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While the codex is still relatively new, it’s pretty apparent that the army is wildly OP . Currently sitting at a 58-18-2 or a 74% winrate (numbers stolen from a reddit post). That puts the codex at a tournament win % at around what ironhands were getting pre-any nerfs. No that’s not an exaggeration, iron hands had around a 77% win rate when their codex first dropped, meaning drukhari are only slightly worse than that book.
Some of the comes from them being a hard counter to SM (which for now make up a significant chunk of the meta) and some of that comes from armies having not adjusted to the way drukhari plays. That said it’s a lot harder to adjust to a 70% win rate army than a 60% army, because there are less weaknesses in a 70% win rate army.
So will GW nerf Drukhari. They probably should. Invalidating SM entirely might make some here on Dakka happy, but probably isn’t in the best interest of GWs $$$ line. Also many armies simply don’t have fun playing against DE. Maybe Tau like the matchup, but that by itself won’t fix that army.
The stupid bajillion attack Succubus will get nerfed in the FAQ, not even GW is silly enough to think that interaction is really ok. That may tone things down a bit.
After that, give it some time and things will probably balance out a bit. Or else the next codex will just be even more broken and everyone will forget about Drukhari because Ad Mech will be even more problematic.
If Drukhari really stay above 70% win rate obviously GW will do something about it sooner or later.
yukishiro1 wrote: The stupid bajillion attack Succubus will get nerfed in the FAQ, not even GW is silly enough to think that interaction is really ok.
This is the same rules team that gave us things like Scatterbikes, Castellans lasting several months longer than they should have, and the incredibly play tested Iron Hands supplement.
Trust me when I say they're grossly incompetent and nothing is shocking to me anymore. What IS shocking is people still defending them when we catch these rules Day 1 of release (and hell, even BEFORE release when we get leaks).
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I'm the last person to defend GW's "release it broke then let the community fix it" approach. That we expect them to release broken nonsense and consider it a victory if it's fixed within a month sorta says it all re: how low our collective expectations are.
yukishiro1 wrote: The stupid bajillion attack Succubus will get nerfed in the FAQ, not even GW is silly enough to think that interaction is really ok. That may tone things down a bit.
In addition the reavers will be going to 20 points. I don't think this particular period is necessarily emblematic of the codex as those two things make for pretty wild lists.
yukishiro1 wrote: I'm the last person to defend GW's "release it broke then let the community fix it" approach. That we expect them to release broken nonsense and consider it a victory if it's fixed within a month sorta says it all re: how low our collective expectations are.
So, which things from DG, BA, DW, SW, Necrons have been hilariously OP?
Or is a single model with a specific setup really the only dead horse we're beating here?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: Nobody's been actually playing with 10 point Reavers. At least I really hope no TO has been gutless enough to allow that...
No idea. Research time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 01:19:05
yukishiro1 wrote: I'm the last person to defend GW's "release it broke then let the community fix it" approach. That we expect them to release broken nonsense and consider it a victory if it's fixed within a month sorta says it all re: how low our collective expectations are.
So, which things from DG, BA, DW, SW, Necrons have been hilariously OP?...
"Broken" can also mean "wildly underpowered and pointless". Personally I'm of the opinion that playing Deathwatch is quite similar to playing Space Marines with no Chapter Tactics right now.
- Still nobody has provided me with a single streamed game where Space Marines beat Drukhari. Not one. Please show me, I'm waiting. There are plenty of new Drukhari games online.
- Here are BCP stats from the last week, my source is Art of War. Drukhari were 58 - 18 - 2. That's a 74% winrate.
- In that week 26 players took Drukhari. Of those, 13 went undefeated.
That's the post that the claim made. I just went through 4/11 to 4/17 and found no GTs. Of the 16 games I saw four DE in the top 10. Only one took first place with just two wins in a two round tournament.
yukishiro1 wrote: I'm the last person to defend GW's "release it broke then let the community fix it" approach. That we expect them to release broken nonsense and consider it a victory if it's fixed within a month sorta says it all re: how low our collective expectations are.
So, which things from DG, BA, DW, SW, Necrons have been hilariously OP?...
"Broken" can also mean "wildly underpowered and pointless". Personally I'm of the opinion that playing Deathwatch is quite similar to playing Space Marines with no Chapter Tactics right now.
Sooo......Deathwatch are CSM now? Welcome aboard! Pick up your spikes to the left please.
