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Made a deal with a dude at my LGS I’m giving him all of my mtg cards that he wants (I don’t play anymore and was there to sell what I could). He said he’d give me his 2kish points of Clan Skyrer or 2k points if khorne both fullly painted/assembled, but I don’t play AOS. I had been lookin into it and was fairly discouraged by the double turn being so swing heavy and the fact that there’s like 2 armies that destroy the meta Karadron Overlords and the Deepkin. I’ve watched many battle reps over the last few months on AOS and I think most only got to like turn 2 before it was concede or one person got the double turn and they shook hands right there. This kind of makes me not want to play it as that doesn’t seem fun? But none the less this is a deal I’m taking and both armies are ones I wanted to play as I like their aesthetic, but which one is a better starter army? I plan on buying and making my own army but this deal literally costs me no money and allows me to try the game to know if I’d like it, I’m just torn on which one seems more interesting/fun/strong. I don’t know the rules entirely but I have a good grasp on the basics.

Neither army are particularly beginner friendly. Both Skryre and Khorne, despite one being shirtless zug zug barbarians, are both intense on positioning and movement tricks to be the most effective, as well as intimate knowledge of the game.

This is of course, only if you're playing against competitive lists that are here to win and win hard.

Personally, I love playing Skryre. I think they're great fun, both when playing the serious business lists, and the lists where I let random chance really take the wheel and see where I go. For the latter type of list, I often end up killing more of my own army than the other player does.

Skryre requires defending your big guns through movement and screening with cheap defensive units, knowing target priority, appropriate buff ability placement, and some risk management with their various abilities that can be self-destructive, or highly destructive to the enemy.

Khorne requires more knowledge on buff placement and target priority, on top of maintaining units in certain positions where they can buff each other up. The biggest one being the Bloodsecrator banner. You never want your fighting models to be outside of it's aura, because the boon it gives is so damn important. You really can't succeed with Khorne if you just run headfirst without a plan and proper positioning.

About the double turn, and competitive metas and all that... It's really hard to say. You need to talk with your soon-to-be local group about what sort of games they like to play, if they play with the full rules (including double turn, ect.) For my local groups, both AoS and 40k, we use Facebook groups to recruit, but have active Discord/Whatsapp groups where we chat with eachother, share hobby painting, organize games, and sometimes have voice-call hobby hang-outs. I'm sure your local Warhammer group has some sort of Online presence too.

Battle Report channels have a vested interest in playing the game 'properly'. It may be a bit tin-foil hatty, but if they cut out 'bad rules' from their videos, they may not get their shiny early exclusive releases that pump up viewer numbers.

What are you getting in those armies model/unit-wise?
Just telling me 2k pts "Khorne" or "Scyre" doesn't say much. I can build good/mediocre/terrible lists out of both of those.....
You might be getting a deal. Or you might be getting junk.

How do the people you're going to game with play? Do you know? Have you asked them?
*Specifically, are they married to using the double turn mechanic?
*WHAT do they play? Are they Grand Tourney wanna-be's who only bring the hardest lists/combos? Or is there room for other, weaker, stuff?
*You're worried about Overlords & Deepkin warping the meta. OK. How likely are you to see those where you intend to play? Because if they aren't a thing on the tables where you're playing, then it doesn't really matter if they're tearing up You Tube channels & the tourney scene. If they are present, then you need to plan for them.

If I HAVE to pick one of these armies blind? Then I'll go with the Skaven.
Reason: Building even a half decent 2k list of rats is more expensive than building 2k pts of Khorne. And certainly more time intensive to paint.

Rahdok wrote:
Made a deal with a dude at my LGS I’m giving him all of my mtg cards that he wants (I don’t play anymore and was there to sell what I could). He said he’d give me his 2kish points of Clan Skyrer or 2k points if khorne both fullly painted/assembled, but I don’t play AOS. I had been lookin into it and was fairly discouraged by the double turn being so swing heavy and the fact that there’s like 2 armies that destroy the meta Karadron Overlords and the Deepkin. I’ve watched many battle reps over the last few months on AOS and I think most only got to like turn 2 before it was concede or one person got the double turn and they shook hands right there. This kind of makes me not want to play it as that doesn’t seem fun? But none the less this is a deal I’m taking and both armies are ones I wanted to play as I like their aesthetic, but which one is a better starter army? I plan on buying and making my own army but this deal literally costs me no money and allows me to try the game to know if I’d like it, I’m just torn on which one seems more interesting/fun/strong. I don’t know the rules entirely but I have a good grasp on the basics.

