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Has it occured to anyone else that some of a space marines abilities are pretty useless in actual military combat?

Spitting acid? In a tactical combat situation where you're exchanging full autofire with enemy forces? Doesn't seem too useful.

Learning memories from eating something? Again, not too useful in a firefight.

Getting darker skin to protect against harsh sunlight and low radiation? When you're wearing full armor?

Ok, I get that a lot of these abilities are useful in non tactical situations, like if marines are waging a guerilla type campaign on an enemy held planet for a time. But a lot of them are not useful in actual combat.

Since the infallible and omniscient emperor of man gave marines these abilities they must be useful in some ways, which does hint that there's a lot more to a marine than just his performance in a firefight.

What does anyone else think of some of a marines abilities that seem pretty pointless when you're in a squad exhanging fire with a larger enemy force?

A water canteen is pretty useless in a firefight. So is a shovel, unless you're a Krieger. But they do have a benefit to a military campaign on the whole, even if they don't make a soldier better at shooting or stabbing something.

A lot of the marine abilities are about extended operation without support, which is suuuuper valuable, just not on the table top. Like, soldiers that can march for days without sleeping, eat local flora and fauna instead of carrying rations, gather intelligence from corpses, hibernate in waiting for extraction. Super useful stuff for long deployments and providing extra operational capability.

I'm thinking that details like this are of more value when writing fiction.
Or when writing/playing games focused on different, more individualized scales of action (Kill Team, Inquisitor, RPGs, maybe PC games) than what the general 40k game represents.

 Matt Swain wrote:

Spitting acid? In a tactical combat situation where you're exchanging full autofire with enemy forces? Doesn't seem too useful.

Learning memories from eating something? Again, not too useful in a firefight.

1. 40k isn't practical in any sense, and has a lot of ongoing melee. In this sense, that would be a way to gain an edge on a foe. Plus we need an excuse not to wear helmets.
2. You can duck behind cover to do this, and we need an excuse not to wear helmets.

Actually your point with the skin is another way we have an excuse not to wear helmets. Gotta protect that bald head somehow.

Ok, see i was not dumping on these, I was saying they had non battlefield applications.

The thread was supposed to be about marines having missions and effects that were not directly related to combat, as a reply to the 'marines don't make sense' arguments.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Ok, see i was not dumping on these, I was saying they had non battlefield applications.

The thread was supposed to be about marines having missions and effects that were not directly related to combat, as a reply to the 'marines don't make sense' arguments.

If that was your goal, you shouldn't call your thread "Useless Marine Abilities?" and start it off by saying, "Has it occured to anyone else that some of a space marines abilities are pretty useless in actual military combat?"

Power of the Limelight: magically distract GW corporate, delaying and side lining development of out of date ranges.

Learning memories from eating a brain. That has huge tactical potensial. Just hunt down someone high enough up in the chain. And then you know all the opponents plans. How many troops there are. Where they are stationed. What their battleplan is. The tactical potensial of this is huge.

You'll have to suspend disbelief to an extent for this sci-fi universe but also you've missed the point with those kinds of abilities. They flesh out a sub-species' characteristics but just because they have a non-military function, doesn't mean they are useless.

There are plenty of short stories where a marine's skin is actively helping them versus radiation. It is a passing sentence but helps in telling the story and show that they're different from the standard human.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Ok, see i was not dumping on these, I was saying they had non battlefield applications.

The thread was supposed to be about marines having missions and effects that were not directly related to combat, as a reply to the 'marines don't make sense' arguments.

If that was your goal, you shouldn't call your thread "Useless Marine Abilities?" and start it off by saying, "Has it occured to anyone else that some of a space marines abilities are pretty useless in actual military combat?"

Basically agree with this too.

 alextroy wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Ok, see i was not dumping on these, I was saying they had non battlefield applications.

The thread was supposed to be about marines having missions and effects that were not directly related to combat, as a reply to the 'marines don't make sense' arguments.

If that was your goal, you shouldn't call your thread "Useless Marine Abilities?" and start it off by saying, "Has it occured to anyone else that some of a space marines abilities are pretty useless in actual military combat?"

Ok, you may have noticed the question mark at the end of that sentence. It means i was not stating they were useless, I was asking if they were.

Now as i pointed out, in a full on firefight they may seem useless, but that's only one situation a marine operates in. I was asking what other circumstances they might be useful in.

 Niiai wrote:
Learning memories from eating a brain. That has huge tactical potensial. Just hunt down someone high enough up in the chain. And then you know all the opponents plans. How many troops there are. Where they are stationed. What their battleplan is. The tactical potensial of this is huge.

