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Hey guys

"World of Warcraft: classic servers" - a place where fans of the original concept and game can play the game, without the numerous additions and evolutions that have come since.

Got me thinking - the core concept and 'feel' of 40k has changed so much with the most recent versions, is there room for a similar kind of within 40k?
The game itself - if you took a photo of a 40k game now, with Knights and Super Heavies, it would be almost unrecognisable from a photo of perhaps 2nd through to 5th edition - the rules too.
The design of the miniatures - Centurions, giant wolves, Primaris Invader, hovering tanks etc have evolved massively from the low-fi, (less heroic?) miniatures of the past.
The background - Primaris, The Great Rift/Cawl, Primarchs etc. it has changed more in the most recent edition than the previous 20yrs combined.

I've deliberately left any judgements of old vs. new out of this, but just left my comments about how much the game setting, and everything around it, has changed over the past few years (which hopefully is a fairly neutral observation to make)

In the same way that Age of Sigmar saw the destruction of the old Fantasy world, I think in recent years we have seen something perhaps less dramatic (no one is burning their old armies, as far as I know!) but perhaps almost as far reaching within 40k.

So is there any space for a 'Classic 40k' (complete with retro style logo of course) where some kind of rough division was drawn, and would you buy/play such a thing if it existed?
- Rules based on platoon level combat and smaller model count of around 2nd to 5/6th edition, vehicles are present but no super heavies, knights/titans with pie-plate weapons, v. limited fliers.
- Background set in stone back to the 2nd through to 7th(?) edition i.e. Cadian Gate still stands, no Cawl/Primaris etc
- Needs some kind of deeply subjective judgement on 'no vehicles that look like they should fire spring-loaded plastic missiles'

I'm kind of expecting a few "go play 2nd ed grognard" (which is probably a fair comment!) but would anyone have an interest in this kind of thing, especially now as 40k has changed so much for those of us who have been around to see the transition?

I don't see what value it would add for GW to implement tbh. The old editions still exist. I know you said it as kind of a sarcastic 'get in before' comment but like...go play 2nd ed grognard?

I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where there's an absolute gak-load of 40k play groups and game stores within reasonable driving distance, and from what I've seen, groups die in 3 ways.

Way 1: The store closes, and all the members move to the nearest store to where they live, effectively ending the cohesion they have as a group.

Way 2: the store and playgroup becomes essentially a 'practice tournament' of hyper-meta, hyper-competitive play, and it essentially becomes impenetrable by any new player

Way 3: The store and playgroup begins implementing essentially a custom version of the game with tons of house-rules, possibly based on an older edition, and it becomes impenetrable by any new player

Way 3 is generally more of a "willing suicide" by a store group that has become a closed clique who aren't interested in playing with anyone but each other. Typically when you have a smaller store with just 1 or 2 gaming tables so only 4 or 5 people can really be in there at any given time, so the gaming crew is more just a small group of friends than an attempt at some kind of community, this is where Way 3 tends to happen.

You can always tell when Way 2 starts to happen at a store with a larger group, because you start getting a steady flow of new players moving over and joining your less tournament-oriented group, and your tournament-oriented players start playing in and talking about tons of competitive events hosted by the other store.

While I am biased as I am not interested in the concept, I really can't see this being beneficial to GW in a cost/benefit sense.

@OP

A number of us are working on various "OldHammer" projects - in fact a few of us were discussing putting an article together outlining the different projects that are underway.

That said - as a big commercial project I doubt GW would do anything official. There is the 30k ruleset stuff which is based more on 7th edition already.

Personally, I don't like the current direction of the game, and so I've been working on a throw-back "classic" 40k rule set that builds on 5th edition but pulls in some rules from across 2nd-7th edition where it makes sense. The aim to keep a more classic scale and style of play, but adjust things to make it a deeper game tactically where it can be. Has the advantage of working with any codex from 3rd-7th edition - albeit with restrictions placed on the later codexes (no flyers, no formations, no super heavies / lords of war, etc unless your opponent agrees).

As a thing GW creates and support?

I don't think so. As a business there is little point printing rules and books which say "you can only use these units, not those units". You also then get into the fight over which ruleset to use. Is this "9th but no knights and flyers (and other units deemed non-canon)"? 5th? 2nd?

