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If you have a unit that has a special rule of " They always fight first in the fight phase" and your engaged in a combat that carried over from last round, do you get to fight first even if it's your turn? My position was you do because always means at all times. My friend that I was playing noted that the core rules state "Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place the players must alternate selecting eligible units from their army..." as it was my turn taking place he felt the should fight first as this is clearly stated in the core rules. My position is the special rule supersedes the core rules. If anyone wants to know the precise ability in question it was "Preternatural speed" on a Genestealer Patriarch. Please weigh in on this its not a matter of whose right or wrong I think we both just want to follow the rules and clear the matter up for future battles. Thanks.

octar wrote:
My position is the special rule supersedes the core rules.

It's basically this. To expand on that a little - if you don't take this stance, there's very little point for the rule to even exist - since it would only be useful on units that have been charged, and it's typically given to units that want to be charging.

To widen the point, there are lots and lots and LOTS of rules that do absolutely nothing, if you don't allow them to override the core rules.

This is covered in the Rare Rules section in the Core Book.

“Some rules allow a unit from your army to always fight first ... If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have similar rules, then alternate selecting units to fight with from amongst these units, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.”

 Super Ready wrote:

octar wrote:
My position is the special rule supersedes the core rules.

It's basically this. To expand on that a little - if you don't take this stance, there's very little point for the rule to even exist - since it would only be useful on units that have been charged, and it's typically given to units that want to be charging.

To widen the point, there are lots and lots and LOTS of rules that do absolutely nothing, if you don't allow them to override the core rules.

This rules has been so confusing since day one and even after I thought I had grips on it in 9th this thread has made me reread the rules and question everything.

A KoS that always fights first get's charged... now I understand that normally the player whos turn it is NOT chooses an eligible unit normally they can't choose anything because they have nothing that charged BUT now I have this KoS that has the special rule...

So we go to the rare rules section which covers charging a model that always fights first.... and the players whose turn it is chooses first?!

So what the hell does this rule do other than letting models fight first in my own turns fight phase and in the off chance my opponent has made multiple charges I can activate my KoS 2nd after his first choice of charging unit?

Seems like it got even worse?

Help me understand why I'm wrong please

 Aijec wrote:

So what the hell does this rule do other than letting models fight first in my own turns fight phase and in the off chance my opponent has made multiple charges I can activate my KoS 2nd after his first choice of charging unit?

This is exactly what it does. And I’d argue multiple charges is actually pretty common - makes your opponent have to think hard about what order to activate their units in.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Aijec wrote:

So what the hell does this rule do other than letting models fight first in my own turns fight phase and in the off chance my opponent has made multiple charges I can activate my KoS 2nd after his first choice of charging unit?

This is exactly what it does. And I’d argue multiple charges is actually pretty common - makes your opponent have to think hard about what order to activate their units in.

So why does it need a RARE rules section that flips the order in which players choose units to fight with?! a quarter of the damn daemon book has the rule lol

It's not super relevant a lot of the time because a lot of things have to be true

1. your opponent WANTS to make that decision for themselves
2. you have two+ units that have been charged by opp
3. both units have relevant combat profiles

Lets not even worry about the strats that give a unit "Always fight first". Then we can just agree that the "fight phase" is broken as gak and I give up.

I think the rule for the order of picking units to fight to is poorly written, and could be laid out in a much more straightforward manner, but I think there is a clear order.

It seems to me that the intention is to have chargers fight first then to alternate which side fights and to make sure the charging player can’t “double dip” by having first pick of the non-charging units after their charging units have fought.

For the sake of simplicity, I think you can split fighting units into 3 broad categories: fight first, fight normally, fight last. The three groups alternate which player goes first, with the player whose turn it is going first in the “fight first” and “fight last” categories, and the opposing player goes first for the “fight normally” category. Within each category players alternate picking a unit to fight with until all units in them at category have fought, then start over for the next category.

Using this terminology, “fight first” is all chargers and any special rules that say “count as charging”, “always fight first” etc. “Fight last” is anything with an “ always fights last” or “fights after all other eligible units” etc.

“Fights normally” is everything else and any unit simultaneously with a “fights first” and “fights last” rule.

It’s looking at this sort of rule that makes me miss initiative.

Aash analysis is spot on, except the rose-tinted nostalgia for Initiative

 alextroy wrote:
Aash analysis is spot on, except the rose-tinted nostalgia for Initiative

Haha! Yeah, rose tinted indeed!

The problem with your grouping is that "always fight first" always lose priority to charging units so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to group them together.

Ya I agree the rules are poorly written. Everything mechanically works it just doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective.

Fight first was really weak in 8th and it feels like they had a great opportunity in 9th to let people who artificially fight first get to activate first.... but then they made the stupid rare rules addition.

Generally the units that have this rule are not capable of taking a hit so I would've loved to see them get the activation when they are charged.

 Aijec wrote:
The problem with your grouping is that "always fight first" always lose priority to charging units so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to group them together.

Ya I agree the rules are poorly written. Everything mechanically works it just doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective.

Fight first was really weak in 8th and it feels like they had a great opportunity in 9th to let people who artificially fight first get to activate first.... but then they made the stupid rare rules addition.

Generally the units that have this rule are not capable of taking a hit so I would've loved to see them get the activation when they are charged.

I don’t see how there’s anything wrong with how I’ve grouped them, more that the “always fight first” do fall into the same category as chargers for when they are selected to fight. In my experience it’s uncommon for only one unit to charge in a turn, so although the “fight first” ability still gives an advantage as that unit can fight before some of the charging units.

I also would prefer the rule to be different, perhaps a 4th category so the sequence would be “fight first”, “chargers”, “normal” then “fight last” but I think that would have its own issues.

Aash wrote:

 Aijec wrote:
The problem with your grouping is that "always fight first" always lose priority to charging units so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to group them together.

Ya I agree the rules are poorly written. Everything mechanically works it just doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective.

Fight first was really weak in 8th and it feels like they had a great opportunity in 9th to let people who artificially fight first get to activate first.... but then they made the stupid rare rules addition.

Generally the units that have this rule are not capable of taking a hit so I would've loved to see them get the activation when they are charged.

I don’t see how there’s anything wrong with how I’ve grouped them, more that the “always fight first” do fall into the same category as chargers for when they are selected to fight. In my experience it’s uncommon for only one unit to charge in a turn, so although the “fight first” ability still gives an advantage as that unit can fight before some of the charging units.

I also would prefer the rule to be different, perhaps a 4th category so the sequence would be “fight first”, “chargers”, “normal” then “fight last” but I think that would have its own issues.

i've literally already listed why it doesn't make sense to group them together. Claiming that it's uncommon for only 1 charge per turn Ifind very odd especially in this context where it's disadvantageous to the charger to let their 2nd best unit smack you before your 2nd charge.

I agree with you grouping them in the sense that it feels like they should be right there together but in practice it just doesn't play out this way in game.