It’s also really useful for getting your troops a bunch of mental issues and a lot of confusing information, not to mention thoughts from even just other languages would be a huge jumble and once you start bring aliens in it’s probably a useless ability without highly specialised and trained units.

Probably better to let phychics do the same job on the battlefield, rather than risk marines behind enemy lines on it.

We don't know how it works, just that they can absorb memories.
So although it's possible this manifests as essentially narrated stories in the alien's own language, I find that unlikely.
More likely they gain the concepts which the marine's brain translates into its own language.

I mean, the fact that the emperor also fused marines' rib cages into solid plates is a useless ability in a firefight because it would prevent marines from ever growing to the age where they'd get into a firefight, because they would not be able to breathe and would, in fact, be dead.

Yeah the fusing ribs thing is a bit silly. good luck bending over I guess.
I sort of head canon that into layered 'plates' rather than actually fusing together.

Matt Swain wrote:Ok, I get that a lot of these abilities are useful in non tactical situations

I think you just answered your question there.

alextroy wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Ok, see i was not dumping on these, I was saying they had non battlefield applications.

The thread was supposed to be about marines having missions and effects that were not directly related to combat, as a reply to the 'marines don't make sense' arguments.

If that was your goal, you shouldn't call your thread "Useless Marine Abilities?" and start it off by saying, "Has it occured to anyone else that some of a space marines abilities are pretty useless in actual military combat?"

Yup, pretty much.

I still maintain one of the best strengths a Space Marine has is their general lack of fatigue (or extreme resilience to it). Long periods without sleep, fast healing, near-immunity to bleeding out: the strength of a Space Marine is amplified by being able to simply keep on going (hence why I love the Transhuman Physiology rule in Kill Team).

 Matt Swain wrote:
Has it occured to anyone else that some of a space marines abilities are pretty useless in actual military combat?

Spitting acid? In a tactical combat situation where you're exchanging full autofire with enemy forces? Doesn't seem too useful.

Learning memories from eating something? Again, not too useful in a firefight.

Getting darker skin to protect against harsh sunlight and low radiation? When you're wearing full armor?

Ok, I get that a lot of these abilities are useful in non tactical situations, like if marines are waging a guerilla type campaign on an enemy held planet for a time. But a lot of them are not useful in actual combat.

Since the infallible and omniscient emperor of man gave marines these abilities they must be useful in some ways, which does hint that there's a lot more to a marine than just his performance in a firefight.

What does anyone else think of some of a marines abilities that seem pretty pointless when you're in a squad exhanging fire with a larger enemy force?

They aren't pointless at all, because they can be extremely useful if a soldier have to survive in an hostile environment with his equipment lost (or damaged) or if he has to escape by the enemies, that are two possibilities far from remote in a battlefield; if you are interested, I suggest you to see the playlist Vintage Survival Films from the youtube channel Periscope Films.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Yeah the fusing ribs thing is a bit silly. good luck bending over I guess.
I sort of head canon that into layered 'plates' rather than actually fusing together.

Lexicanum states that "the rib cage will have been fused into a solid, bulletproof mass of interlocking plates", so you're on the money there. I was going to make a comment about the original lungs being replaced, but they just gain an extra one.

Apple fox wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Learning memories from eating a brain. That has huge tactical potensial. Just hunt down someone high enough up in the chain. And then you know all the opponents plans. How many troops there are. Where they are stationed. What their battleplan is. The tactical potensial of this is huge.

It’s also really useful for getting your troops a bunch of mental issues and a lot of confusing information, not to mention thoughts from even just other languages would be a huge jumble and once you start bring aliens in it’s probably a useless ability without highly specialised and trained units.

Probably better to let phychics do the same job on the battlefield, rather than risk marines behind enemy lines on it.

In the old Assault on Black Reach novel, we see Telion eat a Gretchin's brain to locate the Ork base. He doesn't really have any drawbacks from it, and purely from body language and sight, you can glean a lot of information - imagine watching a foreign film.
I think it's less reading thoughts and more memories, just the hijacking of the senses for that memory and sifting through to find the relevant stuff. Telion likely went for a Gretchin due to a shorter life span, and therefore less memories to sort through.

Thunder Warriors were the combat troops. Marines were the 'be ready for anything the Great Crusade throws at us" troops.

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, the fact that the emperor also fused marines' rib cages into solid plates is a useless ability in a firefight because it would prevent marines from ever growing to the age where they'd get into a firefight, because they would not be able to breathe and would, in fact, be dead.

i've always imagined it as overlapping plates instead of bones with spaces between them. That way when they breathe, the plates juste slide over each other while still being a "flat" surface.


something like this actually

 Matt Swain wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Ok, see i was not dumping on these, I was saying they had non battlefield applications.