I mean I don't do oldhammer, and I think part of the reasons for that are the same as why I found Classic WoW a fun but ultimately disappointing experience. Its wasn't like playing a game, it was like going to a museum. As a result people were not so much "playing" - in the sense of exploring and finding things out - but were instead checking off exhibits. There were fun exhibits sure, but everything is set in stone. There was no doubt or hope as to the future.

But Covid aside, you can probably find games without Knights and Flyers right now, because both are on the mediocre side of things rather than top tier auto-includes. I think Centurions look silly - but they came out in 2013 I think. Its getting a long time ago. I'm not quite sure what makes the cut into "classic".

I don't see a reason to divide the community with 40k/ 'classic' 40k. Also, what does classic 40k mean? Where do you go?

Sounds like all you really need to to do is just play with people who don't like Primaris, knights or flyers,

Done.

Or crack open your 5th ed rulebook and play that- lots of people here probably do both of those things.

40k's design has always been "Don't like it, don't use it."

You do have to find a group of like minded people in order to pull it off, and a bespoke rule set that forces everyone to play the way you want to play might help.

But gW isn't going to publish a game that excludes so many of their models. The only reason they went with Kill Team is that it's a friendlier entry level game whose player base will likely decide to scale up over time.

What you're talking about is a game that would be 40k scale but would exclude a huge chunk of the model range.

So just find a bunch of other people who liked 5th better and play it with them. If you have trouble doing this, that might tell you something.

You can effectively accomplish this by,

>building armies with those specific models you do not like excluded (which I imagine you already do)
>playing with people who have similar rules for their armies
>building multiple, small armies which exclude the miniatures you do not like

It seems silly to dedicate an entire ruleset to what are, in part, entirely subjective judgements of what mins you do and don't like.

To be fair, old Warhammer Fantasy editions still exist and yet GW has announced they're bringing back the Old World, complete with square bases.

Perhaps they know something.

EDIT:
The advantage of having a supported game instead of just playing older editions is that it's, well, supported.

Rules updates that iterate on what came before, rather than throwing everything away and starting fresh.

Cheers for the replies guys. One thing I tried to be clear about is that I didn't want to start talking about 'like' and 'dislike' (I know a lot of people love the new miniature style, love that the timeline has finally moved forward after nigh-on twenty years of stasis - which was a major beef for some previously), it's more of there being a recognition of how much the game has changed over recent years. And, that looking at older versions of the game compared to now, that there might be enough differentiation to identify the initial iterations as a separate thing.

I think this is why 'Oldhammer' is now becoming a thing, and is seemingly more and more popular - because it's something that's significantly different from what is currently available.

Tyel wrote:As a thing GW creates and support?

I don't think so. As a business there is little point printing rules and books which say "you can only use these units, not those units". *snip*

From a business perspective though, what if I'm a customer to whom none of the current range of miniatures and rulesets appeals to*?
Assuming GW still owns all the rights to the old rulebooks and the moulds still exist for the old miniatures, what would stop them doing 'classics' releases, in the same way that this is common for other media? (films, books, games etc.)
I know this will be a smaller market than the current, shiny new stuff (in the same way as retro gaming or vinyl record releases don't have anything like the numbers of their contemporary equivalents) but it might still be a market there.

*Funnily enough, I understand Necromunda and Blood Bowl fulfil this criteria (both games I love and have heavily invested in!)

jaredb wrote:I don't see a reason to divide the community with 40k/ 'classic' 40k. Also, what does classic 40k mean? Where do you go?

I agree it's quite hard to put a finger on the exact point. My feeling, as someone who has followed 40k since the tail end of Rogue Trader, I would say it's the point where the design and style of the game "got turned up to 11"
Miniatures are part of this - I think (perhaps because of improvements in plastics) designs started becoming more busy. I think, what had previously been quite constrained became flamboyant. Hat size and volume of accessories increased exponentially
The rules - miniature counts increasing, more/larger vehicles, more abstraction of rules necessary to deal with the larger model count and still be able to finish the game in an evening.
Background - Has changed from a snapshot of 1 minute to midnight on the doomsday clock for the human race, to an 'ongoing' good vs. evil battle. I expect it to become commonplace now for the setting to move forward alongside new releases, now that the stasis/unmoving deadlock, which really had existed since 2nd ed, has been broken.

