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What I mean with the title is a bit convoluted to explain. Obviously I know what it is "meant" to mean in a literal sense - it's technology from the long-gone golden age of humanity - but what I am unsure about is the specific relationship to the DAOT in regards to the technologys current design that is in use.

There are 3 definitions of an STC - the database, constructor and blueprint or printout. DaOT colonists would have occasionally transferred blueprints for technology into other formats, with printouts and hard copies stored elsewhere are still found by the Imperium occasionally. It's this situation, along with technology that is just *still around* from then, that I'm not sure I've interpreted correctly.
The understanding of this that I've had for years is like this:

When the Imperium finds an STC for something and creatures a new weapon or vehicle or whatever using that, despite the claim of "It's an STC design" being technically true, the resultant thing is not an actual DaOT design. What they have is not what the printout was actually for.

The design given by the STC originally has been copied over and over and over again throughout the years and that's what enabled the printout to make it to the current time. This also has the effect of the design that's found having been copied so much that its changed over the years - data might be corrupted, it might be missing parts etc to the point that the design they get hold of ends up only superficially comparable to what the original design would have been, before all that copying and loss of quality. The fundamental aspects of it might still be maintained, and on the whole it might be something roughly comparable, but is it not something that is an actual DaOT design as such. The printout is then researched and interpreted over years and years, using the sometimes limited understanding of the technology available to the Mechanicus, and viewed within the bounds of their Dogma. They'll try to fill in the blanks and patch the holes in the blueprint in order to adjust for the thousands of years of corruption of the STC printout. The end result will be something that can arguably be claimed to be a DAoT design, but what they actually have might be so far off from what the design was intended to originally be that it just doesn't really come close. I remember the Castigator titan featured in one of the Grey Knights novels, where it was far, far more sophisticated than current Titans (it was more humanoid) and says the others are just badly made copies, for example.

Similarly to our interpretation of dinosaurs, or what happens if you take the skeleton of an animal and try to interpet what it would look like based on just that, you end up with something that is going to be hugely inaccurate and only barely resembles the actual thing. The Mechanicus can only guess using the information they have on what it was actually meant to create and how it was meant to work. They have a poor knock-off that might be nothing like an actual DAoT design. The STC for a Leman Russ tank for example may have been some highly advanced sensible tank design with automated gun turrets, but the data loss and interpretation of the Imperium resulted in that become some silly boxy nonsensical design with sponsons and no ground clearance.

The reason I am unsure about this now is because I read that there are Knights that have been locked in storage since the time of the DAoT...Implying that the knight design as we currently see it actually is as the DAoT design was originally. There are also a few weapons (like a Melta I think?) that are said to be from then, but I had assumed this was just a situation where the Imperium has been maintaining them for so long that they lost their original look and ended up being changed to something that matches how things are done now.

That doesn't really fit too well with the interpretation I had of it being as if the Imperium is claiming to build official Lego designs after they found some instruction booklets....but it turns out to the instructions they had were a fan-made design where someone had torn out a few pages and spilled coffee on it, and the Imperium has misinterpreted some of the instructions and didn't even have all the correct parts in the first place.

Part of the fluff for years (which has come up every time they introduced a new LR or predator variant) is that the Ad Mech vets designs, decides if they're 'true' STC designs or holy enough variants.

Basically there is a committee of STC sanctification, and canonically it can take centuries (or longer) to come to consensus.

But as to this bit:

The STC for a Leman Russ tank for example may have been some highly advanced sensible tank design with automated gun turrets, but the data loss and interpretation of the Imperium resulted in that become some silly boxy nonsensical design with sponsons and no ground clearance

Nope. The point of the STC system was to have simple practical designs that could be spat out on demand for any world and practically any material. The tanks (and Rhinos in particular) are simple boxes for this reason. They aren't 'devolved versions' of highly advanced tanks, they're simple things so that a new planet can get things up and running fast, and they're easily replaceable and can work with relatively low industrial capacity.


Knights and other more complicated tech are less likely to be STC designs, and more likely to be mothballed or maintained DAoT tech. Parts probably come off an STC constructor, but the more complicated stuff (Mind impulse unit, some weapons) may not.

STC is blanket term. They ranged from databases / expert systems where you told it what you needed and what raw materials you had and it would give you a blueprint, to 3D printer / nanoforge / replicator type systems that could magic things up.

The new Necromunda Van Saar book "House of Artifice" apparently has stuff on STCs in it, but I've not read it yet.

Indeed.

STCs were included in/colony ships during man’s original expansion out into the galaxy.

Each, for its time, held the sum total of mankind’s knowledge (suggesting a unified species for once, which is interesting but by-the-by).

