deal with in a turn or two, and whatever they are, they are less able to cope with your troops (that mostly haven't arrived till T2 anyway) if they don't have a single screen left alive. Which is the point of this group, picking something that is weak to your strength and then changing the nature of the battle on the enemy as soon as oyur tauroxes have cleared his fire warriors or tac marines or whatevers.
Spoiler:

3 tempest primes (one is warlord lambdan and relic lambdan), other one has laurels of command
6 5 man scions squads with 2 plasma each
6 taurox prime with gatling gun and 2 hotshotvolleygun and 1 stormbolter each
3 command squads (4 melta each)
1 valkyrie flyer (hellstrike, 2 heavy bolter, lascannon)

arty support detachment
pysker primaris
master of ordinance
10 man gaurd squad
manticore with full payload
astropath



yeah, my artillery detachment just went a bit psyker cause I had a few points leftover. Point is, you have some 60 T6 wounds in 5++ shield, 14 T7 at -1 to be hit, and 11W T7 hidden in the back. Fairly decent armor phase pressure, I think!

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/10/06 18:30:13


Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Interesting write up here.

Im looking for some support for my imperial knights list. I have 435 points left over.

2 tempestor, 2 commandsqauds and a 10 man squad in a Taurox. Should be fine, what do you think?

(Its a 1250 tournament list with a Crusader + 2 Armigers)
   
Made in us
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Soldier #243 wrote:
Interesting write up here.

Im looking for some support for my imperial knights list. I have 435 points left over.

2 tempestor, 2 commandsqauds and a 10 man squad in a Taurox. Should be fine, what do you think?

(Its a 1250 tournament list with a Crusader + 2 Armigers)


With 4 boxes of Scions you will have enough to equip each squad with 4 of the same weapon.
The boxed set and 2 normal scion boxes would be perfect.
For 435pts exactly you could have:
-Tempestor Prime
-Taurox Prime with Gattling Cannon and 2 hotshot vollyguns
-10 Scions with 4 plasma
-4 Commands with 4 melta
-4 Commands with 4 hotshot vollyguns




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dukeofstuff wrote:
Spoiler:
IF you put the warlord in the center, those transports get rr1 and 5++ shields. They are also pretty zippy (he can keep up with them by ordering movemovemove on himself).

Minimum size for that pack is going to be 4 of them, I think, to be effective, giving you about the wounds of a tank commander trio, and with the shields, not much less survivability against many foes. Gaurd tends to have crap for AP weapons, so sure, if you face off against a line of battle cannons, you are in trouble, but a lot of the other armies in the game have less strength and higher AP, so you get tagged by half their hits, BUT tank commanders only save 1/6 or less the time and you save 1/3. Your vehicles are incredibly cheaper and you can step out troops from them to continue the fight after the leman russes blow up. If you only fight T8 enemies, you won't bite a lot, but remember that a lot of armies (like eldar) tend to be made of T6/T7 stuff, and your massive shot number will generate massive numbers of saves.

Example army posted below int he spoiler / army list -- would be ok, I am not claiming GREAT, but ok, remember, you are putting out sometihng like 180 shots of S4 a round with reroll 1 and a minimum of 1 armor piercing. That gives you a lot of leeway cause there are few infantry in the game it can't deal with in a turn or two, and whatever they are, they are less able to cope with your troops (that mostly haven't arrived till T2 anyway) if they don't have a single screen left alive. Which is the point of this group, picking something that is weak to your strength and then changing the nature of the battle on the enemy as soon as oyur tauroxes have cleared his fire warriors or tac marines or whatevers.
[spoiler]
3 tempest primes (one is warlord lambdan and relic lambdan), other one has laurels of command
6 5 man scions squads with 2 plasma each
6 taurox prime with gatling gun and 2 hotshotvolleygun and 1 stormbolter each
3 command squads (4 melta each)
1 valkyrie flyer (hellstrike, 2 heavy bolter, lascannon)

arty support detachment
pysker primaris
master of ordinance
10 man gaurd squad
manticore with full payload
astropath



yeah, my artillery detachment just went a bit psyker cause I had a few points leftover. Point is, you have some 60 T6 wounds in 5++ shield, 14 T7 at -1 to be hit, and 11W T7 hidden in the back. Fairly decent armor phase pressure, I think!
[/spoiler]