Once again I realise it's very much a subjective judgement (one man's treasure, and all that). But, I'm acknowledging that the 'product' has changed, and we all feel differently about what we want.
Also I understand that a fair bit of nostalgia is involved - it's quite possible for someone only coming into the game now to look at miniatures from the 90s and say they are a load of cack (a lot of them certainly are are compared to current standards), or that the rules are too clunky and slow. But, that doesn't make that desire for that previous incarnation of the game any less valid. In the same way people still live 8 and 16-bit computer games, even though they are often technically very basic compared to their modern counterparts.

Just some thoughts in any case!

for 40k Classics, as Retro is the new Black

there is 30k/ HorusHeresy, updated 7th Edi rules therefore compatible with the old army books and Marine focused

2nd Edition
there are still people around playing and you can find updated rules online

5th Edition
still played as well, sources are difficult, but you can find rules online

 Mezmorki wrote:

A number of us are working on various "OldHammer" projects - in fact a few of us were discussing putting an article together outlining the different projects that are underway.

feels like early 6th edition were also a lot of alternative rules projects were going on and as far as I know only One-Page rules is still a thing
curios what is going on out there so an article about it would be nice

I feel like the Inq28 and Oldhammer movements *are* 40k classic.

As something "officially licensed" as a GW product - probably not, but pre-covid there was a regular "2nd ED" night at our LGS, and one of the neighboring stores actually hosted Rogue Trader nights once a month.

There's definitely interest in those older editions amongst certain groups. The "2nd Ed" night was, at one point, actually drawing significantly more players than their regular 7th ed nights.

 Pacific wrote:
So is there any space for a 'Classic 40k'

In the unlikely event GW went for it they'd probably go skirmish-hammer rather than oldhammer, current lines boiled down to smaller subsets.
But while you could get an oldmarine codex down to around 20 core units I think GW would baulk at the idea of trimming models out of the system and keeping it trimmed.

As far as fan skirmish rules go the problem is that there is no widespread standard, and with all the will in the world a limit on how far anyone could take such an idea before GW brought the cease and desist down on them.

'Oldhammer night' is still a thing though - if not so much right at this moment.

 Pacific wrote:
I agree it's quite hard to put a finger on the exact point. My feeling, as someone who has followed 40k since the tail end of Rogue Trader, I would say it's the point where the design and style of the game "got turned up to 11"
Miniatures are part of this - I think (perhaps because of improvements in plastics) designs started becoming more busy. I think, what had previously been quite constrained became flamboyant. Hat size and volume of accessories increased exponentially

I played 40k most heavily in 2nd-4th, with a bit of 5th. I stepped my toe in the water of 8th and didn't particularly like the temperature. 9th edition looks to be a good improvement - but I fundamentally don't enjoy the rules, the advancement of the lore, the focus on bigger miniatures, the size of the armies, etc. as much as I did in earlier editions. I taught my kids and nephews how to play this summer and I taught them 5th edition.

Much like WHFB giving way to AoS, and now WHFB is coming back, I think there is a critical mass of people interested in the older additions. Contrary to GW's claims of 8th/9th being more streamlined - overall as a game it feels significantly more complex to me, as there is just more "stuff" to process at every step of playing: bigger codexes, stratagems, tactical objectives, more weapon types with more stats, no USR's meaning tons of other specific rules to keep track of, secondary objectives, and so on. The game is without a doubt more complex to learn and get a handle on. Sure, maybe the core rules of 5th edition were a little long, but everything else was significantly more concise. Not to mention that a lot of the older rules were written with more fluff and padding in them compared to the newer editions. So I'm even all that sure the rules were actually that much shorter back then. And along the way we've lost a lot of what made the gameplay appealing originally (less abstraction, etc.)

Anyway - the fact remains that it IS a different game now. Maybe not as different as AoS is to WHFB, but it's still a sizable shift across the board.

But honestly - I don't really "want" GW to make the classic version - because I think the community could collectively make a better "classic" version and maintain it as a sort of living rule set to be adjusted and refined overtime. There are a bunch of oldhammer projects floating around. I'm not sure if we'd ever get unity on version to use - but perhaps it's something to work towards?

