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How do!

So we’re all familiar with the idea that 40k isn’t very good with its maths. Space Marines in particular, numbering roughly 1,000,000, give or take, simply don’t have the numbers to make even the merest ounce of difference on the Galactic stage, regardless of how hard they are in a given bit of background or novel.

Well, thinking about it, this seems to hold true for pretty much all of SciFi that I’m familiar with.

Star Trek? Nowhere near enough ships for anyone to be a Galactic power. I mean, The Dominion have been shown to have ridiculously fast shipyards, and grow their troops to order. Yet their fleet is comparatively tiny, when you consider what they could’ve thrown up with just a couple more years of patience.

Star Wars? Reputedly 1,500,000 planets and colonies in The Empire. Yet, the star fleet apparently only had (according to the Wiki, other sources might be available) 25,000 Star Destroyers, and 50 Super Star Destroyers. How....how do those numbers work? Sure, not every planet is going to be against you. And not every system or planet opposed will have much in the way of warship building capacity. But even so....only 25,000? That’s.....the merest drop in a very, very large ocean.

Dune gets a pass because the whole thing revolves around Spice, which comes from a single planet. Sure, holding that planet is no mean feat, but at least it’s a solid anchor point for any ruler.

Maybe it’s the law of big numbers. They sound great, until you really stop to consider the difference between thousands, millions and billions.

Are there any in which the numbers make sense? I think Stargate might, because the Goa’uld prevented others attaining hyperspace capability, let alone spacefaring craft of any measure.

It helps to think about these "great powers" less as something akin to galactic space cops and more as the universe's most effective deterrents.

Space Marines do only number about 1mil soldiers. If you were a planetary governor, would you really want them dropping from the sky, using orbital bombardments to crush your palace? Probably not, so that keeps you in line. Not to mention the combined arms of the IG / Inquisition / Eccesiarchy, who you'd most likely have to face first.

Now let's say you're the Eldar. The Imperium wants you non-existent and you've already have a great enemy in the form of Slannesh. Do the Space Marines need to match you in numbers? Probably not, they need to keep you in check and make sure you don't mess with Imperial business. There's no need for constant struggle across the universe, there's a need to hold the line. That's what Space Marines are there for. Assuming they can travel to distant locations efficiently, 1 mil may very well be enough.

Ork, Tyrannids, Necrons - Space Marines have had epic battles with them a few thousand troops at a time. But conflicts tend to be localized and supported by other Imperial forces. They're the Emperor's Mailed Fist, coming in to destroy a strategic point, not the foot soldiers that fight every battle. 1 mil, again, may be enough.

With the Star Wars Empire, there's a lot of planetary & regional governments, trade federations, crime syndicates and other powers that exist in that universe. I've always thought about the Empire as the dominant force, one that has the power to exert it's will where it wants but doesn't get involved in the day-to-day of each destination in the galaxy. 25,000 Star Destroyers actually sounds like a lot when you also have diplomatic efforts for aligning other ruling institutions with your agenda.

Star Trek is different, the Federation is not about conquest or domination. They have their own worlds and just don't want them destroyed. They try not to intervene in the affairs of others, but study the universe instead. Except for the Borg.

The thing is numbers are really hard to impossible to estimate because we don't and never have, lived in an intergalactic society. We've no grounding to base off what the numbers could be and even our best scientists are basically shooting numbers at random into the stars.

I think its important that in such vast settings the numbers aren't there to be accurate, they are there to be relatable. To the reader and within the setting.


1million marines isn't' there to be perfectly scientifically accurate, its there to give an idea how many there are and that whilst its a big number; its a tiny number for the whole galaxy. It's trying to give that idea because if you start saying there's 2 billion of them then that sounds like a super big number because people aren't used to thinking of populations in numbers that are way beyond trillions (which is likely where the Imperiums population is). At some point bigger and bigger numbers lose meaning to the average person because they are so far outside their experiences.


Even a million can be quite beyond many people to envision if they aren't used to juggling such big numbers.