Like the thoughts and the list. Think I might try out the 5++ on a wall of Taurox Primes myself once I get everything up and running.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/07 12:47:08


 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Poly Ranger wrote:


With 4 boxes of Scions you will have enough to equip each squad with 4 of the same weapon.
The boxed set and 2 normal scion boxes would be perfect.
For 435pts exactly you could have:
-Tempestor Prime
-Taurox Prime with Gattling Cannon and 2 hotshot vollyguns
-10 Scions with 4 plasma
-4 Commands with 4 melta
-4 Commands with 4 hotshot vollyguns


Yeah, but i need 2 Primes for 2 CommandSquads
Which Regiment you guys prefer for a "Support"-detachement
   
Made in us
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Soldier #243 wrote:
Poly Ranger wrote:


With 4 boxes of Scions you will have enough to equip each squad with 4 of the same weapon.
The boxed set and 2 normal scion boxes would be perfect.
For 435pts exactly you could have:
-Tempestor Prime
-Taurox Prime with Gattling Cannon and 2 hotshot vollyguns
-10 Scions with 4 plasma
-4 Commands with 4 melta
-4 Commands with 4 hotshot vollyguns


Yeah, but i need 2 Primes for 2 CommandSquads
Which Regiment you guys prefer for a "Support"-detachement


Ah yes true - was so focused on trying to fit it into 435 I forgot about that restriction.
I can only talk on paper atm but Lambden Lions seem the way to go in most cases, -3ap is huge as it pretty much almost negates a stage of the wounding process. Both of the Eagles and the Jackles are more situational than the others although Kappic Eagles would work well if you are expecting them to die after they have disembarked (but then you are paying double on a suicide Squad just for +1 to hit).
Iotan Dragons will be the best if you want to drop unupgraded lasgun Scions whilst the Iotan Gorgonnes are clearly the winners if you want to focus on melta.

Lions
-Tempestor Prime with plasma pistol, Keys to the armoury
-10 Scions with plasma pistol and 4 plasma guns
-4 command with 4 melta
-5 Scions with 2 hotshot vollyguns
-Taurox Prime with Gattling Cannon and 2 hotshot vollyguns
435pts

Prime drops with just the plasma squad. Doesnt need a rod since it's only 1 squad. Hopefully kill a model with the plasma pistol so you can activate killing fields. Plasma squad gets rerolls of 1 hit from WL trait plus a command. Use the strategem that allows an additional warlord trait if you don't want him as your warlord.
Melta squad does what melta squads do. The vollygun squad and Taurox can hold an objective in your deployment zone against advancing opponents or one midfield against opponents who like to hang back.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





If you end up with 2 starter box consider 2 gatling taurx with a prime and 155 points bare scions .. 3 squadlets of 5 and a pair volley. Your antihorde goes up and anything shot at a taurox cant be killing a knight at same time.

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Is there still a restriction on scion command squads? I can't find reference to it anywhere in dex OR FAQ.
   
Made in nz
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman



New Zealand

Page 132 green box-out on bottom right corner of Codex: Matched Play Rule - Command Squads
   
Made in us
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




dominuschao wrote:
Is there still a restriction on scion command squads? I can't find reference to it anywhere in dex OR FAQ.


1 command squad per Tempestor Prime
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Ah there it is thanks.

So I have a shell I'm fairly happy with now. I'll be running 30 ish scions including 2 cmd squads as the reactive portion of the army with at least 1 valkyrie maybe 2. Taurox primes I'm back and forth on.

These will be supported by bloody rose sisters for a super aggressive element mostly cheap assault units. The combo of these two factions seems fun and effective.