You can play 40k classic right now. Get your old rulebooks out and play - nothing is stopping you.

There are currently multiple threads on the first page of this forum discussing older/alternate versions of 40k, so I'd say there is definitely an interest in "classic" 40k. Whether or not there is "space" for such rules editions/variations is totally dependent on the players in your locale, as GW will never support older editions. The constant churning of new editions with revamped codexes, supplement books, and white dwarf articles is a big part of GW's business model that they would not want to give up.

I for one heartily support older and alternate versions of 40k as I am not a fan of the current rules with the focus on card game "gotcha!" stratagems instead of more typical tabletop wargaming tactics. That being said, I'm just playing at home these days with my sons, but when I do play I choose 4th edition, Apocalypse, or Kill Team instead of 9th edition.

People always say "GW will never support older editions" when GW has announced they will be doing exactly that with Warhammer Fantasy.

For me and my own "classic 40k" project I think the appeal is as much that GW isn't writing the rules as that it's older Warhammer. I don't want GW to try doing "classic 40k"; they'd screw it up, it'd splinter the classichammer community more, and they'd release it at a glacial pace (a la 30k) with no proofreading.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
People always say "GW will never support older editions" when GW has announced they will be doing exactly that with Warhammer Fantasy.

Yeah. And how's that coming? One article of Kislevite concept art?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
People always say "GW will never support older editions" when GW has announced they will be doing exactly that with Warhammer Fantasy.

They will not simply say "6th edition is now officially supported at GW tournaments" or something to that effect, as they will want to retain control, continuing development, and SALES of the rules. i.e. they will create another ruleset to sell to players that want the classic rank and file Warhammer Fantasy style of game - that is not supporting an older edition.

No, not really. It's hard enough to play the actual game atm.

 Gnarlly wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
People always say "GW will never support older editions" when GW has announced they will be doing exactly that with Warhammer Fantasy.

They will not simply say "6th edition is now officially supported at GW tournaments" or something to that effect, as they will want to retain control, continuing development, and SALES of the rules. i.e. they will create another ruleset to sell to players that want the classic rank and file Warhammer Fantasy style of game - that is not supporting an older edition.

Well, it's functionally the same. They'll design a new game that is based on the paradigms and ideas of the old game. It's the old game, but supported.

Which is what everyone really wants, right? No one just wants "4th edition, exactly the same, unchanged." That would be silly.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Gnarlly wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
People always say "GW will never support older editions" when GW has announced they will be doing exactly that with Warhammer Fantasy.

They will not simply say "6th edition is now officially supported at GW tournaments" or something to that effect, as they will want to retain control, continuing development, and SALES of the rules. i.e. they will create another ruleset to sell to players that want the classic rank and file Warhammer Fantasy style of game - that is not supporting an older edition.

Well, it's functionally the same. They'll design a new game that is based on the paradigms and ideas of the old game. It's the old game, but supported.

Which is what everyone really wants, right? No one just wants "4th edition, exactly the same, unchanged." That would be silly.

Yes, exactly - which is why I think every OldHammer project has taken to tinkering with the older rules in some way to get it "right" (at least with respect to their own preferences and opinions!)

Speaking for just myself, I would want a static, solid ruleset that has been playtested with any broken rules issues ironed out. I happen to like the overwhelming majority of rules in 4th edition 40k, with a few minor tweaks to a couple rules (ex. rending, Eldar vehicle holofields). So no, not "exactly the same," but once the kinks are ironed out with a few revisions the rules would remain unchanged/static. But again, that does not fit into GW's business model as they want to continuously sell books with rules updates.

I would love a game that consciously evokes the "platoon-level" conflict that 40k in earlier editions seemed to model. Kill Team is fun but too small for that.

 Mezmorki wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Gnarlly wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
People always say "GW will never support older editions" when GW has announced they will be doing exactly that with Warhammer Fantasy.

They will not simply say "6th edition is now officially supported at GW tournaments" or something to that effect, as they will want to retain control, continuing development, and SALES of the rules. i.e. they will create another ruleset to sell to players that want the classic rank and file Warhammer Fantasy style of game - that is not supporting an older edition.