After almost 5 years of playing it... I cannot recommend it anymore. Frankly, try selling the rats.

Rahdok wrote:
Made a deal with a dude at my LGS I’m giving him all of my mtg cards that he wants (I don’t play anymore and was there to sell what I could). He said he’d give me his 2kish points of Clan Skyrer or 2k points if khorne both fullly painted/assembled, but I don’t play AOS. I had been lookin into it and was fairly discouraged by the double turn being so swing heavy and the fact that there’s like 2 armies that destroy the meta Karadron Overlords and the Deepkin. I’ve watched many battle reps over the last few months on AOS and I think most only got to like turn 2 before it was concede or one person got the double turn and they shook hands right there. This kind of makes me not want to play it as that doesn’t seem fun? But none the less this is a deal I’m taking and both armies are ones I wanted to play as I like their aesthetic, but which one is a better starter army? I plan on buying and making my own army but this deal literally costs me no money and allows me to try the game to know if I’d like it, I’m just torn on which one seems more interesting/fun/strong. I don’t know the rules entirely but I have a good grasp on the basics.

Most of my games can still go either way on round 4 or even 5(and that's in part due to double turns. Without it it would be similar to 40k and you know with　high accuracy who wins after seeing lists and knowing who goes first. Which in aos would be worse as you know from lists majority of times who goes first) . Double turn can be prepared and if you get it for round 2 you expose yourself to it on round 3 double turn which is way more powerful. All in all only time db has been issue has been when it comes from mega shooting/magic but that's symptom of bigger issue where shooting/magic taken to extreme breaks game. With mostly melee forces facing db is less of issue. Especially thanks to scenarios.

Yeah, double turn is a strong feature of the game, not a flaw.

Those who struggle when it happens aren’t planning for it. Those who depend on a double turn will struggle if they don’t get the opportunity.

Despite being pretty light on actual rules, the game mechanics themselves take time to get your head round, because of how things work.

For instance. Mass charging was always advisable in WHFB. Typically you got to strike first, often got charge bonuses, and with a good round of combat you could shatter your opponents line. When AoS dawned? Not so much, because of how you select units for combat. Whilst a charging unit might batter one of yours, you don’t have to strike back with the battered unit - you can pick an entirely different combat to resolve your side of first.

This means if your opponent has over extended, you’ve a chance to give a unit a pasting before it gets to swing. Depending on exactly who’s in combat with who, doing too many charges can be a detriment.

Going back to the double turn, it can be a good leveller for the game, as you can never count on your opponent getting it. Even if their army has been badly mauled, it’s an opportunity for them to get some momentum back.

None of these are design flaws. They’re all very deliberate. If a player just sulks over them, they’re not gonna get terribly far.

The lists are as followed - skaven: 2 arch warlocks , 3 engineers 1 bombardier , 16 acolytes , 6 stormfiends ,2 doom wheels , 5 warp fire throwers ,3 rattling guns, 1 warp canon , 1 drill team
Khorne - 20 blood reavers , 5 warriors ,mightly lord of khorne , khorgorath , Valkia , Bloodstoker , Blood Secrator, Exalted deathbringer, aspiring deathbringer, skull grinder and 2 slaughter priests

My group plays with it. My armies disproportionally benefit from double-turns, being heavy on shooting, magic, or both, while also playing against strong double-turn armies. I'm tired of winning on turn 2 because I have full freedom to blast away at the enemy army with magic and guns. I just don't take double turns when I have the choice. "Plan for it" is a gak mantra. You can't prepare for it against a lot of armies. Ironjawz, KO, Lumineth, Skaven, Tzeentch, FEC, Slaanesh, hell even CoS. Even the Khorne armies in my group will roll over everything, no matter how much you shoot yourself in the foot by sitting far in the back of your deployment zone, if they get two turns in a row. The only army you can properly insulate yourself from a double turn against in my group, is Nighthaunt. And 'c'mon. It's nighthaunt. Everything else, they're all well-built armies with either strong shooting, magic, or really high speed. Every single game I play against both Ironjawz players in my area, I have to sit in the back of my board edge, and pray that their 40" turn 1 movement in to a charge doesn't turn in to a double turn, so I can actually respond to having an entire orc army in my own deployment zone.

