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Hey all,

I'm playing hive cult. Which lets cult creed benefits fall back and shoot with -1. Because cult is special qnd and names only bikers and infantry this is a question which has come up. Can infantry units in a transport which fell back shoot out of the transport? Or are they gated to the actions of the transport?

They're affected by any restrictions that apply to the passengers. If the Transport has fallen back, then the passengers can't shoot.

That is correct. This specific example is in the new Rare Rules FAQ entry for Shooting While Embarked in Transports.

 Valkyrie wrote:
They're affected by any restrictions that apply to the passengers. If the Transport has fallen back, then the passengers can't shoot.

That is not what the FAQs are saying. If the transport made a Normal Move, Advanced, Fell Back or Remained Stationary this turn, embarked units are considered to have done the same when they make ranged attacks.

3. If the Transport model made a Normal Move, Advanced,
Fell Back or Remained Stationary this turn, embarked units
are considered to have done the same when they make
ranged attacks.

If the unit inside the transport has an ability which allows them to shoot after falling back, they can make use of their own abilities.

7. Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in
an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to
apply when they make ranged attacks.

The cult creed hivecult can shoot after falling back, with -1 to hit (its their detachment ability), so the embarked unit can do so.

You missed bullet point 8:

If a restriction applies to the Transport model, that same restriction applies to units embarked within it. For example, if the Transport model is not eligible to shoot with because it has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn, its passengers are not eligible to shoot with.

 alextroy wrote:
You missed bullet point 8:

If a restriction applies to the Transport model, that same restriction applies to units embarked within it. For example, if the Transport model is not eligible to shoot with because it has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn, its passengers are not eligible to shoot with.

And you missed attackers priority. The attacking model's rules take precedence.

ATTACKER’S PRIORITY
While resolving attacks, you'll occasionally find that two rules cannot both apply — for example, when an attacking model with an ability that enables it to always score a successful hit on a 2+ targets a model that has an ability that states it can only be hit on a 6+. When this happens, the attacking model’s rules take precedence.

 p5freak wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
You missed bullet point 8:

If a restriction applies to the Transport model, that same restriction applies to units embarked within it. For example, if the Transport model is not eligible to shoot with because it has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn, its passengers are not eligible to shoot with.

And you missed attackers priority. The attacking model's rules take precedence.

ATTACKER’S PRIORITY
While resolving attacks, you'll occasionally find that two rules cannot both apply — for example, when an attacking model with an ability that enables it to always score a successful hit on a 2+ targets a model that has an ability that states it can only be hit on a 6+. When this happens, the attacking model’s rules take precedence.

I don't know enough atm to say whether or not they can attack, but Attacker's Priority doesn't seem to apply here. The question is "can they attack", not "how to resolve said attack".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, I did some digging and I can tell you that yes, you can shoot out. Not because any of those rules that the rest are talking about, but because the Goliath Truck, which is the only Open-Topped vehicle available to the GSC, has the <Cult> keyword. This means it is also affected by the Hivecult detachment ability, which in turn mean that it can shoot after falling back with a -1, which means that those inside it who also have the <Cult> keyword can shoot when it has fallen back at a -1.

If you are instead referring to the Cult Chimera's Lasgun Array or the Goliath Rockgrinder's Cache of demolition charges, then no. Those vehicles do not have the <Cult> keyword or other ability allowing them to shoot after Falling Back and those weapons are part of the Vehicle's profile, not models Embarked on them, even if they require a unit to be Embarked to fire. If the vehicle is not Open-Topped (unless it has some other ability allowing Embarked units to shoot out of it), then Embarked units cannot shoot out of it.

Really guys, a quick look over the rules and Datasheets on Wahapedia told me all that. A little detective work could have saved a lot of time and argument.

 SergentSilver wrote:

Alright, I did some digging and I can tell you that yes, you can shoot out. Not because any of those rules that the rest are talking about, but because the Goliath Truck, which is the only Open-Topped vehicle available to the GSC, has the <Cult> keyword. This means it is also affected by the Hivecult detachment ability, which in turn mean that it can shoot after falling back with a -1, which means that those inside it who also have the <Cult> keyword can shoot when it has fallen back at a -1.