Anyway I have been building around lions but now I'm wondering if kappic eagles wouldn't be better due to master vox allwoing them to spread out and then also their bonus' to hit and move? I wanna roll 2 full squads with max hsvg and then 2 cmd squads with melta.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/11 19:08:05


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Looks like your scions have two purposes built in. One is antihorde at range, basically, from the 20 guys firing their 8 volleyguns.
They are nice, but could also be a tad fragile once down. I suspect these start in deepstrike and bring a tempest prime with command rod to land with them, forming a nice firing line with an order to reroll 1's and no penalty to shoot that turn.
The other (if I understand right) are going to be 2 melta squads you plop out of the single valkyrie with a tempest prime (probably rocking a command rod so he can order both)

Result is every important scion firing (because the guys landing with hotshotlasguns are only shooting 1 time and not even necessarily in range of the target at all) gets +1 to hit for being kappic eagles -- but you don't need master vox at all if you bunch them that way.

That means, you could (for example) give old grudges, or master strategist. Old grudges makes a lot of sense given to the guy who drops with the volleyguns if you are fighting marines .. pick a marine infantry unit you dislike, and reroll all the hits on it till you shred it.

So I like your strategic use of the kappics here, even though I USUALLY run lambdas myself, its got some good synergies in this particular setup and intention. The only part I don't see is any need for the master vox, but I suppose if you want it on the off chance you split the 2 melta teams up in some scenario, why not?

I would bring the meltas out of the valkyrie for "precision drop" AND +1 to hit, every time, while I would respectfully argue the 24 inch range bubble on the volleyguns and their natural desire not to be in melee mean they can drop back somewhere further to support -- and thus, be effective while close together with tempest number 2.

I think you have even just changed my "grand armee" of scions one more time, causing me to think that I should add the kappics as my THIRD branch of the scions so that I can benefit from the three doctrines simultaneously of lambda, iotan gorg, and kap eagles. Is it madness? Or ONE STEP BEYOND?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/11 22:05:07


Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Haha yes you've got the idea although I'm new so still coming to terms with the intricacies.

I've also been mulling over vox on the two full squads with the intention being to have the option to not bunch up the large squads as much.. As opposed to the master vox. The master vox seems really amazing. From my perspective it allows me to set up more defensively spread, potentially score multiple places without needing a character for each unit even hiding the user out of los centrally. And against assault bunching up might lose multiple units. So it is a strong defensive and offensive buff. In theory anyway.

The melta cmd squads would have the option to both ride by Valkyrie or deploy by DS depending on the match and priority targets whether I want to attempt an alpha or a beta strike with the melta.

The army should be very well positioned for 9th and particularly against the latest horde style armies we are seeing crop up. Less so against mechanized maybe but then assault can sort those and they don't have the same edge in scoring.

Scions because they're freaking cool and actually go underneath sisters for ranged efficiency. At least that's my impressions.

So I like the grudge idea to play mini ultramarines. I'll stew on that one. I also really like no penalty for moving with hsvg though.. with the main regret being losing access to mortal wound strat. But the higher ap of lions almost washes out the hit bonus. Damn they made the doctrines pretty competitive against each other.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 04:58:19


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Alternative thought.
You might look hard at a bigger wing of all plasma scions, from iotan dragons. They can fire doubletap at 15 inches with plasma, and 12 inches with hslg.
something like
tempestor prime with dragons "almost an astropath" warlord trait and command rod
tempestor prime with old grudges (-1 cp secondary warlord) and command rod
10 scions with 4 plasma, 5 hslg, 1 hslp/chain
10 scions with 4 plasma, 5 hslg, 1hslp/chain
10 scions with 4 plasma, 5 hslg, 1hslp/chain
command squad with 4 plasma
command squad with 4 plasma

This gives you a VERY solid 40 shots of plasma even when your enemy thinks he has screened you out to 13 inches from the thing you want to shoot or from his infiltrators, and you can put the entire thing into deepstrike to drop down and smack with.
I think its about the same exact price as your current flyer + 30 bodies, cause you traded a flyer for 4 more plasma on the big drop. You could swap entirely to "just kill screens" by not overcharging, and get something like 28 shots per unit, 8 of them s7/-3/1 and the rest s4/-2/1, and no minuses from heavy weapons at all. That compares favorably to the a putattive 10 man unit with 4 kappic eagles' volleyguns, I think, who end up with 16 s4/-2/1 and 10 s4/-2/1 shots as a best case scenario on the drop.