So, sure. Prepare for a double turn and hide in your deployment zone and have no board presence on later turns and pray for a turn 3 double turn for a chance to come back and win points. What a "strong" game feature.

Khorne selection is really bad to start playing with. You'll need more fighting units to make good lists, just having a lot of varied heroes won't do you much. You do however, have the important support pieces needed already. Slaughterpriests, Bloodstoker, Bloodsecrator, those 3 are good in any list. You'll need more daemons, reavers, warriors, and the more elite types of units though. Everything in this selection is classedas "Khorne Mortals." The book has a bit of a split, between the Mortal models and the daemon models. They tend to support their own kind better than the other, with exception of the Slaughterpriest and Bloodsecrator.

Skryre - Great start. Grab 60 Clanrats, and you can make a strong list. You -can- build a list with that as it is, but it'll be a glass cannon, with nothing to protect your dangerous shooting units and support characters from being destroyed.

So first things first, dislike of the double turn is common. You can just ask your opponent before the game starts if they want to ignore the rule and a decent amount of people will agree. If you have choice of who goes first, you can pick second and just never take the double.

Secondly, the Skryre list is stronger. A lot stronger. And while there is a bit of a learning curve they are an army that is mainly difficult to master rather than difficult to play. A lot of it is risk-reward mechanics and I will tell you now; if in doubt take the risk. Life is cheap for Skaven and the Skryre army is designed such that it benefits overall from its various overcharge mechanics even if you blow up your own guys sometimes. When playing my Skryre army I generally count myself pretty lucky (and TBH a bit disappointed) if none of my models kill themselves during a game. It is also an army that obliterates others when it gets the double-turn so there is that.

Thirdly, and I see this happen to new players a lot, if someone tries to tell you it's your fault for losing to a double you can safely disregard them; that person does not have a full grasp of AoS strategy. A player, especially a new player, is almost always better off assuming the double turn does not occur in a given round than trying to prepare for it. Of course you absolutely want to have a backup plan, but on average going with the assumption that initiative stays the same (66% chance) gets better results. I can go into detail if you like but it is a somewhat dense strategic description that boils down to the above.

Rahdok wrote:
The lists are as followed - skaven: 2 arch warlocks , 3 engineers 1 bombardier , 16 acolytes , 6 stormfiends ,2 doom wheels , 5 warp fire throwers ,3 rattling guns, 1 warp canon , 1 drill team

Eew. That might technically tally up to 2k pts & satisfy the Leader/Battleline/etc chart, but without basic clan-rats to block for the characters & weapon teams it's a very glass cannon list. You're very likely to get over run & will struggle to control objectives.
Still a good Skryre sampling though and you can build off of it. And all of those units are fun to use.

Rahdok wrote:
- 20 blood reavers , 5 warriors ,mightly lord of khorne , khorgorath , Valkia , Bloodstoker , Blood Secrator, Exalted deathbringer, aspiring deathbringer, skull grinder and 2 slaughter priests

Eew x2. The Skaven aren't great IMO, but this is strictly worse. A collection of Khorne heroes & little else will result in bad games for you & easy victories for the other guy. Playing this will most likely drive you away from AoS.


If you're going to take one of these options, take the Skaven package.
While you might have some tough games, at least you'll be playing with varied & fun units.
There's also more dollar value with the Skaven.

It may be a glass cannon, but it is still one hell of a cannon.

A warp-lightning cannon

Have you priced out your MTG? Some collections can hold staggering value. Hate to see you trade for some Jank when you could have sold and come out better off.

Yes I have most of what I have is first edition stuff and some stuff from 2013-2015 when I played a lot. I have well above a few grand hence why I’m trading it in for store credit and an army and some cash cuz I had to choose mtg or 40k and I chose 40k lol. Now age of sigmar too

The skaven looks like a better deal, basic rats would help though.