Also I'd say most settings tend to focus very heavily on the military end of things, even Star Trek focuses almost exclusively on the military end of most races. Consider that DS9 typically has military ships docked and we might see a frigate or transport only if it fits with the current story for the episode. When in reality it should likely have dozens of transports and trading vessels docking and leaving each day. Until the Dominion War a military/Starfleet ship should be, in comparison, a rarity appearing now and then.
Yet through the whole series we typically only see the military ships. We dont' see fleets of transports - ergo the whole civilian network - which is always far larger than the military; though would be a neat way to show differences in racial profiles -eg even Klingon transports you'd expect to be armed more heavily than Federation ones.


In fact of series that show the civilian network well I'd say that Cowboy Bebop actually does it about best.
Stargate always has an oddity that stargates, even on Goul'd worlds seem to be quite ignored. When in reality you'd expect them to be important trade and resource transport hubs. Rather than opening into empty fields or open spaces or the odd small ship compartment; you'd imagine that they'd open into large shipping networks with large round-shaped containers on transport beds being moved back and forth between worlds on a regular basis.

What was the rule in "Whose Line is it Anyway?"

All the points are made up and don't mean anything?

But sure let's give this a think.

First off how many marines/star ships/star destroyers do you really need?

The world has ~200 nations (195 I think is the official tally) and the US has 12 aircraft carriers (half of which are in port at any given time) yet is considered the preeminent naval power. OK it also has nuclear attacks subs and several hundred other surface vessels but it is the preeminent naval power because no one else wants to come out and play when the US has such a massive advantage.

How many British folks were in Indian around 1945? Not nearly enough to patrol every street corner.

The Imperium has a million marines, but also has more guardsmen than there stars in the sky. And more PDF dudes than them. The Marines are scary on a one and one level but also make a difference because they can drop from orbit or teleport in. The traitor's million man army can hold off the loyalists' million man army sure, but the Marine will just drop on his palace and take on his 100-man bodyguard unit. So most 40k are between a bunch of PDF guys with autoguns and maybe a tank vs a bunch of orks with sharp sticks and maybe a Deff Dread. Marines are only called out to drop on the Warboss' head and have a real fight with multiple dreadnaughts and tanks.

The Empire in Star Wars is still establishing control, gradually usurping the Senate and local rulers. So maybe that number of ISDs will grow. But also, canonically, their long term plan was terror tactics. Death Stars roaming the galaxy blowing up planets.

I think it was a Diskworld book that explained you don't need a cop on every corner when you put a cop in everyone's head. A kid thinks about throwing rocks at a Stormtrooper, looks at the sky, thinks about what happened to Alderon, and walks away.

So in a well-run system you don't need one ship per planet or whatever, once you establish control you just need to be strong enough to keep everyone in line.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!

So we’re all familiar with the idea that 40k isn’t very good with its maths. Space Marines in particular, numbering roughly 1,000,000, give or take, simply don’t have the numbers to make even the merest ounce of difference on the Galactic stage, regardless of how hard they are in a given bit of background or novel.

Well, thinking about it, this seems to hold true for pretty much all of SciFi that I’m familiar with.

Star Trek? Nowhere near enough ships for anyone to be a Galactic power. I mean, The Dominion have been shown to have ridiculously fast shipyards, and grow their troops to order. Yet their fleet is comparatively tiny, when you consider what they could’ve thrown up with just a couple more years of patience.

Star Wars? Reputedly 1,500,000 planets and colonies in The Empire. Yet, the star fleet apparently only had (according to the Wiki, other sources might be available) 25,000 Star Destroyers, and 50 Super Star Destroyers. How....how do those numbers work? Sure, not every planet is going to be against you. And not every system or planet opposed will have much in the way of warship building capacity. But even so....only 25,000? That’s.....the merest drop in a very, very large ocean.

Dune gets a pass because the whole thing revolves around Spice, which comes from a single planet. Sure, holding that planet is no mean feat, but at least it’s a solid anchor point for any ruler.

Maybe it’s the law of big numbers. They sound great, until you really stop to consider the difference between thousands, millions and billions.

Are there any in which the numbers make sense? I think Stargate might, because the Goa’uld prevented others attaining hyperspace capability, let alone spacefaring craft of any measure.

keep in mind the 25,000 ISDs number is old EU and comes more from extrapolating figures from a varity of sources, source one tells us that the Imperial Navy maintains a sector fleet of 25 star destroyers per sector, and that there where approx 1000 sectors. however this doesn't include floating fleets and task forces, also those ISDs would have support ships etc. also that's just on paper, the "fleet of 25,000" ships number with regards to star wars is literally like hearing the US names battleships after states, and thus concluding the US fleet consisted of just 50 battleships.

