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GW talks about the Codex: Space Marines - weapons and wargear updates (upgrades). Here is a short summary:

1. Flame weapons (now 12'' range)
flamer, flamestorm gauntlet - winners: XV8 crisis, Dominions, Primaris aggressors
combi-flamer - Chaos Termies, Wolfguard Termies, Sternguard vets.
hand flamer - Acolytes, DC, Seraphim squad
heavy flamer - Retributors, Baal Pred., Chimera

2. Melta weapons (now D6+2 at half range)
multimelta (heavy 2) - Retributors, Attack bikes, Dev. squad
combi-melta, meltagun, inferno pistol - Dominions, DC, Chaos Termies

3. Heavy bolters (now D2) - Retributors, LR Exterminator, Baneblade

4. Hunter-killer missiles (now 48'', H1, S10, AP-2, D'D6') - Sentinals, Rhino, any other vehicle which can have it

5. Melee weapons
Astartes chainsword (now S'user', AP-1, D1, +1A) - Blood claws, Khorne berzerkers, Assault marines
Power axe, power maul, power sword (all +1S) - Howling banshees, Vanguard vets., AM Crusaders

6. Storm shield (now 4++ inv save, +1 to armour save) - Assault termies, Custodian guard, Deathwing knights

Looks like serious boosts (or rectifications) to Marines, but also some Xenos armies benefit from the changes (Banshees, XV8 Crisis, CSM).

Those were all things that needed a good boost. I’m glad other factions get to ride on the coattails and benefit as well. Points will be the final call on if they wen’t too far.

The secondary affects on other armies are going to be fascinating. SoB only have the holy trinity to use, so the fact that plasma overshadowed the other options was not an issue for them. But now their whole armory got a big buff. Will the point of strength on power swords make Banshees viable?

I understand why GW buffed the under performing things rather then nerf the outliers. Nobody likes to be nerfed. It’s a Psychological thing. But with everything getting more and more lethal, the game is heading to a bad spot.

the storm shield change is a massive change to a TON of space marine models that commonly see play.

I am really excited about these changes.

 Nevelon wrote:
Those were all things that needed a good boost. I’m glad other factions get to ride on the coattails and benefit as well. Points will be the final call on if they wen’t too far.

The secondary affects on other armies are going to be fascinating. SoB only have the holy trinity to use, so the fact that plasma overshadowed the other options was not an issue for them. But now their whole armory got a big buff. Will the point of strength on power swords make Banshees viable?

I understand why GW buffed the under performing things rather then nerf the outliers. Nobody likes to be nerfed. It’s a Psychological thing. But with everything getting more and more lethal, the game is heading to a bad spot.

that and I think GW was reckongizing that some weapons just weren't performing right, 8th edition saw a total redo of the game and some weapons transitions to 8E just didn't work as well as they should. so this is GW stepping back looking at 4 years worth of data and saying "... ok this needs fixing"

The flamer change is nice, especially the overwatch thing.

The Melta change is nicer.

I don't know what to make of the HB change yet. I still don't think I'd take a Heavy Bolter over a Grav Cannon + Amp for the same points. The same models likely to have multiple wounds are likely to have a 3+ save. 4 S5 -3 D3D most of the time it matters at 24" feels better than 3 S5 -2 D2 at 36"

Edit to Add, apparently they're not the same points, and Battlescribe needs an update?

The Hunter Killer change is kinda... so?

Astartes Chainswords is another bandaid only for some armies - and the same armies - on the gaping wound they made of the fight phase.

The Stormshield change I like the best. Especially if they give Terminator/etc captains the Indomitus Captain's "Relic Shield"

It'll be interesting to see exactly how far these changes actually goes when it comes to Xenos armies.

Craftworlds have items called Power Swords and Flamers, but are Fusion Guns getting the same treatment as Meltas? Are Ork Power Klaws getting the same treatment as Power Fists? Where does the distinction end?