Really guys, a quick look over the rules and Datasheets on Wahapedia told me all that. A little detective work could have saved a lot of time and argument.

Sorry, they really cant because of this. But they can because their own detachment ability still works when embarked.

5. Unless specifically stated otherwise, the embarked unit is not affected by the abilities (including aura abilities) of any other unit, even if that unit is also embarked within the same TRANSPORT model.

The transport is any other unit, and they cant be affected by any abilities from any other unit while embarked.

This shooting from inside an open topped transport is still a mess. It was before, and it still is. This FAQ has done nothing positive. We now have rules directly contradicting each other.

 p5freak wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:

Alright, I did some digging and I can tell you that yes, you can shoot out. Not because any of those rules that the rest are talking about, but because the Goliath Truck, which is the only Open-Topped vehicle available to the GSC, has the <Cult> keyword. This means it is also affected by the Hivecult detachment ability, which in turn mean that it can shoot after falling back with a -1, which means that those inside it who also have the <Cult> keyword can shoot when it has fallen back at a -1.

Really guys, a quick look over the rules and Datasheets on Wahapedia told me all that. A little detective work could have saved a lot of time and argument.

Sorry, they really cant because of this. But they can because their own detachment ability still works when embarked.

What part of this is ambiguous to you? If he's using the Hivecult which gives all units with the <Cult> keyword the ability to shoot at -1 after they Fall Back, and both the Transport and the unit Embarked upon it have the <Cult> keyword, and thus the associated chosen Cult Creed ability, then they can both shoot at a -1 after falling back if using the Hivecult Creed.

THE HIVECULT: DISCIPLINED MILITANTS
The brothers and sisters of the Hivecult are no strangers to war. They fight in tight-knit military units, whether they hail from hive ganger cultures or the military organisations of the Imperium. Each is well drilled in the use of sidearms as well as repurposed industrial tools, and in battle they fight with an uncanny discipline that sees them triumph against the odds.

Each time a Morale test is failed for a unit with this Cult Creed, until the end of the phase, halve the number of models that flee that unit due to failed Combat Attrition tests (rounding fractions down). In addition, units with this Cult Creed can still shoot in a turn in which they Fall Back, but if they do so you must subtract 1 from their hit rolls in the Shooting phase of that turn.

The Hivecult ability does not exclude the Goliath Truck in any way, and the Goliath Truck has the <Cult> keyword which is replaced by the Hivecult keyword when this Cult Creed is chosen.

As previously stated:

3. If the Transport model made a Normal Move, Advanced,
Fell Back or Remained Stationary this turn, embarked units
are considered to have done the same when they make
ranged attacks.

and

7. Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in
an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to
apply when they make ranged attacks.

Therefore, since both units have the Hivecult Creed granting them the ability to shoot at a -1 to hit even after they Fall Back, both units can still shoot.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the unit Embarked didn't have that ability, it wouldn't be able to shoot even if the Transport did.

If the Transport did not have the ability to shoot, but the unit did, then I believe they still would not be able to shoot as I believe this takes precedence in this case:

If a restriction applies to the TRANSPORT model, that same restriction applies to units embarked within it. For example, if the TRANSPORT model is not eligible to shoot with because it has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn, its passengers are not eligible to shoot with.

Even if the unit embarked within could normally shoot when they Fall Back, I personally believe that this rule in the Core book overrides that as it specifically states that if the Transport cannot shoot due to having Fallen Back, the unit inside cannot shoot. There is no ambiguity or room for argument there in my mind. Unless a FAQ comes out explaining differently or I see evidence to the contrary elsewhere in the books, I will continue to believe that the RAW is the correct interpretation of the rules.

You're missing one crucial thing.

The Goliath truck has the <Cult> keyword, but it does not benefit from the Cult Creed.

This is because under the Cult Creeds rule it states as follows:

"All <Cult> INFANTRY and BIKER units with this ability gain a cult creed..."

GSC Cult Creeds don't apply to vehicles. Or purestrain genestealers...