Well, it's functionally the same. They'll design a new game that is based on the paradigms and ideas of the old game. It's the old game, but supported.

Which is what everyone really wants, right? No one just wants "4th edition, exactly the same, unchanged." That would be silly.

Yes, exactly - which is why I think every OldHammer project has taken to tinkering with the older rules in some way to get it "right" (at least with respect to their own preferences and opinions!)

The problem is, anytime anyone decides "hey, it'd be great if we could take everything we like about old editions and everything we like about new editions and ditch everything we didn't like" generally that's them declaring that they are going to be playing god in that respect.

What one person loves and has nostalgia for from a new edition will undoubtedly be something that someone else loathed about that edition. For example, I absolutely HATED:

-The All-Or-Nothing AP system
-Random damage tables that caused vehicles to be either indestructible or explodinated in a single shot
-The old score-at-the-end missions
-Instant death, Eternal Warrior, and every weapon only dealing 1 damage or All The Damage You're Dead Now
-Strength Derp
-Having arguments with people about scatter dice
-Sweeping Advance
-Everything having fearless functionally making morale pointless
-Vehicles not being able to move more than 6" without basically turning off
-Unfolding a 19-page spreadsheet from the rulebook anytime you wanted to figure out how your attempt to Ram did diddly gak

The moments I'm most nostalgic about old editions are the moments when I'm not remembering everything about them that drove me up the wall. Every edition, every person has a half dozen things in the core rules that come up all the time that grind their gears and it'll be different for every person. "custom oldhammer" typically works in groups of 2-4 people who always play together and don't usually try to bring on new players.

EDIT:
The advantage of having a supported game instead of just playing older editions is that it's, well, supported.

Except that EVERYTHING is already available to play the game and not subject to GW changing/invalidating units/rules. so in a way it is more supported than 9th as it is complete.

kodos wrote:
5th Edition
still played as well, sources are difficult, but you can find rules online

Actually they are not. pretty much anything you want is easy to buy used and at a bargain compared to what GW charged for them new and definitely than what they charge now.

SecondTime wrote:No, not really. It's hard enough to play the actual game atm.

Were gamers we will find a way to get our fix


I mean i am not getting near as many games a week that i got in jan-march but that is mostly because we had to modify our game time to after hours private groups to meet restrictions which looses us about 4 hours of gaming on game night.

What one person loves and has nostalgia for from a new edition will undoubtedly be something that someone else loathed about that edition. For example, I absolutely HATED:

I see your point but i started back in 3rd and i love most of those things(noted exceptions). 8th ed + is not 40K to me, it is a different game entirely that i do not enjoy. some of that may be the fact that if i want variety in mechanics i play 10 different game systems, i don't need 40K to fill that itch

-Random damage tables that caused vehicles to be either indestructible or explodinated in a single shot

I see this as immersion about how armored vehicles actually work translated to the table.

-The old score-at-the-end missions

Keeps people playing to the end of the game because win/loss is not a forgone conclusion on turn 2/3

-Having arguments with people about scatter dice

Never really had that problem in the casual setting i play in.

-Everything having fearless functionally making morale pointless

Uh no, moral was actually quite a bit more important in the older editions than it is now. and the majority of units in the entire game were not fearless.

-Vehicles not being able to move more than 6" without basically turning off

Snap fire fixed that (and defensive strength weapons), it is why we use it in 5th

-Unfolding a 19-page spreadsheet from the rulebook anytime you wanted to figure out how your attempt to Ram did diddly gak

It is a really simple rule, don't see why you had a problem with calculating it.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
People always say "GW will never support older editions" when GW has announced they will be doing exactly that with Warhammer Fantasy.

no they are not
the never claimed to support the old system nor did anyone said that it will be a reboot based on old rules

we know nothing what GW is going to to here, except that is background setting will be inside the old old world.

FWIW, I recently bought used versions of older 5th edition codexes I was missing for less than $5 shipped in most cases. Lots of older stuff floating around for cheap.

Depends were you are and what people are selling (and of course what language you want/need)
compared to what GW books costs now at least here 5th Edi books are not really cheaper and everything bit Marines is hard to get

easy to get if you just browse the internet for random pdfs or community written rules-summeries