 Bosskelot wrote:
It'll be interesting to see exactly how far these changes actually goes when it comes to Xenos armies.

Craftworlds have items called Power Swords and Flamers, but are Fusion Guns getting the same treatment as Meltas? Are Ork Power Klaws getting the same treatment as Power Fists? Where does the distinction end?

If they've got the same stat-line, but a different name, you'll get the new statline but have to wait until your codex is my bet. If they have a different stat-line all bets are off.

 Bosskelot wrote:
It'll be interesting to see exactly how far these changes actually goes when it comes to Xenos armies.

Craftworlds have items called Power Swords and Flamers, but are Fusion Guns getting the same treatment as Meltas? Are Ork Power Klaws getting the same treatment as Power Fists? Where does the distinction end?

presumably, although I could see GW taking the oppertunity to diffrentiate things a bit more, such as giving fusion guns more raw damage but only dealing +1 extra damage at close range, etc to add some subtle differances to armies

Most of it needed to be done. Nobody was using flamers or meltas unless they had no other choice. Depending on points that may still be the case given how cheap alternatives like lascannons are.


While the announcement is quite marine and sister centric in terms of name dropping this does look to be extended to all factions with similar weapons. Tau and Eldar are both called out by name.

Interestingly it means that Seraphim minis with double Hand Flamers will be in range at the same time as their fellow Bolt Pistol Sisters.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Interestingly it means that Seraphim minis with double Hand Flamers will be in range at the same time as their fellow Bolt Pistol Sisters.

.... OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!

 Nevelon wrote:

Will the point of strength on power swords make Banshees viable?

Only if they can get into melee with me.

A.T. wrote:
Most of it needed to be done. Nobody was using flamers or meltas unless they had no other choice. Depending on points that may still be the case given how cheap alternatives like lascannons are.

That happens every edition. There's always a FOTM special/element. It was mostly Plasma in 8th, it'll probably be Melta this time around.

Didn't they initially say that the Heavy Bolter, while going up to D2, also goes down to Heavy 1 instead of Heavy 3?
Was that part corrected in the meantime?

HMint wrote:
Didn't they initially say that the Heavy Bolter, while going up to D2, also goes down to Heavy 1 instead of Heavy 3?
Was that part corrected in the meantime?

No, its still heavy 3.

So stormshields have effectively made primaris units that can have them into terminators then yeah? 2+ armor and 4+ invul.

HMint wrote:
Didn't they initially say that the Heavy Bolter, while going up to D2, also goes down to Heavy 1 instead of Heavy 3?
Was that part corrected in the meantime?

There was a Warsuit datasheet leak that was kind of funky about that.

ccs wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

Will the point of strength on power swords make Banshees viable?

Only if they can get into melee with me.

I’ve not fielded Banshees in editions, but looking at them and listening to the chatter, getting them into combat is not the issue, but what they do once they get there. 8” move, advance plus charge (with a bonus 3”) covers a LOT of the table. And that’s before external tricks. With moderate investment in shenanigans, you are getting easy 24” charges off. But from me, that’s just theoryhammer, and I don’t know your army/meta.

ccs wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

Will the point of strength on power swords make Banshees viable?

Only if they can get into melee with me.

That's not usually a problem for Banshees.

I mean lets see if the math changes at all. We'll do 10 banshees, exarch with an Executioner, into a squad of 8 primaris intercessors, equal points. Banshees get the charge, but don't get to shoot pistols going in because they almost certainly used their "advance and charge" rule to get in.

7.2 wounds on the charge, 3 dead primaris 1 wounded. Primaris hit back, assuming the sgt has a new AP-1 chainsword and the banshees have the default -1 to hit in melee trait. 3 dead banshees.

So, theoretically speaking, the banshees do manage to kill 60pts while losing 45pts and then they prevent the intercessors from taking their shots the following turn. Realistically, the primaris are going to fall back, and something else will shoot the banshees to death whereupon they are 15ppm T3 4+ models...not a great look there.