Imposition of control (whether military or more conventional law and order), is always dependent on people willing to be controlled. Either because at some level they consent to the control (as with most civil democracies) or because the consequences of not complying are unpalatable through to terrifying (most authoritarian regimes). There has never been a military or police organisation with anywhere near enough people or firepower to enforce control if the population are sufficiently united in opposition to them.

Another big element in “successful”* empires, such as the Romans and the British, is actually just a sort of franchise system/protection racket. It’s a hell of a lot more efficient to go in and persuade the existing local rulers to sign up to the corporation, adopt your flag and rule the place in your name. So long as they pay their taxes, everyone’s happy. Well, everyone in power with titles, money, etc.

*By “successful” I mean “achieved their intended goal”, not attempting to assess or comment on any other aspects...

 Jadenim wrote:
Imposition of control (whether military or more conventional law and order), is always dependent on people willing to be controlled. Either because at some level they consent to the control (as with most civil democracies) or because the consequences of not complying are unpalatable through to terrifying (most authoritarian regimes). There has never been a military or police organisation with anywhere near enough people or firepower to enforce control if the population are sufficiently united in opposition to them.

Another big element in “successful”* empires, such as the Romans and the British, is actually just a sort of franchise system/protection racket. It’s a hell of a lot more efficient to go in and persuade the existing local rulers to sign up to the corporation, adopt your flag and rule the place in your name. So long as they pay their taxes, everyone’s happy. Well, everyone in power with titles, money, etc.

*By “successful” I mean “achieved their intended goal”, not attempting to assess or comment on any other aspects...

The other big thing that allowed Rome to last for so long is the concept of social mobility. That a person has options to better their situation and rise up the social hierarchy. Where people get socially and economically locked that can build up into a bubble that inevitably bursts. Rome had it with slaves; Russia had it etc.... Basically if people have the option of social and economic mobility then instead of rising up with organised uprisings, they are more likely to use the ladders to rise up. It's like a pressure release valve.

40K lacks that (in a broad sense, accepting that each world is different) and it creates an ideal hotbed of dissent and disgruntlement for chaos and genestealer cults to set root in the population. Look at most cultists models and you see your menial labourers and lower classes - those who are most oppressed and who have the least chance to economically or socially rise from their station. They have no pressure release, and thus the pressure builds and builds and a cult sets its roots in and encourages it and builds it up and up - and because there are nearly always way more on the bottom than on the top you create an ideal situation for a chaotic and massive scale uprising.

The problem with all these universes is the lack of colonies that aren't planet bound. I mean sure, they sprinkle space stations here and there, but for the most part they're restricted to planetary living. This means that gravity wells are always an issue for moving people around, and that your population is limited to planetary heat dissipation capacity. A single star with a Dyson swarm of space habitats could easily outnumber all of the Imperium of Mankind, the Federation and the Republic/Empire, COMBINED, with fleets of billions of ships.

Now, running and maintaining that level of space colonies may not ever be practical. If that's the case, then your industrial capacity for spaceship building is similarly limited. In the case of Star Trek, the Federation is VERY young and humanity hasn't had a chance to build up numbers (and suffered a population collapse before founding the Federation), and the galaxy seems pretty short on mature starfaring races (though they did find a Dyson Sphere in one episode, which was abandoned). Star Trek races seem to evolve into energy beings beyond the need for such crap and they go to live in alternate dimensions or such. The Imperium of Mankind is far older but humanity had serious competition until the Fall of the Eldar (who were very much a mature space faring civilization), but the Age of Strife pretty much destroyed everything of value and all that is left is scraps and the Imperium can't rebuild its industrial capacity, which is in the hands of hoarders (Admech). The Republic should have been old enough and peaceful enough to form Dyson swarms, but they seem to have hard limits on maintenance issues (starships last a few decades at best), which means you can only really keep a low number of ships in service based on your economy and big stations are something of a luxury (Death Stars nothwithstanding, how long would they remain in service once built?).