For the record; AoS is good fun if you have good people to play with and don't try to keep up with GW too hard.

Also consider that there are other games that you could try with those minis; you should be able to at least try Age of Fantasy, Kings of War (with some movement trays) and maybe Oathmark (not familiar enough with it myself to say).

The skaven list looks like heaps of fun to me, and devastating when used right. Pick up the forbidden power set for the soulscream bridge, and you can blast your opponents army t1 with more-more-more warppower, warpstone sparks, and jumping shooting units through the bridge.

I’ve decided that imma get the khorne army, yeah the skaven list is beyond tempting and I really fething love skaven ,, but if I do skaven I want to tailor make it and paint it , khorne seems like I could still do stuff to the list and red paint is red paint and I like the aesthetic of it. So any tips where to go from here with that khorne army , cuz I k is next to nothing about army building in AOS I’m doing research atm but it seems their a balanced army which means their like a top 20 not top 10.

I'm no expert on Khorne list building, but what I typically see is people picking Daemons or Mortals as a theme, and largely sticking to that.

Most of what you're getting is mortal heroes. What you need the most is Reavers and Warriors, to fill out the meat of the army, alongside some more elite units and specialized stuff. And, even if you stick to mainly mortals, you'll want to get some Daemons, so you can Summon them on to the table later in the game through the Blood Tithe mechanic that Khorne uses.

On the other hand, you could just go Daemons, with the backbone of supporting heroes. Even Daemon armies like the Bloodsecrator and Slaughterpriests.

Start buying bloodthirsters.

Alright I’ll look into it I liked the idea of building the mounted army too but that seems heavily gimmicky and not very sound long term lol, also how does Nighthaunt fair? They were the army I always kinda wanted to run as I am a really big fan of undead and the ghost horsemen models and flying dudes just look amazing?

Nighthaunt are not in a good spot right now, and are actually best used with allegiance rules not even in their battletome. However, this is no doubt something GW are aware of and I would expect one of the upcoming campaign books to give them a Nurgle-style buff to bring them into line. Assuming they don't get a new battletome this year, which is also possible.

Damn, I will eventually build them after I finish my Custodes and I guess khorne now, here’s the list I’ve sort of thrown together.
Warlord lookin like a Bloodthirster or some kind with mage eater and skullshard mantle. Might have a back up warlord too for a more human army but I like the thirster models and a lot of people recommend it. Slaughter Priest x 2, Blood Secrator , then 20x blood reavers and then blood warriors. These seem to be the common models in an army and with that list I have a good chunk after that it’s guess and check or rule of kooool

If you're worried about janky rules dominating game play (double turns) or certain armies with clear power gaps over others, AoS is probably not the game to get into.

The models are great, and you like the hobby, painting them up and displaying them on the table can be fun. Games can be fun too, buts this game is not balanced or strategic really. I'd try a game or 2 to see how you like it, or maybe peruse the stock of Skaven/Khorne models that might get excited to buy/put together/paint.

Also that Khorne list looks like cast offs from someones Khornes collection. Like stuff that came in box sets that no one wanted.

He let me see the models and he said it was a box he got and added a few models into but got into playing Skaven army he liked but found it was just meh (his list appears to be a glass cannon according to people) and then he made a dwarf list that he now loves. The khorne was excess from a maybe army that he never made fully and is painted with care as the models look okay and the paint is a decent job. It’s not gonna win awards but it’s around my level in paint job maybe even a little better, so I don’t feel ripped off doing it. Especially for some Mtg cards.

MegaDombro wrote:
If you're worried about janky rules dominating game play (double turns) or certain armies with clear power gaps over others, AoS is probably not the game to get into.

The models are great, and you like the hobby, painting them up and displaying them on the table can be fun. Games can be fun too, buts this game is not balanced or strategic really. I'd try a game or 2 to see how you like it, or maybe peruse the stock of Skaven/Khorne models that might get excited to buy/put together/paint.

Also that Khorne list looks like cast offs from someones Khornes collection. Like stuff that came in box sets that no one wanted.