If we continue the fight though, it'll be the astartes turn next, and they'll shoot pistols in and kill 1 more banshee, and then assuming that's the only fight going on the banshees will get to strike first, and they'll deal another 5 wounds, putting the marines down to just the sgt and one buddy who only kill 1 more banshee.

I'd say if Fall Back didn't exist, you'd have yourself a half-decent unit for fighting space marines right there. Not good, they'd get absolutely shrek'd by anything like an Aggressor or a Terminator because now the -1 to hit cap exists and they just blow them the feth out with powerfists. But 99.999% of the time in the actual game, what you'll be doing is trading 160pts of howling banshees for 60 points of whatever the cheapest thing in the marine player's army is.

I wonder if the answer is taking the best offensive exarch trait instead?

....Eh. No. I just looked at the exarch powers for banshees, there's not reallly one that would help a whole heck of a lot there. Decapitating strike adds 0.5 mortal wounds to the charge, potentially letting you kill 1 more intercessor on the charge, but even if you do you're still trading 160 for 80.

I wonder if Mirrorswords are also going to S4. That could possibly make Whirling Blades a choice.

Yeah. End of the day, I'm not seeing life changing significantly for banshees. they get 1/6 more damage, but a ton of their primary targets got 2x or 1.5x the durability. If your primary opponent plays Sisters of Battle or Militarum Tempestus or Necrons you could probably use Banshees, but if you're up against marines, you're better off just spending the points on Shining Spears who can actually kill MEQs and who might actually survive some decent shooting with the 3++ T4 W3 exarch.

The problem is, all banshees defenses only work in combat, fall back exists, and ignoring overwatch is no longer the hot tamale it was in 8th. That means they'd need their basic statline to be real good to give returns, which it just isn't, they fight like a tactical marine.

 Nevelon wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

Will the point of strength on power swords make Banshees viable?

Only if they can get into melee with me.

I’ve not fielded Banshees in editions, but looking at them and listening to the chatter, getting them into combat is not the issue, but what they do once they get there. 8” move, advance plus charge (with a bonus 3”) covers a LOT of the table. And that’s before external tricks. With moderate investment in shenanigans, you are getting easy 24” charges off. But from me, that’s just theoryhammer, and I don’t know your army/meta.

They're as viable as any of the other Fight Phase oriented units. Which isn't very compared to what they were before 8th. The problem isn't the unit, its the phase. Just about everything a fight oriented unit needed to make up for lost turns etc went away, as did other necessary rules like Locked.

Breton wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

Will the point of strength on power swords make Banshees viable?

Only if they can get into melee with me.

I’ve not fielded Banshees in editions, but looking at them and listening to the chatter, getting them into combat is not the issue, but what they do once they get there. 8” move, advance plus charge (with a bonus 3”) covers a LOT of the table. And that’s before external tricks. With moderate investment in shenanigans, you are getting easy 24” charges off. But from me, that’s just theoryhammer, and I don’t know your army/meta.

They're as viable as any of the other Fight Phase oriented units. Which isn't very compared to what they were before 8th. The problem isn't the unit, its the phase. Just about everything a fight oriented unit needed to make up for lost turns etc went away, as did other necessary rules like Locked.

I mean you say that but basically the only meta army right now that isn't primarily or majorly melee oriented. What's good right now, in terms of winrate?

-Harlequins
-Custodes
-Coven Eldar
-Marines

Of those armies only one is primarily guns based.

Breton wrote:

HMint wrote:
Didn't they initially say that the Heavy Bolter, while going up to D2, also goes down to Heavy 1 instead of Heavy 3?
Was that part corrected in the meantime?

There was a Warsuit datasheet leak that was kind of funky about that.