Obviously most of these things really boil down to authors not thinking big enough, but the assumption that any spacefaring race would end up with quadrillions of people with billions of huge space cruisers is just that, an assumption. If space colonies are very hard/expensive to maintain, you've got hard caps on your population and most races would self-regulate their population levels.

 Overread wrote:


Also I'd say most settings tend to focus very heavily on the military end of things, even Star Trek focuses almost exclusively on the military end of most races. Consider that DS9 typically has military ships docked and we might see a frigate or transport only if it fits with the current story for the episode. When in reality it should likely have dozens of transports and trading vessels docking and leaving each day. Until the Dominion War a military/Starfleet ship should be, in comparison, a rarity appearing now and then.
Yet through the whole series we typically only see the military ships. We dont' see fleets of transports - ergo the whole civilian network - which is always far larger than the military; though would be a neat way to show differences in racial profiles -eg even Klingon transports you'd expect to be armed more heavily than Federation ones.


In fact of series that show the civilian network well I'd say that Cowboy Bebop actually does it about best.
Stargate always has an oddity that stargates, even on Goul'd worlds seem to be quite ignored. When in reality you'd expect them to be important trade and resource transport hubs. Rather than opening into empty fields or open spaces or the odd small ship compartment; you'd imagine that they'd open into large shipping networks with large round-shaped containers on transport beds being moved back and forth between worlds on a regular basis.

Babylon 5 had a good take on that. There were always civilian transports and ships moving about.

This is a shortfall of the consumable product that most scifi is. Sometimes the world is thought out in enough realistic detail as to provide realistic numbers, but more often, the ins and outs of the scifi universe presented is an expedeint to facilitate the teling of a particular story and no more.

It's the same in a Dungeons and Dragons campaign. Cities characters visit and their economies are generally highly simplified, and are there to faciliate the moving forward of the story rather than represent in exact logistical detail the entire economy.

That said, what a great challenge now that we can do as much with computers as we can, to build fictional worlds up from detailed ai simulation of planets, resources, technologies, and personalities. Letting the simulation build itself into it's own realistic and vibrant world, then stopping it and freezing it at points to insert the drama and action, then seeing how it all readjusts to the results. Perhaps a new fronteir in gaming and story telling.

 RegularGuy wrote:
This is a shortfall of the consumable product that most scifi is. Sometimes the world is thought out in enough realistic detail as to provide realistic numbers, but more often, the ins and outs of the scifi universe presented is an expedeint to facilitate the teling of a particular story and no more.

It's the same in a Dungeons and Dragons campaign. Cities characters visit and their economies are generally highly simplified, and are there to faciliate the moving forward of the story rather than represent in exact logistical detail the entire economy.

That said, what a great challenge now that we can do as much with computers as we can, to build fictional worlds up from detailed ai simulation of planets, resources, technologies, and personalities. Letting the simulation build itself into it's own realistic and vibrant world, then stopping it and freezing it at points to insert the drama and action, then seeing how it all readjusts to the results. Perhaps a new fronteir in gaming and story telling.

Look around...... that is what you are experiencing as the real world all ready!

<Dramatic Chord!>

Ah, but that's just one of many worlds. What about when you log into your space mining and combat game, and the entire universe is a living simulation unto itself. Etc.

Space Marines are ultimately mostly a propaganda piece. The real power of the Imperium is from the normal human forces of the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard. Organizations who are not given exact numbers.

Even with conservative estimates, the Imperial navy most likely has hundreds of thousands of ships spread across the galaxy given the immense size of the Imperium.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!

So we’re all familiar with the idea that 40k isn’t very good with its maths. Space Marines in particular, numbering roughly 1,000,000, give or take, simply don’t have the numbers to make even the merest ounce of difference on the Galactic stage, regardless of how hard they are in a given bit of background or novel.

Well, thinking about it, this seems to hold true for pretty much all of SciFi that I’m familiar with.

Star Trek? Nowhere near enough ships for anyone to be a Galactic power. I mean, The Dominion have been shown to have ridiculously fast shipyards, and grow their troops to order. Yet their fleet is comparatively tiny, when you consider what they could’ve thrown up with just a couple more years of patience.