The idea was the colonists could then hit the ground running in terms of technology.

The actual STCs vary. Some (presumably, but not necessarily the earlier examples) simply provided the blueprints necessary to build whatever it is you need. Others included fabrication units. The most sophisticated would take in the parameters of the task in hand, the available resources, then design and build what it was you needed).

Clearly, that’s a very, very sophisticated device. They’d also have ensured a decent level of compatibility of technology when colonised worlds connected with each other.

Trouble is, they were a bit too sophisticated, especially the most advanced ones. Because when a given machine does all the work for you, beyond simply asking for what you need, technological know-how dips. Rinse and repeat a few generations, and societies could become wholly dependent upon the STC.

The Dark Age of Technology really began with the rise of the Men of Iron, sentient machines which eventually took umbrage at their de facto slavery, and turned on their masters.

What actually caused that, and how it spread? Who knows. It’s not clearly covered in the background. All we know, is that it happened.

During that tumultuous period, STCs were largely lost, with many destroyed. The question is who destroyed them. Men of Iron could be behind it, seeing it as the quickest way to gain advantage. It could have been the meagre survivors of those worlds, to ensure the Men of Iron never rose again.

Could be both. Could also be sheer attrition. And let’s not entirely rule out precision strikes by Xenos species, as the loss would certainly hit humanity hard (and it did).

Now it seems near certain that STCs played at least some role in the emergence of the Men of Iron. They either directly birthed them, or the schematics were disseminated around the various colonies, because robot workers certainly sound pretty handy to have around.

Now, we also know the Adeptus Mechanicum and the Mechanicum before them abhorred Abominable Intelliegence. Because they know what brought about the end of the Golden Age. Yet they clearly have no problem with close approximations of AI, such as Thrones Mechanicum, Machine Spirits for Land Raiders, and the programmed animal personality of Battle Titans.

Some see that as a gross hypocrisy. And perhaps it is. But the three set out above, and others similar I’ve not explicitly mentioned, are clearly of limited capacity. And all three are ultimately subservient to their crew, despite some ability for independent action.

Yet....those are all tried and tested. And I think the mystery of the STC, coupled to a partial awareness of the Dark Age is why we see the Ad Mech in particular be very, very cautious when it comes to recovered STC fragments.

You see, they can make an educated guess that Ambominable Intelligence arose from the STC database. But at what point? Was a single improvement to technology they do understand? Perhaps a slight increase in the processing capacity of the Land Raider STC was the first step? Maybe it was all down to a single, as yet unrecovered fragment?

This would also explain why they’re not at all keen on deviation from recovered and approved STC designs - because they know those most definitely didn’t trigger the DAoT, or Men of Iron.

Yes. They’re doing it by rote, but you can see the seeds of informed caution from way back when all the same.

And it’s why they’ll move heaven and earth to seize whatever STC fragment they can. It’s not just about hoarding knowledge for their own selfish purposes. It’s also to prevent some randomer unleashing the Men of Iron all over again.

Now, we also know the Adeptus Mechanicum and the Mechanicum before them abhorred Abominable Intelliegence. Because they know what brought about the end of the Golden Age. Yet they clearly have no problem with close approximations of AI, such as Thrones Mechanicum, Machine Spirits for Land Raiders, and the programmed animal personality of Battle Titans.

Some see that as a gross hypocrisy. And perhaps it is. But the three set out above, and others similar I’ve not explicitly mentioned, are clearly of limited capacity. And all three are ultimately subservient to their crew, despite some ability for independent action.

I've always wondered if the Ad Mech really know the difference, if there is a line and where it is.

How much is rote catechism and how much reasoned knowledge defines the line between 'Abominable Intelligence' and 'Machine Spirit.' And add servitors to the mix. They're convinced that AI can't come from living brains, but sometimes its not clear if that's true.

Heck, for some extreme examples of heavily converted Ad Mech people (including Cawl, but even more mainline Tech Priests), its entirely possible that they are more AI than 'person' as their upgrades go on.
Just because there might a couple brains in jars somewhere on the body frame (or trailing along) acting as data storage, it doesn't mean that the 'main processor' isn't purely machine.

You are right to view some (most?) STC's are incomplete or misinterpreted. The most famous example is that the Leman Rus was originally an STC for a type of tractor (the first real tanks were based on tractors too). Same is true with components of 40k tech (Plasma engines - STC - but their use in various machines, weapons, wasn't necessarily ever part of the of the STC). If STC's weren't corrupted/hard to interpret/etc., there would be no need for the Mechanicum.

