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 aphyon wrote:
Well they were designed as an anti-chaos/demon force so most of their stuff worked against all chaos and some specifically against demons. (interestingly enough also against the eldar avatar as it is classified as a demon).

I guess I just felt like more of it should have been baked into the default abilities and daemonic infestation counter-penalty.

The GKs only in-built anti-daemon rule was that daemons had to always assault through difficult terrain to charge them. Everything else was upgrades and points down the drain in an all-comers list.

in 5th edition codexes bikes have toughness in bracket wich one we're suposed to use for prohammer ?

 Quentcat wrote:
in 5th edition codexes bikes have toughness in bracket wich one we're suposed to use for prohammer ?

Surely the higher number (should be 5)? The bike is a piece of wargear that gives the user +1 toughness. In 5th edition this note was moved from the codex to the core rulebook. It gives the user +1T for normal wound resolution but still counts as 4 for Instant Death.

The Prohammer rules don't appear to say anything about it so I would consider it an oversight and play following the original rules.

Me again with another question.in 7th edition there is a primaris psychic rules (if i understand correctly stuff get a free specific power if all of their powers is from the same dicipline).

Do we ignore this part ?

If yes: for dicipline included in codexes is the primaris power now "takeable" as normal like any other power in the list or do we just "erase" it ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aphyon wrote:

 Quentcat wrote:
Is there a way to play chaos knight or is it doomed with this rules set?

You can play them in our rule set, not sure about Mez's

you just need the 7th ed knights codex+chaos upgrades preferably from the 3.5 dex or imperial armor 13.

It seem the imperial armor 13 is only for the chaos titans not the chaos knights

 Quentcat wrote:
It seem the imperial armor 13 is only for the chaos titans not the chaos knights

Page 187 onwards - legacies of ruin.

A.T. wrote:

 Quentcat wrote:
It seem the imperial armor 13 is only for the chaos titans not the chaos knights

Page 187 onwards - legacies of ruin.

Oh yeah because they are vehicle, smart. I guess it can work if we ignore the "1 legacy of ruin per 1000 points" rule
Prohammer doesn't mention super-heavy are we supose to take the rules (damage table, move... etc) from the 7th rulebook ? without the hullpoints seem weird maybe we need to put them back just for super-heavies ?

Sorry again for the questions (i just started to play for real with the ruleset) but the rulebook seem to contradict itself about wound alocation on page 16 of the prohammer rulebook you can read:

-When a unit suffers more than one wound as a result of multiple attacks occurring at the same time, wounds are allocated to models that are able to be hit one-by-one, until all wounds have been allocated.
-Once wounds are allocated, models may be able to take a saving throw.

So we alocate wound before doing the save ok got it
But then it say page 18:

UNSAVED WOUNDS: Each failed saving throw results in an UNSAVED WOUND that the unit suffers. Unsaved wounds may be allocated to ANY model in the unit, even those that did not take a saving throw and/or were not a model eligible to receive an attack.

So wait why did you assign wound before saving if you disregard the prior assignement to put the wound wherever you want ?

But then again page 37 before the saving rolls:

-The target unit’s owner allocates wounds to HITTABLE MODELS. Each hittable model must be allocated a wound before any other hittable model is allocated a second wound (and so on until all wounds are allocated).
-Any specific shot and resulting wound can be allocated to any hittable model in the unit.

To say in the same page right below than basically you can apply then wherever and even worst:

Unsaved wounds must be applied to already wounded models first

but it contradict the part about having to put at least one wound to everybody before having the ability to put a second wound on a unit

And then the mele part is the same. Is this in case of heterogenous save ? so the most of the unit have to save instead of taking the majority save value of the unit ? and then after the save roll it's the actual wound alocation. that's a little bit confusing since both instance are called "wound allocation". Or maybe i'm totally missing itµ

edit:
Oh yeah and unrelated with wounds but if you kill every model in contact with an opponent units is the leftover of the unit still considered engaged ? since they're not in base contact nor at 1inch of a friendly unit in base contact anymore

So wait why did you assign wound before saving if you disregard the prior assignement to put the wound wherever you want ?

So this difference is intended and draws from a few different edition's approach to wound resolution.

Basically, you do the first step (assign wounds to hittable models) and roll saving throws to determine how many total wounds the unit suffers (i.e. total unsaved wounds).

The unsaved wounds can then be allocated to any models in the unit (hittable or not), with the caveat that already wounded models must take the wound first.

The reason for this comes down to a few things:

#1 is basically to give the defender flexibility to decide which models they want to keep alive, which is pertinent when you have models with all sorts of different equipment running around. A few older editions basically said "remove whatever you want" representing a model with a special weapon that dies (for example) having its weapon picked up by a squad mate or whatever.

#2 This diminishes the fiddlyness of needing to be super careful with what model is placed exactly where (speeding the game up) and it also lets you batch roll wounds and saves more easily since you don't have to track what exact model to a wound/save and whether that exact model dies or not. We rarely every have to roll wounds and armor saves on a single model basis, which can otherwise bog things down tremendously.

#3 Also, it makes taking saves across a unit with mixed armor saves and/or where some models are in cover and others are not more meaningful. Some of the editions could result in the whole unit being in or out of cover based on what the majority of models was, which always felt irritating to me.

Oh yeah and unrelated with wounds but if you kill every model in contact with an opponent units is the leftover of the unit still considered engaged ? since they're not in base contact nor at 1inch of a friendly unit in base contact anymore

The respective units that are no longer in base-to-base are still locked in a melee engagement and a break test must still be taken for the losing side. If the break test passes (or it was a tie or units were fearless, etc.) they still remain "engaged" and will pile-in. See page 50 under the "Passed Break Tests" section.