Just follow the rules and apply the points from the FAQ.

Point 3 tells you embarqued unit counts as having realized the same movement as the transport (falling back on this scenario)

Point 7 tells you inherent Detachment abilities still affect embarqued units so Cult infantry could shoot after falling back

Then point 8 kicks in and says same restrictions from the Transport apply to embarqued units and provide the Falling back example as not being eligible under *Normal circunstances* but on this case the Detachment abilities allow the infantry units to still be eligible after falling back to shoot.

Now if you want to argue the point 8 it's a special rule over the normal falling back restrictions (wich is not as it's just an example of normal restrictions) and takes precedence over Cult Creed it's up to each one.

If point 8 doesn’t prevent the embarked unit from firing if the transport Fell Back, it wouldn’t include that as a specific example. After all, that would be adequately covered by point 3.

Also on Point 8, it doesn’t say that the unit counts as having fallen back. It just says they’re ineligible to shoot.

There isn’t any room to apply the cult ability for falling back and shooting when the unit doesn’t count as falling back and is, instead, just plain ineligible to shoot with.

Hey all Great discussion!

I played the game with the assumption that they could not shoot from inside the vehicle if it fell back.

I just disembarked them and shot that way.

if cult could stop being the only army whose vehicles get shafted out of Creeds that would be great.

dreadlybrew wrote:
Hey all Great discussion!

I played the game with the assumption that they could not shoot from inside the vehicle if it fell back.

I just disembarked them and shot that way.

if cult could stop being the only army whose vehicles get shafted out of Creeds that would be great.

*Laughs in Chaos Marines and Custodes*

 Valkyrie wrote:

dreadlybrew wrote:
Hey all Great discussion!

I played the game with the assumption that they could not shoot from inside the vehicle if it fell back.

I just disembarked them and shot that way.

if cult could stop being the only army whose vehicles get shafted out of Creeds that would be great.

*Laughs in Chaos Marines and Custodes*

Right? I mean my custodes should be able to do anything a space marine can do, and better. Yet they are worse when their selector switch is on full auto, and they forget how to shoot after falling back. Then again, if we were ever to leave combat, we would instantly become less effective.

i mean arent the custodes vehicles FW anyway?

Nope, Land Raiders are GW plastic, born and raised.

 Drakeslayer wrote:
You're missing one crucial thing.

The Goliath truck has the <Cult> keyword, but it does not benefit from the Cult Creed.

This is because under the Cult Creeds rule it states as follows:

"All <Cult> INFANTRY and BIKER units with this ability gain a cult creed..."

GSC Cult Creeds don't apply to vehicles. Or purestrain genestealers...

You are correct. I missed that part of the rules section and I apologize.

I do have to wonder why the Goliath Truck has the <Cult> keyword and not the other Vehicles though. Is there some other interaction with it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dreadlybrew wrote:
Hey all Great discussion!

I played the game with the assumption that they could not shoot from inside the vehicle if it fell back.

I just disembarked them and shot that way.

if cult could stop being the only army whose vehicles get shafted out of Creeds that would be great.

I just want to point out for future reference that unless there's another GSC specific rule that allows you to disembark after the Transport moved, you can't actually do that and that action was unintentional cheating.

TRANSPORTS AND RULES THAT COUNT AS REMAINING STATIONARY
Some rules allow a model to count as having Remained Stationary, even if that model has moved during its Movement phase. Even if a TRANSPORT model is subject to such a rule, embarked models still cannot disembark from that TRANSPORT model during the Movement phase if that TRANSPORT model has already moved, unless that TRANSPORT model (or the models embarked within it) have a rule that explicitly allows them to disembark after the TRANSPORT model has moved.

Units cannot disembark from a TRANSPORT model after it has moved, even if that TRANSPORT model is under the effects of a rule that lets it count as having Remained Stationary even if it has moved.

Oh they disembarked, then moved. not moved then disembarked

dreadlybrew wrote:
Oh they disembarked, then moved. not moved then disembarked

Ah, ok. It sounded like the other way around before.