Star Wars? Reputedly 1,500,000 planets and colonies in The Empire. Yet, the star fleet apparently only had (according to the Wiki, other sources might be available) 25,000 Star Destroyers, and 50 Super Star Destroyers. How....how do those numbers work? Sure, not every planet is going to be against you. And not every system or planet opposed will have much in the way of warship building capacity. But even so....only 25,000? That’s.....the merest drop in a very, very large ocean.

Dune gets a pass because the whole thing revolves around Spice, which comes from a single planet. Sure, holding that planet is no mean feat, but at least it’s a solid anchor point for any ruler.

Maybe it’s the law of big numbers. They sound great, until you really stop to consider the difference between thousands, millions and billions.

Are there any in which the numbers make sense? I think Stargate might, because the Goa’uld prevented others attaining hyperspace capability, let alone spacefaring craft of any measure.

To be fair to Star Wars, the Empire having 25,000 Imperial-class Star Destroyers (specifically Imperial Class) is like the US Navy saying they have 11 San Antonio-class LPD's. That doesn't include the countless smaller classes of vessels in Imperial service which are generally assumed to be far more numerous, nor does it include the other dozen or so classes of Star Destroyer known to be in service with the Empire either.

keep in mind the 25,000 ISDs number is old EU

No, its actually current canon as well, but again applies specifically and only to Imperial-class Star Destroyers and doesn't include Venators, Tectors, Gladiators, qaz, Victories, or any of the other known classes of Star Destroyer, nor does it include any of the light cruisers, corvettes, frigates, carriers, cruisers, heavy cruisers, battlecruisers, dreadnoughts, star dreadnoughts, etc. in Imperial service. The Imperial fleet is far larger.

That being said, Star Wars is still horrible with numbers. Legends was much better about things generally speaking - in Legends the size of the clone armies are established to measure in the billions (and it was generally understood that on Kamino when they referred to "units" they meant squads or some other metric rather than individuals) and the droids numbered somewhere in the trillions. In Canon they have adhered rigidly to the idea that "units" referred to individuals, so the entirety of the Clone army amounted to about 6-7 million clones total against a billion or so droids. One of these sets of numbers makes a lot more sense than the other.

Not every planet in the empire is corruscant or alderaan. Planets like tattooine, really wtf would it take to garrison that planet and keep it in line, assuming it's even worth keeping in line?

Hoth may have been technically an imperial world. again not worth leaving a tie fighter in orbit to control it.

The empire may boast a huge number of worlds to look and sound big and impressive, but honestly, what percentage of them would be worth 'controlling" with force? Bespin was basically cloud city, that's it. Even lando admitted it was too small for the empire to notice.

Maybe those 25,000 star destroyers were enough to keep the planets that mattered in line. Maybe most of the planets in the empire weren't really worth much in terms of population, resources, etc. Who cares if a pimple on the glaxay's @$$ declares itself 'independent'? How long would it take the empire to notice? And then what, one SD drops by, strafes a couple population centers and leave a few hundred stormtroopers and a couple walkers to beat the locals back in line? Or maybe they just drop a few dirty nukes on it and come back in a few decades.

I mean, if cut off from outside trade, how big a population could tatooine support and for how long? What resources does it have? Anything vital? If an imperial office declarers tattooine to be a world you can't do business with because it is disloyal, how long would it survive even without any direct military action? Smugglers might deal with them at exorbitant prices IF they have anything worth trading for.

Many worlds might be unable to survive without imperial trade and commerce, they don;t need a military vessel overhead to keep them in line.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Not every planet in the empire is corruscant or alderaan. Planets like tattooine, really wtf would it take to garrison that planet and keep it in line, assuming it's even worth keeping in line?

Probably a lot considering its basically a high crime world.

Thing is you look at the Emperor and his plan was clearly not to have the Imperial Army have to garrison every single world. Instead he was going to dissolve the Republic and let local leaders run their worlds as they wished. You'd still pay your tithe and loyalty and all to Empire, but you'd be allowed to govern yourself. If you stepped out of line you might get the Imperial Fleet turn up or he'd just blow your world up entirely with a Death Star. Chances are if he'd gone ahead with his plan he'd have used his force influence and agents to ensure that any time a single power started to rise up, another would rise against them. Basically encouraging and allowing wars within the Empire between power-parties so that they never organise enough to rise up against his control. Any that even try to would get hit by the Imperial Fleet/Deathstar.