You have a typo there; you wrote "AoS" instead of "any variation of Warhammer".

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Nighthaunt are not in a good spot right now, and are actually best used with allegiance rules not even in their battletome. However, this is no doubt something GW are aware of and I would expect one of the upcoming campaign books to give them a Nurgle-style buff to bring them into line. Assuming they don't get a new battletome this year, which is also possible.

Wait, doesn't their entire army litrally ignore all rend? That seems mega powerful.

 Togusa wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Nighthaunt are not in a good spot right now, and are actually best used with allegiance rules not even in their battletome. However, this is no doubt something GW are aware of and I would expect one of the upcoming campaign books to give them a Nurgle-style buff to bring them into line. Assuming they don't get a new battletome this year, which is also possible.

Wait, doesn't their entire army litrally ignore all rend? That seems mega powerful.

On paper that sounds awesome. As do some of their other rules.

In practice? I've yet to feel terribly threatened by my friends NH. He ignores rend? Eh, ok. 50/50 chance he takes damage. I'm good with that, he'll roll low often enough. And against some of my forces (goblins) rend isn't even a factor for much of what I've got n the table. Or it's just rend -1. Oh, he ignored it. "Eh."

The fight again ability (whatever it's called) if you roll x on the charge? Sometimes dangerous. Usually not.

The biggest thing in most of our games has been their Bravery score rendering Battle Shock moot. You can't really make a bunch of ghosts run.....

 Togusa wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Nighthaunt are not in a good spot right now, and are actually best used with allegiance rules not even in their battletome. However, this is no doubt something GW are aware of and I would expect one of the upcoming campaign books to give them a Nurgle-style buff to bring them into line. Assuming they don't get a new battletome this year, which is also possible.

Wait, doesn't their entire army litrally ignore all rend? That seems mega powerful.

Ignoring rend isn't be all end all. You scythe through it with　tons of rend 0 attacks(doesn't care) or what's currently popular: tons of mw's(ignore　rend. Bohoo. I ignore your save).

The whole army ignores rend, and the whole army flies. It is their strength and also a tricky balancing situation.

Abilities like ethereal and fly cost a points premium--as they obviously should. Having a few units in an army that ignore all rend allows you to deploy them against high-rend enemy units, ensuring that their ethereal ability is not wasted in no-rend enemies. Similar for fly; a few flying units can handle more terrain-dense areas of the board and/or do maneuvers requiring them to fly over enemies. Both together is also useful, fly making it much easier to get the ethereal units to the enemies they want to fight.

But when the whole army has that, there is diminishing returns. You don't need ethereal against the parts of the enemy army that lack rend--cheaper non-ethereal units would serve better. Less dramatic but still similar is fly, where units that just need to head up the middle and occupy space don't make use of the ability they are paying points for. The solution is to have these units pay their premium, but counterbalance the diminishing returns of having them across the entire army with extra-strong allegiance abilities.

Which gets to the heart of the issue; the Nighthaunt allegiance abilities are not good. The main features are bravery/battleshock debuffs which are not viable mechanics right now due to how easily most armies negate battleshock, and an ability that is OP allowing units to fight right after completing a charge move (in addition to their normal fight in the subsequent charge phase) but only triggers on an unmodified 10+ charge roll, making it unreliable to the point of near uselessness.

The redeeming feature of NH as a faction is basically exploiting a number of abilities returning slain -models- to units instead of having the modern effect of healing per-wound. That means slain spirit hosts (3 wounds) can be brought back, making those abilities 3x as strong as they are supposed to be. But it is a niche use and a rather unsatisfying one.

Also Nighthaunt came in the starter and has been around for a long time. It is easier to come up with ways to deal with the most common army than to counter the less common. It's partly why 40K strategy focuses mostly on dealing with Space Marines.

Yeah I have been doing research and it looks like people take a blob
Of ghosts and just have them take some gak down and Rez them and do it again. Or some people run 5-10 horses and watch the mortal wounds fly. I did see a khorne list that was pretty similar buncha mounted doggies and if ur in the right army it’s just guaranteed mortal wounds on a successful charge per model and d3 for warlord and just charge characters and monsters and watch their hop drop