Prohammer doesn't mention super-heavy

Yes - you're kind of on your own there We never use super heavies. For super heavies, maybe you can try doubling or tripling the # of structure points (page 21) they have.

in 5th edition codexes bikes have toughness in bracket wich one we're suposed to use for prohammer ?

Yeah, an oversight. I can fix that. If it's wargear, they get +1 T and the wargear usually notes it doesn't help towards instant death hits. In later editions, the bracket approach should be using the higher value in all cases except for resolving instant death hits.

Me again with another question.in 7th edition there is a primaris psychic rules (if i understand correctly stuff get a free specific power if all of their powers is from the same dicipline).

Do we ignore this part ?

Ignore the bonus power. Primaris powers are just treated as any other power in that discipline and can be selected as your power if desired.

Oh nice thanks for the quick answer. i guessed it was because of heterogenous save but i guess my main complain is the 2 phase having the same name of "allocate wound" when the first one is more of a "allocate wounding hit" kinda thing.

Yeah imma double or triple 0 structure =w=
Maybe a flat bonus to structure would work better. one of our player wanna play knights and i mean it's an entire faction of superheavy sooo

Oh yeah and outside of knights the rules doesn't say how many lords of war per detachement (and fortifications)

Oldhammer target selection rules often felt like a reaction to what didn't work in the previous edition

It's a tricky middle ground to find balancing extra complexity against simple but swingy rules.

5e 'anyone is a valid target' rule came off the back of being able to block your own LoS to snipe models for instance, but the change meant that you could kill a guy behind six layers of solid obstructions because a squad-made standing two feet away had a toe visible to the attacker.

On another note Grenades are only used to give an advantage during charge and to mele vehicle ?
Can't seem to find reference of them anywhere else in the book.
Do they have unlimited use as well ?

Sorry if my questions seem stupid i'm just trying to learn

 Quentcat wrote:
On another note Grenades are only used to give an advantage during charge and to mele vehicle ?

Appears so.
Throwing grenades wasn't a thing until 6th edition (outside of edge cases like the Black Templars 'holy orb' wargear).

So i guess the main post is outdated since it say in

Shooting phase:
Other shooting phase highlights:
"- Can throw grenades (1 grenade attack per unit)"

or this part mean the mele grenade attack to vehicle is during the shooting phase ?

 Quentcat wrote:
"- Can throw grenades (1 grenade attack per unit)"

It is listed as removed in one of the rule updates, I guess the main post wasn't also updated at the time.

i prefer our version of the grenade rule. we use it in our 5th ed rules-basic grenades are free for all factions as part of normal wargear-ignore extra costs in older codex and EVERY member of a squad within 8" can throw them. and they can be used in CC as well (as 5th ed originally allowed).

Specialized grenades like haywire have to be purchased as extra wargear but they can be thrown just the same.

From Space wolve 5th:

A rune Priest has two psychic powers from the list below, chosen when the army is picked. He can only use one power each player turn unless he has been upgraded to a Maser of the Runes, in wich case he can use up to two powers.

So even if technically the prohammer rules make the NOT "master of the runes" a mastery level 2 i should instead make it mastery level 1 right ?

 Quentcat wrote:
So even if technically the prohammer rules make the NOT "master of the runes" a mastery level 2 i should instead make it mastery level 1 right ?

It is common for psykers to have multiple 'known' powers, or none at all but the option to buy some or all from an extended list.

As a general rule they are all mastery level 1 unless their rules or wargear otherwise state that they can use more than one in a turn.

A.T. wrote:

As a general rule they are all mastery level 1 unless their rules or wargear otherwise state that they can use more than one in a turn.

Yeah I guessed the prohammer rules of being based on the number of know spell were weird, probably because of older editions

On another note I actually found that in the black crusade campagn book (the number 1 traitor's hate) you have the chaos knights .... well one knight at least... and they don't have any rules around moral lost instead their only things is having and being favorite enemy against imp knight but eh ... it's something

 Quentcat wrote:
.... well one knight at least... and they don't have any rules around moral lost instead their only things is having and being favorite enemy against imp knight but eh ... it's something

The original forgeworld rules are still floating around on the net on scribd and probably the internet archive - Chaos_Knight.pdf from 2015.

Knock 50 points off the paladin if you wanted to trade the battle-cannon and one of the heavy stubbers for a thunderstrike gauntlet, as per the old renegade knight points costs.

I looked at the campaign rules it's obviously WiP with some empty parts. Still look very good so we're gonna try
(harlequin not having HQ make them weird to integrate to the campaign rules)

Except... The battle scars for monsters seem insaleny debilitating. Not on part with the battle scars from others type of units. Like minus 1 to both WS AND BS? Removing most of the special keywords? Having 50% chance of taking double damage???

Basicaly every battle scars is a ruined stats one way or another instead of being fun gimmicks like for the other units.
We're going to think about new ones with my group. I'll share when we find cool ones

Unrelated but... It gonna seem stupid... But how do you know if a vehicle is a tank for tank shock? And skimmers tank??
And if an ork trukk isn't a tank that mean you can't even drive over people with it right?

 Quentcat wrote:
I looked at the campaign rules it's obviously WiP with some empty parts. Still look very good so we're gonna try
(harlequin not having HQ make them weird to integrate to the campaign rules)

Depending on what editions of rules you are playing there is the Citadel Journal 39 harlequins list, with updates in Citadel Journal 44.
(3rd edition rules)

 Quentcat wrote:
Unrelated but... It gonna seem stupid... But how do you know if a vehicle is a tank for tank shock? And skimmers tank??

It will list 'tank' under their unit type in the army list entry.

Some skimmers are (i.e. the wave serpent) while others arn't (i.e. the viper). Trukks need the reinforced ram upgrade.