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I'm sure this has been talked about before, but I just finished gluing my indomitus marines to go with the marines I got in all the conquest magazines and wanted to try SM for the first time. It seems with all the rerolls given to dreadnoughts and infantry as well as all the strats, vehicles have become a liability. Could anyone link me a post discussing this or give their own opinion to this matter, because I love having a combo of foot and vehicles and want to know which ones people think are worth taking!

Cheers

ravenerioli wrote:
I'm sure this has been talked about before, but I just finished gluing my indomitus marines to go with the marines I got in all the conquest magazines and wanted to try SM for the first time. It seems with all the rerolls given to dreadnoughts and infantry as well as all the strats, vehicles have become a liability. Could anyone link me a post discussing this or give their own opinion to this matter, because I love having a combo of foot and vehicles and want to know which ones people think are worth taking!

Cheers

No, they simply aren't overpowered. But lots of them are good or even very good. Especially the light ones.

What SM vehicles are good, or even very good ? Any SM tank has no inv, and can easily get blasted off the battlefield in T1. The only useful vehicles are transports, because they protect troops, and help them move forward faster.

I think the dreadnaughts are pretty good, and they are vehicles. What they lack in invuln they get back in damage reduction, and in being able to benefit from CORE buffing auras. Also, some of them are able to gain character protection.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
I think the dreadnaughts are pretty good, and they are vehicles. What they lack in invuln they get back in damage reduction, and in being able to benefit from CORE buffing auras. Also, some of them are able to gain character protection.

Dreadnoughts are probably the only playable vehicle in SM army, due to the inbuilt -1dmg. Some of them having inv saves which is even better. The other maybe good vehicle is Impulsor, which is relatively inexpensive and can have inv save and can transport Bladeguard Veteran and assault Hellblasters and Assault Intercessors. For all other vehicles? I feel sorry for those cool tanks..... Inv save? no. Fly keyword? no. Receiving Character buff? no. Damage mitigation? no. Firing twice? also no. So they have no use and just a point sink.

Dreadnoughts excepted, yes. Armor hilariously isn't as survivable as Space Marine infantry when doing 9th edition things, and the board is small enough that transports are not necessary, or cost-effective, for a lot of smallish, elite units that will be on the point turn 2 anyway. For an anecdote, I went from 4 laserbacks to 1 rhino without an appreciable loss in mobility.

Ork Battlewagons, on the other hand...

SM speeder and mario karts are both good. Rhinos and razorbacks are also good. Flyers definitely good. Dreads of course amazing.

Most of those have xenos/chaos counterparts that are less effective or actually the exact same models and yet considered good if not even excellent.

Impulsor carrying a valuable unit that needs a ride is another example of a good SM vehicle.

SM vehicles are overshadowed by some heavy infantry SM dudes that are absolutely overpowered. Avoid those primaris/gravis dudes and you could still get a very powerful SM army, also including vehicles.

Mariokarts are bikes not vehicles

But I'd agree on speeder especially the land speeder storm particularly in BA builds

U02dah4 wrote:
Mariokarts are bikes not vehicles

True, my mistake. It's actually GW's mistake and that kart would be great even with the vehicle keyword .

Good news the anti vehicle secondary has been nerfed so vehicles got a big boost.

Vehicles, except dreads, still suck, though. I cant believe that a razorback with twin LC is still less expensive than a predator annihilator. They are still pretty much identical, except the razorback is a transport, and has 1 less wound.

Isn't the Dakka Boat with dual las still a good anti-tank platform for the cost?

 p5freak wrote:
Vehicles, except dreads, still suck, though. I cant believe that a razorback with twin LC is still less expensive than a predator annihilator. They are still pretty much identical, except the razorback is a transport, and has 1 less wound.

That makes a razorback a good vehicle though, don't you think? To be fair a full laser predator has twice the firepower of a razorback for just +50 pts (unless something changed with the new FAQ) so they're far from being pretty much identical; there's no reason to bring a predator without its sponsons.

I always bring 3 razorbacks (with twin assault cannon though) with my SW, and so far my "firstborn only" army never really disappointed me in this edition, even against armies with better ratings. Truth is, pretty much any possible SM list, created with some sense, is at least viable in any realistic meta that isn't a tournament environment.

 Blackie wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Vehicles, except dreads, still suck, though. I cant believe that a razorback with twin LC is still less expensive than a predator annihilator. They are still pretty much identical, except the razorback is a transport, and has 1 less wound.

That makes a razorback a good vehicle though, don't you think? To be fair a full laser predator has twice the firepower of a razorback for just +50 pts (unless something changed with the new FAQ) so they're far from being pretty much identical; there's no reason to bring a predator without its sponsons.

That makes a razorback a little less sucky than a pred. I would never bring a quad las pred, because when it dies you lose four LC.