It's the Invictor warsuit hvy bolter only, because it's basically his sidearm (pistol). People extrapolated poorly from that when.clearly the HB was not getting a nerf when points went up.

the_scotsman wrote:



I mean you say that but basically the only meta army right now that isn't primarily or majorly melee oriented. What's good right now, in terms of winrate?

-Harlequins
-Custodes
-Coven Eldar
-Marines

Of those armies only one is primarily guns based.

Which one is the primarily gun based one? The one with 2D bolters?

Which Masque form?

Piercing strike with expert crafters is where its at for exarchs, on msu.

the_scotsman wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

Will the point of strength on power swords make Banshees viable?

Only if they can get into melee with me.

I’ve not fielded Banshees in editions, but looking at them and listening to the chatter, getting them into combat is not the issue, but what they do once they get there. 8” move, advance plus charge (with a bonus 3”) covers a LOT of the table. And that’s before external tricks. With moderate investment in shenanigans, you are getting easy 24” charges off. But from me, that’s just theoryhammer, and I don’t know your army/meta.

They're as viable as any of the other Fight Phase oriented units. Which isn't very compared to what they were before 8th. The problem isn't the unit, its the phase. Just about everything a fight oriented unit needed to make up for lost turns etc went away, as did other necessary rules like Locked.

I mean you say that but basically the only meta army right now that isn't primarily or majorly melee oriented. What's good right now, in terms of winrate?

-Harlequins
-Custodes
-Coven Eldar
-Marines

Of those armies only one is primarily guns based.

AdMech and Death Guard are considered up there too but yeah, that's mostly the list. Harlequins and DEldar are a 'mixed' army as they spam a lot of Haywire shots and then use melee for the rest. Some Marine builds are still quite a bit of shooting too I think (I actually haven't seen too many 'winning marine lists' but I haven't been super attentive given COVID).

Audustum wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

Will the point of strength on power swords make Banshees viable?

Only if they can get into melee with me.

I’ve not fielded Banshees in editions, but looking at them and listening to the chatter, getting them into combat is not the issue, but what they do once they get there. 8” move, advance plus charge (with a bonus 3”) covers a LOT of the table. And that’s before external tricks. With moderate investment in shenanigans, you are getting easy 24” charges off. But from me, that’s just theoryhammer, and I don’t know your army/meta.

They're as viable as any of the other Fight Phase oriented units. Which isn't very compared to what they were before 8th. The problem isn't the unit, its the phase. Just about everything a fight oriented unit needed to make up for lost turns etc went away, as did other necessary rules like Locked.

I mean you say that but basically the only meta army right now that isn't primarily or majorly melee oriented. What's good right now, in terms of winrate?

-Harlequins
-Custodes
-Coven Eldar
-Marines

Of those armies only one is primarily guns based.

AdMech and Death Guard are considered up there too but yeah, that's mostly the list. Harlequins and DEldar are a 'mixed' army as they spam a lot of Haywire shots and then use melee for the rest. Some Marine builds are still quite a bit of shooting too I think (I actually haven't seen too many 'winning marine lists' but I haven't been super attentive given COVID).

DG has something absurdly bad like a 45% w/r IIRC. Admech is doing pretty OK, but their best build does involve the melee electropriests hanging in their transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:



I mean you say that but basically the only meta army right now that isn't primarily or majorly melee oriented. What's good right now, in terms of winrate?

-Harlequins
-Custodes
-Coven Eldar
-Marines

Of those armies only one is primarily guns based.

Which one is the primarily gun based one? The one with 2D bolters?

Which Masque form?

OK, I can tell at this point you're not engaging in any kind of good faith if you are actually alluding to fething CUSTODES being a primarily shooting-based army.

A good army for 9th edition is an army that is

1) durable
2) shoots well enough to remove a couple major threats to their core
3) seizes objectives through melee.

If you do those three things, you can win 9th. Not having units that can seize objectives through melee is a one-way ticket to a sub-50% winrate.