With the very real threat of blowing up worlds that would seriously hamper any interest many systems would have in rising up against the Empire. You just don't want to risk it.

 Overread wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Not every planet in the empire is corruscant or alderaan. Planets like tattooine, really wtf would it take to garrison that planet and keep it in line, assuming it's even worth keeping in line?

Probably a lot considering its basically a high crime world.

.

Yeah, see, Tattooine was such a waste that it attracted petty criminals and such, because the empire didn't bother to maintain a presence there.

 Matt Swain wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Not every planet in the empire is corruscant or alderaan. Planets like tattooine, really wtf would it take to garrison that planet and keep it in line, assuming it's even worth keeping in line?

Probably a lot considering its basically a high crime world.

.

Yeah, see, Tattooine was such a waste that it attracted petty criminals and such, because the empire didn't bother to maintain a presence there.

It's more that its a world on the fringe of the Republic and the Empire and was ruled by the Hutts. Clearly it was prosperous enough to become a hotbed of crime, don't forget a scrap dealer was selling hyperdrives and such, so whilst the local population are dirt poor, the world itself still has at least some significance in resources and position. Plus being a world on the fringe it likely allowed itself to be a good meeting/trading spot.

The Empire actually expanded into it (its not part of the Republic in the prequel films) and took control, though its clear that the Hutts are still the ruling power. It's distance and isolation from the core is something that comes across poorly in the films in all honesty, mostly because the films deal with so few worlds and the time between worlds is typically shown as very short (to the viewer). So we never get a true sense of the vast scale of the Republic/Empire and just how out on the edge Tattooine is.

I don't think it is Sci-FI who have an issue.

I think it is the audience that has the issue.

Remember when the Nostromo cost 11million dollars. a 5th of the budget of the 3rd film.
Man, whoever Bid on that job must have used shoddy materials

You're right in that the number of Tatooines and Bespins in the galaxy outnumber the number of Coruscants and Naboo's, but the number of Coruscant and Naboos out there ain't small. Legends material, but we have this as a guide as to what the population breakdown looks like:



Couldn't find it in higher res, but with 1.5 million full member worlds and an additional 60-70 million colonies under its direct control, the map indicates that a fleet of 25,000 star destroyers on its own would be wholly insufficient to maintain control - mind you the map is the population as of 25ABY, so post-empire, and not all of that area *was* under Imperial control. Based on the map, it would seem that the 50th percentile for the galaxy in terms of population would fall in the 100 million to 500 million inhabitants range - so we'll say of the 1.5 million worlds, 50% of them - 750k planets - have at least 100 million people living on them ( I assume the 70 mil or so colonies and whatnot are going to be overwhelmingly in the range of 10 mil or fewer inhabitants). 25% of the 1.5 million planets (about 375k) would appear to have at least 1 billion inhabitants, and I'd estimate about 5% (75k) would have at least 100 billion.

Tried and true military science says you need about 1 soldier for every 40-50 citizens at a bare minimum to successfully occupy a territory, deal with insurgents, and provide stability. I can't say how the more advanced technology and weapon systems utilized by the Empire might influence these numbers, but US forces in Iraq peaked at somewhere around 1 in 140, based on the success (or lackthereof) of the Empire in maintaining control of the galaxy, I would guess that they probably hit a ratio of 1 in 80 to 1 in 100 (and maybe this is justification for the Death Star, as its a force multiplier that would allow fewer troops to hold greater area). If we assume that the Empire hit a ratio of 1 in 100 and that these occupying forces were primarily garrisoned aboard Star Destroyer, then based on each ISD's compliment of roughly 50k crew + stormtroopers, you would need 1 Star Destroyer for every 5 million inhabitants of a given planet.

Based on the prior calculations of average planet pop, etc. the Empires fleet of 25,000 Star Destroyers wouldn't even be sufficient to maintain control of Coruscants estimate 1 trillion inhabitants (25k ISDs x 5million = 125 billion), let alone an estimated 150 trillion inhabitants within the Empire (1.5 million worlds with an average population of say 100 million people - this is significantly lower than the officially/semi-officially estimated population of 1 quadrillion inhabitants of the galaxy), but we'll be kind and assume that the other 850 trillion inhabitants somehow exist outside of the Empires borders or are somehow a non-factor because of weird science or something). For that 150 trillion, you would need 30 million ISDs... which is a far cry from what we got, so either theres a significant number of forces on planetside garrisons or incredibly large numbers of other ships in the Imperial Navy, or ISDs and Star Wars tech provides a dramatic force multiplier beyond what things like Lanchesters Laws, etc. can account for and enables a much more favorable occupation ratio than what real world militaries can achieve.