Knights are a little more complex (as is the case with Titans). The core vehicle, the most advanced components all predate DAoT, but again, the modern versions are effectively bastardized forms. They include all sorts of add-ons either due to a failure to understand the tech or an attempt to "improve it". (MOAR weapons!!!) I think a good parallel can be found in early medieval attempts to mimic Roman arches and domes. It was common for them to add "support" buttresses and columns (sometimes to preexisting Roman/Byzantine buildings) because they couldn't conceive of any other way to support large stone structures. As it turns out, many such attempts to support the buildings weren't necessary and didn't actually achieve anything.

Voss wrote:

Now, we also know the Adeptus Mechanicum and the Mechanicum before them abhorred Abominable Intelliegence. Because they know what brought about the end of the Golden Age. Yet they clearly have no problem with close approximations of AI, such as Thrones Mechanicum, Machine Spirits for Land Raiders, and the programmed animal personality of Battle Titans.

Some see that as a gross hypocrisy. And perhaps it is. But the three set out above, and others similar I’ve not explicitly mentioned, are clearly of limited capacity. And all three are ultimately subservient to their crew, despite some ability for independent action.

I've always wondered if the Ad Mech really know the difference, if there is a line and where it is.

How much is rote catechism and how much reasoned knowledge defines the line between 'Abominable Intelligence' and 'Machine Spirit.' And add servitors to the mix. They're convinced that AI can't come from living brains, but sometimes its not clear if that's true.

Heck, for some extreme examples of heavily converted Ad Mech people (including Cawl, but even more mainline Tech Priests), its entirely possible that they are more AI than 'person' as their upgrades go on.
Just because there might a couple brains in jars somewhere on the body frame (or trailing along) acting as data storage, it doesn't mean that the 'main processor' isn't purely machine.

That is indeed the question. And it’s big one, too.

As presented in the background, it’s entirely arbitrary to our eyes. And it might simply be that arbitrary in truth.

I think the important distinction to bear in mind that the higher you move up the echelons that exist, the more actual knowledge you’re exposed to. So whilst the majority do it by rote, the same isn’t necessarily true of the rest of their culture. It could be the head honcho is fully aware and informed. And so they can make properly informed calls.

I've always thought of the AdMech as being a cult similar to scientology. The higher up a person is, the more factual info they have on the whole thing. Their responsibility is twofold: Ensuring knowledge and understanding of technology is controlled so as to keep most of the staff ignorant to how to actually dev new stuff (there are simply too many idle minds in the ranks of AdMech), and secondly to make sure that any AI-related/other designs are safe to actually start producing. Production of an item is a big deal, as mostly everything needs to be mass-produced in vast quantities, over a very long period of time. It's not the same as current tech which only aims to exist for a year or two - many designs have to stand the test of time, from hundreds to thousands of years of production runs.

Original STC's probably had very simple and functional goals, and the techincal paradigms they use (innovative application of knowledge of physics, mechanics & electronics) can of course be applied to other systems & devices. Like the documentation Arkham Land found enabled him to design the Land Raider and the Land Speeder; These STC's could be considered "beneficial knowledge".. But then again, if someone found documentation to algorithms which enable machine learning to create a "conscious", brain-like cogitator algorithm, this sort of STC would indeed be very dangerous and even if the practical application of that code was a housemaid robot who could proactively keep the house tidy by monitoring the accumulation of dirt etc, such information could be applied to very dangerous things. So the lower tier techpriests are kept ignorant, if they find such docs they dont understand them and hand over such docs to their superiors who, after studying them, might very well present altered versions of such documentation while hoarding the original designs somewhere under lock and key..

So yes, while it is said the stuff comes from STC's, I've always thought of STC's being sort of patents which the more scientifically talented AdMech apply to making new products. These new products are then evaluated by even more prestigious members of the AdMech, who collectively decide what actually gets sanctioned, gets sanctioned with "a few modifications", or which are outright declared as unfit designs and rejected from production.

I never thought many of the og STC documents are used as-is; The imperium doesn't have need for automatic champagne-stirrers, or DVDs of fireplaces burning..

beast_gts wrote:
STC is blanket term. They ranged from databases / expert systems where you told it what you needed and what raw materials you had and it would give you a blueprint, to 3D printer / nanoforge / replicator type systems that could magic things up.

The new Necromunda Van Saar book "House of Artifice" apparently has stuff on STCs in it, but I've not read it yet.