Just because spamming heavy infantry gives you a leg up over fielding vehicles, that doesnt mean that the vehicles are useless. Aint the vehicles fault if marine infantry models are OP.

Not everyone enjoys a "game performance before anything else" list. Some actually build their lists to include models they think look cool and make sense to include in a mechanized, mobile army. Crazy, I know.

 tauist wrote:
Just because spamming heavy infantry gives you a leg up over fielding vehicles, that doesnt mean that the vehicles are useless. Aint the vehicles fault if marine infantry models are OP.

Not everyone enjoys a "game performance before anything else" list. Some actually build their lists to include models they think look cool and make sense to include in a mechanized, mobile army. Crazy, I know.

Exactly this. The word "dead" is flat out wrong in connection of several SM vehicles. Simply, the most SM OP list is created by spamming heavy infantries.

Like others have said, it depends on the vehicle. For the most part - the vast majority - yeah, dead as a doornail. Repulsors, Impulsors, Repulsor Executioners, Predators, the anit-flyer tanks, and Land Raiders are pretty much out. The Primaris vehicles in particular are hurting w/out Fly, and the Repulsor chassis (in both forms) is very much over-costed.

Flyers? Depends. Stormraven? Probably dead. Too many points. Storm Talon? Not sure what you get from this that you can't get more efficiently from other, better units (and this comes form someone who tends to put one or two Storm Talons in every list he makes!), the Stormhawk? I've seen some people use them to good success but it's a pretty specific build.

Dreads are good again though, so that's good!

I don't know about the 9th meta as I haven't been able to play a single game since COVID started but if SM vehicles are too fragile I'd consider outflanking them (or placing them in reserves or whatever it's called). Outflank a Gladiator Valiant, bring it in T2 and something almost has to die after unloading 4 lascannon and 4 multimelta shots. After things have hopefully normalized after mass vaccination campaigns I'm considering doing that with 1 (or hopefully 2) Land Speeder Thunderstrikes (the one with the lastalon thing) in a 1000 pt list while using Primaris infantry as an anvil for the Speeder hammer.

Saw this earlier in the thread. They aren't OP but they are "okay"...No - they are quite worse than that.

Space marine vehicals are flat out some of the worst units in the game.

Landspeeders are "okay"
Impulsors "okay"
Stalkers/vindis are "okay"

A few flyers are "okay"

The rest are absolute trash. Paying 20% more than other "okay" options in other armies for very little advance. Also might be fixed when codex come out but not receiving buffs from characters makes already bad units even worse.

Now...redemptor dreads are a different story. I might even go as far as to say that are top teir units in the whole of 40k. That being said - almost every army has units at this teir...so it is fine. It has a weakness. AP-5 blows it off the table. That is a HUGE weakness. Anyone denying it has no business making balance discussion.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pandabeer wrote:
I don't know about the 9th meta as I haven't been able to play a single game since COVID started but if SM vehicles are too fragile I'd consider outflanking them (or placing them in reserves or whatever it's called). Outflank a Gladiator Valiant, bring it in T2 and something almost has to die after unloading 4 lascannon and 4 multimelta shots. After things have hopefully normalized after mass vaccination campaigns I'm considering doing that with 1 (or hopefully 2) Land Speeder Thunderstrikes (the one with the lastalon thing) in a 1000 pt list while using Primaris infantry as an anvil for the Speeder hammer.

I think I will just outflank 3 attack bikes for roughly a 100 point discount. Or even 3 land speeders.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Saw this earlier in the thread. They aren't OP but they are "okay"...No - they are quite worse than that.

Space marine vehicals are flat out some of the worst units in the game.

Landspeeders are "okay"
Impulsors "okay"
Stalkers/vindis are "okay"

A few flyers are "okay"

The rest are absolute trash. Paying 20% more than other "okay" options in other armies for very little advance. Also might be fixed when codex come out but not receiving buffs from characters makes already bad units even worse.

Now...redemptor dreads are a different story. I might even go as far as to say that are top teir units in the whole of 40k. That being said - almost every army has units at this teir...so it is fine. It has a weakness. AP-5 blows it off the table. That is a HUGE weakness. Anyone denying it has no business making balance discussion.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pandabeer wrote:
I don't know about the 9th meta as I haven't been able to play a single game since COVID started but if SM vehicles are too fragile I'd consider outflanking them (or placing them in reserves or whatever it's called). Outflank a Gladiator Valiant, bring it in T2 and something almost has to die after unloading 4 lascannon and 4 multimelta shots. After things have hopefully normalized after mass vaccination campaigns I'm considering doing that with 1 (or hopefully 2) Land Speeder Thunderstrikes (the one with the lastalon thing) in a 1000 pt list while using Primaris infantry as an anvil for the Speeder hammer.

I think I will just outflank 3 attack bikes for roughly a 100 point discount. Or even 3 land speeders.

Just to be clear, bad compared to Marines isn't bad compared to, say, Tau. Or GSC. Or TSons.