And how would the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy? I think GW has rather hit the nail on the head with the munitorum and Administratum. Just think of the command structure required to keep any kind of control over 25,000 capital ships, each with attendant support fleets and attached ground forces.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Not every planet in the empire is corruscant or alderaan. Planets like tattooine, really wtf would it take to garrison that planet and keep it in line, assuming it's even worth keeping in line?

Of course. But then, if you're not keeping a particular planet in line then its not really part of your empire is it?

Which is somewhat explained as officially Tattooine is controlled by the Hutts, not the Empire or the Republic. And most of the Outer Rim is the same. Its only under Imperial control if they are directly occupying it. But this still leaves far too much of the galactic core woefully under-garrisoned. And its an issue for all of Star Wars really, not just the Galactic Empire.


Really, the canon Imperial forces would have far too much difficulty holding even 10% of the core worlds, let alone mucking around in the Outer Rim as they are always doing. Which leads me to what I have said before. The Star Wars universe is full of complete pansies letting such a woefully incompetent and insufficient Empire hold control over them. And the only reason the Rebellion didn't just steamroll the Empire with numbers is because they are equally incompetent.

The Republic should have collapsed centuries before the Clone wars, or at least been far smaller than it actually was. Without any type of military, or even a galactic police force, they could do nothing to prevent systems from just leaving. The only logical reason for the Republic to exist at all would be to facilitate trade or resolve disputes between individual member planets. But at that point you are a more like an arbitration service than a centralized government, but the movies definitely make it seem like a highly (dis)functional centralized government.

Now presumably the Republic taxes its member planets, but without any means of enforcing those taxes it makes no sense why they didn't just hemorrhage members all the time. Really the 'crisis' of the Separatist rebellion should have been a daily occurrence rather than some shocking development. Clearly there is little benefit to being part of the galactic Republic, but a lot of downsides.

Maybe taxes collected by the Republic could be used to provide weaker members with cash to developing their infrastructure, but this would result in a one-sided situation where wealthier planets would have zero incentive to stay in the Republic. The wealthy planets gain nothing by staying in the Republic, no protection from a powerful military, and all your taxes go towards underdeveloped systems. Meanwhile, you can simply leave this Republic because they have no ability to stop you and no way to make your life miserable as punishment. You can just make your own trade treaties with other planets and not have to pay any taxes. And if the Republic does get annoyed with you, what are they gonna do? Wag their finger at you?

Didn’t the Empire hide the construction budgets of two Death Stars, totaling millions of ISDs in material? Seems like they should have more ships.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Not every planet in the empire is corruscant or alderaan. Planets like tattooine, really wtf would it take to garrison that planet and keep it in line, assuming it's even worth keeping in line?

Of course. But then, if you're not keeping a particular planet in line then its not really part of your empire is it?

Which is somewhat explained as officially Tattooine is controlled by the Hutts, not the Empire or the Republic. And most of the Outer Rim is the same. Its only under Imperial control if they are directly occupying it. But this still leaves far too much of the galactic core woefully under-garrisoned. And its an issue for all of Star Wars really, not just the Galactic Empire.


Really, the canon Imperial forces would have far too much difficulty holding even 10% of the core worlds, let alone mucking around in the Outer Rim as they are always doing. Which leads me to what I have said before. The Star Wars universe is full of complete pansies letting such a woefully incompetent and insufficient Empire hold control over them. And the only reason the Rebellion didn't just steamroll the Empire with numbers is because they are equally incompetent.

The Republic should have collapsed centuries before the Clone wars, or at least been far smaller than it actually was. Without any type of military, or even a galactic police force, they could do nothing to prevent systems from just leaving. The only logical reason for the Republic to exist at all would be to facilitate trade or resolve disputes between individual member planets. But at that point you are a more like an arbitration service than a centralized government, but the movies definitely make it seem like a highly (dis)functional centralized government.