I got a chance to read it, and it's pretty cool stuff. The cliffs notes version is the following:
-What the Van Saar has is a full STC device, with database, design, and 3D printer prototyping capabilities.
-It is, however, fundamentally flawed, with both itself and anything it designs emitting exotic particle radiation, known as the Rad-Phage. Huge effort goes into masking the radiation and spinning what couldn't be masked as run-off from the nearby spaceport reactors.
-Because of this, most of what Van Saar produces is based off of the STC in design but internally is no different from Imperial standard gear. Only the highest ranking members get to use the truly advanced (and intensely irradiated) tech produced by the STC itself.
-The STC grows and interlinks with surrounding systems. In the past, Van Saar has had to move the STC to various locations to keep it hidden. It has now rooted so tightly to its currently location that they don't believe it can be moved.
-It is unclear if House Helmawr knows about the STC itself, or just that the Van Saar have some secret crazy good tech, but in either case, he does a spectacular job of keeping the Greater Imperial institutions out of Necromunda's busy. For Van Saar, that means paying off, misdirecting, or otherwise removing any AdMech presence that could lead to them investigating the Clan House.

I imagine stc technology started as standardized, then was adapted locally as humanity spread. So stc 9000.0 gave birth to many versions with no way of standardizing, versions 9000.1. As stated by others, tech priests with the right clearance can try to determine the safety of the device. Let us never forget the contagion of Ganymede for what can happen if we just fire it up.

I believe we've actually been released an image of the full stc system Van Saar has. It's the size of a building, so definitely not a blueprint.

The STC is the thing at the center. Everything around it is known as the Chamber of Light and acts as security and shielding. We knew it wasn't a blueprint based on House of Artifice, as I mentioned a little higher-up, but I did forget that this picture was in the book and made it so clear.

jareddm wrote:
The STC is the thing at the center. Everything around it is known as the Chamber of Light and acts as security and shielding. We knew it wasn't a blueprint based on House of Artifice, as I mentioned a little higher-up, but I did forget that this picture was in the book and made it so clear.

Yes, the STC is described as embedding itself into systems and after centuries it has now so thoroughly embedded itself in its current location that House Van Saar is unsure if it can be moved again. I see it as taking over and gradually reshaping its environment to create those other layers.

This particular STC is more than just a passive system that does whatever its users want. It seems to act on its own, as it seemed to pre-emptively react in 996.M41 by offering up new weapons and wargear (presumably in anticipation of maybe the Great Rift opening).

It is interesting that Van Saar for all of their talk of being more enlightened, essentially recreate the Cult of the Machine God just in different form, based on how close one is to the STC.

jareddm wrote:
The STC is the thing at the center.

That just happens to look like the Van Saar House logo...

Iracundus wrote:It is interesting that Van Saar for all of their talk of being more enlightened, essentially recreate the Cult of the Machine God just in different form, based on how close one is to the STC.

Indeed. It's almost the inverse actually. The run-of-the-mill Van Saar believe in proper technical know-how and scientific method. But the closer one gets to the STC, the more they start to believe, "Dude...this thing is legit magic."

beast_gts wrote:

jareddm wrote:
The STC is the thing at the center.

That just happens to look like the Van Saar House logo...

Or that the Van Saar logo looks more like an STC Though I believe their actual symbol is known as the Spider-Skull.

jareddm wrote:

Iracundus wrote:It is interesting that Van Saar for all of their talk of being more enlightened, essentially recreate the Cult of the Machine God just in different form, based on how close one is to the STC.

Indeed. It's almost the inverse actually. The run-of-the-mill Van Saar believe in proper technical know-how and scientific method. But the closer one gets to the STC, the more they start to believe, "Dude...this thing is legit magic."

beast_gts wrote:

jareddm wrote:
The STC is the thing at the center.

That just happens to look like the Van Saar House logo...

Or that the Van Saar logo looks more like an STC Though I believe their actual symbol is known as the Spider-Skull.

On the Van Saar inverse concept.....]

1. It’s a cracking observation.

2. It replicates, after a fashion, what I said earlier about the dangers of STC or equivalent technology. The more you rely on it, the less knowledge is actually passed on beyond “press that, speak here, collect your goodies till 6”.

One actually wonders if the societies that weathered the DAoT best included a fair number that never truly nor wholly relied upon the STC for their technological needs?

I dont know if this help, but I think of STCs like GW's instruction manuals for building models. You can go the way the booklet tells you to, or you can mix parts up, or kit-bash from different kits (but kit-bashing will get you a mechanicus-action lawsuit if you dont wait 1 to 10 centuries for your design to be made official)

The original point of the STC in the fluff was that STC databases contained the sum of all human knowledge and could be taken by anyone to new worlds and connected to fabricators to create what ever the colonists of those new worlds needed. But most of humanity did not have the ability to replicate the science the underpinned the technology and could not recreate it. The men of iron smashed up pretty much all of the STC devices leaving humans to maintain a level of tech the could only build and use but not re create or innovate. When most of humanity was cut off from earth planets were left to the mercy of what ever remaining working STC technology they had, some planets had lots such as the technocracy encountered by Horus and some had nothing which is why many planets receeded to a feral status.