Marines complaining about their vehicles make me laugh.
Literally any xenos would LOVE those vehicles (and the not-a-vehicle-for-some-dumb-reason ATV)

Does no one even care about Thunder cannons or do they not get "vehicle" keyword? Also - Whirlwinds are still great non-LOS dakka for the cost...

 Xenomancers wrote:

Now...redemptor dreads are a different story. I might even go as far as to say that are top teir units in the whole of 40k. That being said - almost every army has units at this teir...so it is fine. It has a weakness. AP-5 blows it off the table. That is a HUGE weakness. Anyone denying it has no business making balance discussion.

I don't disagree with your point in general, though claiming that AP-5 weapons are some kind of huge weakness seems funny to me. There really aren't that many AP-5 weapons in the game, and the most that I can think of are from the same codex as the Redemptor.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Now...redemptor dreads are a different story. I might even go as far as to say that are top teir units in the whole of 40k. That being said - almost every army has units at this teir...so it is fine. It has a weakness. AP-5 blows it off the table. That is a HUGE weakness. Anyone denying it has no business making balance discussion.

I don't disagree with your point in general, though claiming that AP-5 weapons are some kind of huge weakness seems funny to me. There really aren't that many AP-5 weapons in the game, and the most that I can think of are from the same codex as the Redemptor.

I made a list back in 8th. Notably, this was BEFORE Doctrines, so you can add any AP-4 or better Marine weapon, though they might already be there due to Storm of Fire.

Find it here.

The negative effect on vehicles has been progressively getting to this point since the change to game mechanics with 8th edition. in previous editions you had to use dedicated AT weapons to deal with heavy armor. with the changed to AP- weapons and d+ damage output. it created the effect of making mid-range anti-infantry weapons with high rates of fire far more able to kill vehicles than the dedicated anti-vehicle weapons. 9th edition has exponentially increased this because of the damage output increase of most weapons.

This has made nearly every vehicle in the game less useful, aside from dreads and throw away transports, than using massed infantry especially SM heavy infantry with 2-3 wounds each

Always love reading posts like this......

First off, always ask if you want to know about Tournament Level or Casual play because 40k Casual plays nothing like a tournament.

Tanks are awesome and do a variety of things in a regular game. The best thing about SM tanks is that they are fun.

Almost everything is fun to use and play with if you are not playing Tournaments. If you want to play Tournament level then there are very few things you can use from any army in the GW line.

Never build a fun/flavorful list for Tourneys....always build elite spam lists that give you a numbers edge.

Couldn't disagree more lots of players take weak/fluffy lists to tournaments. Probably a third of each tournament. The great thing about Swiss is it sorts you into opponents at your level. Lose 3 games your playing players who also lost three games.

Sure you won't win the event with such a list and nor should you but most people attend to have fun not to win

In a normal season I play 10+ events and I am the only ITC player to field the elucidean starstriders and in an 8th ITC event to prove my point. I also ran an ambul on a separate occasion. You can still get decent performances with such units if you play well enough.

It sounds like the above commentator has to win


Casual by comparison is pot luck I bring a non competative list so do you my version of non competative is completely different to yours you get squished or vice versa. But it does give the have to wins an excuse to moan when they lose.

Isn't the Dakka Boat with dual las still a good anti-tank platform for the cost?

For the cost? Absolutely not. See Eradicators ...

Same thing for the suggestion of outflanking the Gladiator variant... why? Why would you do that when marines have half a dozen ways to achieve the same thing at way fewer points? Sure, if you’re set on specifically using that tank because you like it - then that IS a good use for it IMO, but know that you’re sinking just shy of 300 points into something that’s likely going to be a suicide unit at that point.


I have a theory that you might be able to do something with a triple Reaper list due to sheer weight of dice, but I haven’t gotten it worked out yet and it’s likely a fools errand anyway. Lol

Will post if I get something from it though.

That's the entire point of the debate. Several vehicles aren't bad for their cost, they are even good or very good IF compared to other codexes. Instead if they compete with other SM units then no, they're not effective point wise, sometimes to the point that they are utterly overperformed by something else.

SM vehicles suffer too much from internal competition, but against other factions they'll do fine or very well.

I refuse to play imperium vs imperium since 3rd edition, not for a matter of balance, and for me SW vehicles are doing good. I can even field a LR crusader and get a fair game against a semi competitive list.

 p5freak wrote:
What SM vehicles are good, or even very good ? Any SM tank has no inv, and can easily get blasted off the battlefield in T1. The only useful vehicles are transports, because they protect troops, and help them move forward faster.

Context matters here. Individual vehicles may not matter as much as the way they are used.

3 Razorbacks in a Deathwatch army can bring some ranged firepower. They fit a role.

3 Repulsors are something I feared playing against with an 8th edition Chaos army. Always hard to crack.