Now presumably the Republic taxes its member planets, but without any means of enforcing those taxes it makes no sense why they didn't just hemorrhage members all the time. Really the 'crisis' of the Separatist rebellion should have been a daily occurrence rather than some shocking development. Clearly there is little benefit to being part of the galactic Republic, but a lot of downsides.

Maybe taxes collected by the Republic could be used to provide weaker members with cash to developing their infrastructure, but this would result in a one-sided situation where wealthier planets would have zero incentive to stay in the Republic. The wealthy planets gain nothing by staying in the Republic, no protection from a powerful military, and all your taxes go towards underdeveloped systems. Meanwhile, you can simply leave this Republic because they have no ability to stop you and no way to make your life miserable as punishment. You can just make your own trade treaties with other planets and not have to pay any taxes. And if the Republic does get annoyed with you, what are they gonna do? Wag their finger at you?

In Star Wars defence, in current canon we’ve only really seen the dying days of the Republic. It was dysfunctional, and hopelessly corrupt. I suspect there’s an argument that Palpatine’s actions did preserve the order the non-Seperatist worlds wanted. And such argument would only be semi-apologist, due to the sheer level of corruption involved.

By that time, you have Trade Federations, Banking clans, and Techno Unions. All smaller groups within the Republic, all pulling in more or less the same direction for their own benefit. So a world or system wanting to go it’s own way would likely struggle, as they’d need to negotiate with those groups directly.

At the risk of lighting the political blue touch paper, one could use the example of the EU and Brexit as a real world example. Brexit shows an EU member state can leave the union. Yet, as Brexit has also shown, doing so isn’t something to be done lightly, as the departing state will then have to come to trade deals with the rest of the world, on its own. So however disgruntled a member might become, it’s still a move to made only after very careful consideration.

Most sci fi also assumes that the galaxy is a far less militarized and actively warlike place than our lovely planet Earth.

Once you imagine a world at peace... how much military does it need? What does it take to overwhelm a planet's militia? That's what scifi numbers require. If a Star Destroyer is bigger and tougher than an entire planetary garrison, then it's plenty to 'conquer' 10 or so star systems all on its own. You drop in, display power, crush local dissidents, perhaps assist the loyalist for a week or two every year, and move on to the next planet, with plenty of time left over for refitting.

Local police forces would maintain order in most Imperial holdings- think about the last time you saw military troops deployed in your hometown. Ultimately, a peaceful society doesn't spend a lot on military, and even a militarized society only spends enough to beat the next biggest guy on the block. The US has 1.3 million troops of all types, which costs us as much as the next 10 countries combined, to combat or oppress a world population of 7.5 billion. Earth is far more militarized and militant than any society imagined in scifi. Spacefaring races demand planetary stability.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Didn’t the Empire hide the construction budgets of two Death Stars, totaling millions of ISDs in material? Seems like they should have more ships.

I'm sure that was part of the outer rim education and greater prosperity budget

Why would the empire "hide" the death star budget? The whole point of the death star was to be a public warning against rebellion. Keeping it secret would make no sense.

In the expanded background admiral thrawn was very opposed to the death star as it's construction would be equal to thousands of star destroyers and millions of fighters. Looks like he was right.

They must have planned to make the death star public, they'd have to have announced making it. a lot of people could have estimated its budget.

Except we have 2 entire movies based around the fact that the Death Star was a huge secret. It was only after Alderan that the Empire went public with it, which backfired a bit when it was destroyed only days later.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Why would the empire "hide" the death star budget? The whole point of the death star was to be a public warning against rebellion. Keeping it secret would make no sense.

It does while its being built. Keep in mind the plans turned up in Attack of the Clones, so the Death Star construction project is around the same age as Luke and Leia, or a little older. An Imperial project of that magnitude (particularly if anyone had know details about what it was for) would have attracted saboteurs like flies on dung.

Showing it off once its working is one thing, but during construction is asking for trouble. So, super secret is definitely the way to go.

And yes, it is impractical compared to more troops, more fighters, and a larger fleet. But evil villains have been compared to peacocks- they've got an innate desire to shake those tailfeathers and have a measuring contest.