But humanity can now only make what is in those STC designs and nothing more because they don’t understand how it works. Time was that it was impossible to make new terminator armour which is why the suits of armour were worshiped as holy relics. The religion of technology worship prevented innovation because only technology created during the golden age was permitted by dogma. Anything not in an STC was heretical.

There was a story about 2 space marine scouts that were made planetary governors because they found a new STC for a type of combat knife.

But GW has contradicted this many times in an attempt to have their cake and eat it (he whispers primaris)

mrFickle wrote:
The original point of the STC in the fluff was that STC databases contained the sum of all human knowledge and could be taken by anyone to new worlds and connected to fabricators to create what ever the colonists of those new worlds needed. But most of humanity did not have the ability to replicate the science the underpinned the technology and could not recreate it. The men of iron smashed up pretty much all of the STC devices leaving humans to maintain a level of tech the could only build and use but not re create or innovate. When most of humanity was cut off from earth planets were left to the mercy of what ever remaining working STC technology they had, some planets had lots such as the technocracy encountered by Horus and some had nothing which is why many planets receeded to a feral status.

But humanity can now only make what is in those STC designs and nothing more because they don’t understand how it works. Time was that it was impossible to make new terminator armour which is why the suits of armour were worshiped as holy relics. The religion of technology worship prevented innovation because only technology created during the golden age was permitted by dogma. Anything not in an STC was heretical.

There was a story about 2 space marine scouts that were made planetary governors because they found a new STC for a type of combat knife.

But GW has contradicted this many times in an attempt to have their cake and eat it (he whispers primaris)

It was a pair of Guardsmen that found the Knife STC, which was then issued to Space Marine Chapters

It’s also not clear whether it was man, Men of Iron, both or something else that trashed the original STC databases. It’s likely to be both, but who did the most damage is very much open to debate. Men of Iron had reason and motivation, as it would remove a planet or even system’s access to high end weapons. Man had reason and motivation to prevent the Men of Iron ever rising again, and possibly being produced in the first place. Other fates could also be down to mankind’s psychic awakening, and the resultant fallout. It’s also entirely possible there was no particularly concerted effort to destroy them, and they’re just another casualty of a galaxy spanning war. After all, given their importance, they’d like be held in centres of government. Strike at that strata of civilisation, and that’s the STC gone into the bargain.

Ultimately, the reliance upon them (not the concept or machines themselves) were man’s Achilles heel, for reasons already well covered.

Mankind can still very much innovate in terms of technology. That’s seen all over the Imperium, despite the Adeptus Mechanicus’ best efforts. But for something to enter truly mass production, STCs are relied upon, as they’re distinctly known quantities.

It’s also very telling that once a fragment is recovered, the Adeptus Mechanicus don’t just stick it into production. They first need to study it, to find out what it is, and what it does.

The combat knife STC study would’ve been completed in the Guardsmen’s life span because it’s not a machine. Provided the fragment was proven I corrupted, off they went.

But more complex ones? Keep in mind that Abominable Intelligence is bad. That much is completely agreed. But as to where a Machine Spirit crosses the line into Abominable Intelligence? Who knows. It’s not well recorded. Any newly recovered STC fragment for a vehicle could contain that initial step. So it needs to be very, very carefully studied. Because what would happen if a rogue Abominable Intelligence got loose on a Forgeworld? Could it be contained? If so, at what cost? Never mind the impact on the wider Imperium, what of the Mechanicus’ holdings?

This is why their Battle Automata are, ultimately, cyborgs. Sure only the smallest fragment of them is wetware, but cyborgs nonetheless.

I've always figured that a lot of items that are described as "newly-rediscovered STCs" are actually new inventions, but get called STCs to avoid charges of heresy. A bit like when your other half finds out about the new army you bought; "what, those? No, had them for ages!"

One reason for the relative lack of STC designs in the "modern" era is that most colonies wouldn't need the really top-end stuff. It doesn't matter if the system can tell you how to build a brand new fusion reactor or a starship if what your colony needs - and thus asks for, and takes copies of the plans for - are tractors, shotguns and prefab barns. And then a couple of centuries later after your colony planet is ravaged by Orks and Enslavers, well, the STC facility was blown up and all you've got left are those plans for tractors and barns that your granddad hid in the woods. the plans for some rayguns and a spaceship would be useful now, but it's too late.