Hmmm. Thinking hard now if I want to change my scions big drop guys over to "easy mode" and just drop in 13 inches away, all day long.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 14:22:01


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Dakka Veteran




Hmm interesting stuff. The added range is definitely night and day. I know this from playing scarab occult vs plas termies. Actually their OW strat looks pretty slick with plas too and I do love plasma. Almost begs for yarrick.
I gotta say DOS your an asset to this community. Always insightful detailed responses and always up beat. Not sure your actually a dakkanaut man. Or maybe I've spent too much time in the heretic webways lolz.

Anyway heres where I'm at right now..

The sisters component is pure unadulterated aggressive push units.. so far something like this:
characters
3 x 8 repentias- rhinos
3 mortifiers
4 penitents
X flagellants

I don't worry too much about scouts because of that. Those will get obliterated. Screens are more troublesome but also less prevalent now. But I am wanting to handle hordes from every direction while also looking to shore up both backfields and go compact on my anti-mech/monster. And have cheap reactive units while limiting enemy reactive units. But I feel like I gotta keep the bird, its just too cool and has utility and distraction value. Plan is las, helstrikes, HBs. Is there an easy way to effect its shots?

With that in mind plasma is a solid middle ground. But I'm not sure it can compare to the horror of half ranged melta hitting on 2s potentially rerolling hits and all wounds. That will vape a knight or equivalent (no knights lately) pretty reliably. Or even knock the piss out of nurgle beasts.
Edit- should have said this won't compare to dropping ALL 20 plas in half range though. Thats pretty insane.

You've definitely changed my initial plan. Now I gotta dial it in. I almost want a mix of plasma, melta and HSVG now. Whats your thoughts on splitting the second scions into 2x5? This would allow flexibility in who rides the valkyrie..

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 16:24:35


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





there are several ways to make a bird shoot better.
1. officer of the fleet. "reroll 1's at the designated target, nearby flyer!"
2. lord commisar Yarrik. "I said shoot better, EVERYONE, reroll 1's, just cause you are near me."
3. go into hover mode (+1 to bs)
4. use an astropath to strip the enemy of their cover
5. use a catachan officer to pass the order "burn them out" to a nearby infantry flamer, and then fire at the target of that flamer/order combination, which loses its cover save benefit.
6. be next to old grudges guy and shoot the thing he hated enough for full wound rerolls.

If you put several of these together, suddenly, the heavy bolters S5/-1/2 become a terrifying weapon that is nearly the equal of stuff normally carried aroudn as the main weapon of a 24 wound knight crusader. I mean that 6/-2/2 gatling thing they shoot at bs3, but don't automatically reroll all wounds with, or strip cover with. (yes, they get 10 shots and you get 6 but the comparison remains, its pretty good for a cheap model that is a transport, and you are shooting hellstrike and lascannon potentially with reroll wounds/hit on 3/reroll 1's. It takes almost 3 flyers to make up the points for 1 of them, and they can't carry melta squads...

Cutting big scions into little scions is something I do a LOT. I used to run them in 8 with 5 man squadlets of crusaders as well, and would drop out a tiny wall of 2++ invuln between my scoins and the enemey. This REALLY confuses people. Or I would drop the crusaders ont he back field objectives. Or I would bring different scions int he flyers, and start the crusaders with my little artillery park, if I expected a turn 1 charge to hit the tanks.

Havenot used crusaders in ninth, but even so, it taught me the joys of mix and match small squads in valkyries with the scions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 16:40:58


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