The thread was supposed to be about marines having missions and effects that were not directly related to combat, as a reply to the 'marines don't make sense' arguments.

If that was your goal, you shouldn't call your thread "Useless Marine Abilities?" and start it off by saying, "Has it occured to anyone else that some of a space marines abilities are pretty useless in actual military combat?"

Ok, you may have noticed the question mark at the end of that sentence. It means i was not stating they were useless, I was asking if they were.

Now as i pointed out, in a full on firefight they may seem useless, but that's only one situation a marine operates in. I was asking what other circumstances they might be useful in.

Presentation is everything. If you want an intelligent discussion, as a positive question. Your first response to your thread won't be negative if it is titled, "Astartes Background Abilities" and the first thing you say is, "Space Marines have many abilities not represented on the 40K battlefield. Which do you think are useful in the 41st Millennium?"

It's like their "acidic salvia". We all know all saliva is acidic, but a marine with time can use his saliva to silently burn his way through objects. Imagine the surprise of a captor who foolishly imprison a space marine to find him a few minutes later sneaking up behind him after spiting repeatedly on the lock of his prison.

A fused ribcage would not actually make it impossible to breathe. You can breathe with just the diaphragm. Not necessarily a good idea for an unmodified human, but possible. A modified, more powerful diaphragm, or one assisted by additional abdominal muscles (which is how turtles and tortoises manage it IIRC), could easily overcome any loss in respiratory efficiency caused by the inability to move the ribcage.

Apple fox wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Learning memories from eating a brain. That has huge tactical potensial. Just hunt down someone high enough up in the chain. And then you know all the opponents plans. How many troops there are. Where they are stationed. What their battleplan is. The tactical potensial of this is huge.

It’s also really useful for getting your troops a bunch of mental issues and a lot of confusing information, not to mention thoughts from even just other languages would be a huge jumble and once you start bring aliens in it’s probably a useless ability without highly specialised and trained units.

Probably better to let phychics do the same job on the battlefield, rather than risk marines behind enemy lines on it.

You presume a lot. This is essentially a warrior cult recruiting child soldiers, and never correcting any of this as this is seem as a normal thing. In fact it is a great honor.

As far as how the fictional universe has treated it there seems to be really no side effects to eating said memories. And there are sideffevts to psyker. Mainly that things can go bad, and that they are very rare.

I do belive 8th edition space wolves had a stratagem that granted them CP when killing a character, representing eating the memory. Tyranids also have one for lictors and genestealers. So it is in fact quite usuefull at times to go bel down some nice slurpy brain protein.

I love that we can happily suspend disbelief that there would be some conceivable way to keep MEMORIES intact when fitting a brain-sized object through a mouth-sized hole, but it's difficult to conceive of organ transplants being able to viably grow in any category of human.

Y'know, like they can do in M2.

With regards to eating people, when I ran Deathwatch, basically their favorite organ was the omophaegia, so that's definitely a useful ability.

As I recall the marines didn't need to eat the brain of a local animal, just some part of it. Also I get the idea that they didn't get much more than an instinctive understanding of that animals environment, such as threats and dangers in it.

Years ago i tried to model a space marine in a generic RPG system and really had an issue with this implant. Some brilliant person suggested making it an ability that gave a bonus to survival rolls and skills in a particular environment, with the dependency of having to eat part pf a local animal to get it.

Of course the whole idea of absorbing memories thru ingesting the body of a creature is based on the old flatworm experiments that have long been debunked.

You keep talking about what does not work. Clearly it works. We have space marines doing it.

The acid spitting was specifically mentioned in the past as a means to escape imprisonment by dissolving bindings, locks, hinges, etc...

Some of the assumptions made rely on the SM never having to abandon their armor and on the actions being short in length.

As someone said above, the most powerful bit about SM is their endurance (both physical and mental). They are built to keep going/surviving even when they need to shed armor (due to wreckage), even with limbs shot away, even when captured, etc... Even without armor/supplies, solitary SM would be able to fend for themselves for years against hostile forces.

Given how efficient Astartes biology is, one does wonder if the Acid Spit thing is more a happy accident - after all, all the nasties would need to be used for something?

It’s also a nasty little surprise when gobbing in someone’s face.

To quote Eddie Catflap? “I’m not sighing. I’m idly collecting phlegm in the back of my throat. And when I’ve got enough, I’m going to gob on you”