That's not the correct use of the term "dead horse."
But if you really want to get into it...even in 9th edition alone, we had a bunch of badly thought out or proofread stuff in the core rules (remember Daemon Prince Super Friends?), and initial 9th edition points were a joke too. Then Space Marines had the hilariously stupid Apothecary rezzing Primario cart fiasco. And that's just off the top of my head.
Reavers [14 PL, 145pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug), 3x Grav-talon
. Arena Champion: Splinter Rifle
. 6x Reaver: 6x Bladevanes, 6x Splinter Pistol, 6x Splinter Rifle
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
And some more:
Reavers [10 PL, 135pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug), 3x Grav-talon
. Arena Champion: Splinter Rifle
. 5x Reaver: 5x Bladevanes, 5x Splinter Pistol, 5x Splinter Rifle
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: That's not the correct use of the term "dead horse."
But if you really want to get into it...even in 9th edition alone, we had a bunch of badly thought out or proofread stuff in the core rules (remember Daemon Prince Super Friends?), and initial 9th edition points were a joke too. Then Space Marines had the hilariously stupid Apothecary rezzing Primario cart fiasco. And that's just off the top of my head.
I expect you had to reach fairly deep for those, because those things didn't even impact the game ( thanks COVID ) and the points are still largely standing outside the obvious errors. Perhaps I am not recalling as much, because so few games were played?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Three evens 4/18 to 4/20.
One has no DE.
One has a 3rd place WWT with 10 point reavers
Reavers [10 PL, 120pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug)
. Arena Champion: Heat Lance
. 6x Reaver: 6x Bladevanes, 6x Splinter Pistol, 6x Splinter Rifle
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
Reavers [10 PL, 120pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug)
. Arena Champion: Heat Lance
. 6x Reaver: 6x Bladevanes, 6x Splinter Pistol, 6x Splinter Rifle
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
Off to 4/4 to 4/10.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 01:52:25
Are you sure they didn't take less than 2000 points to make up for that? I.e. that it's not just how it's being displayed in the list software?
Anyone running 10 point reavers right now is not just "that guy," it's an actively illegal list. It's already been fixed. But I can't imagine any serious TO would have allowed it even back before it was fixed, it was so obviously a typo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 01:56:30
I don't know for sure that's the case, just throwing out random ideas. I find it hard to believe anyone's really running 10 point reavers. I guess I could be wrong. It would make me sad though.
Here we go - Death or Glory Warhammer 40kTTS League: Season 3
4 DE in the top 10. 2 round tournament only one with a loss. Hilariously one had 10 point Reavers and one did not. If they didn't have 10 point Reavers they had Dark Lotus ( except the one with 20 point Reavers ).
That's kind of it. I don't know if Reavers or Dark Lotus won games, but I can't find the number of games referenced. Does anyone know of a GT or two?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: I don't know for sure that's the case, just throwing out random ideas. I find it hard to believe anyone's really running 10 point reavers. I guess I could be wrong. It would make me sad though.
To get up to 78 games in a week they had to have pulled in RTTs, which are wild west territory. I can't seem to find any GTs other than the one above ( which is being played over 5 weeks ). This is the list from the one with 20 10 point reavers:
Reavers [14 PL, 145pts]: 3x Grav-Talon
. Arena Champion
. 6x Reaver: 6x Bladevanes, 6x Splinter pistol, 6x Splinter rifle
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance
Reavers [14 PL, 145pts]: 3x Grav-Talon
. Arena Champion
. 6x Reaver: 6x Bladevanes, 6x Splinter pistol, 6x Splinter rifle
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance
Scourges [7 PL, 100pts]
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine
Scourges [7 PL, 100pts]
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine
Wait, I thought DA were OP, did we forget them already?
Its certainly too early to make a rational decision on them yet. People have yet to develop counters or seriously planned their lists around them. But they will.
Just fix the dumb things right now (razor flail succubus)
bullyboy wrote: Wait, I thought DA were OP, did we forget them already?
Its certainly too early to make a rational decision on them yet. People have yet to develop counters or seriously planned their lists around them. But they will.
Just fix the dumb things right now (razor flail succubus)
In the original post they complained:
Still nobody has provided me with a single streamed game where Space Marines beat Drukhari. Not one. Please show me, I'm waiting. There are plenty of new Drukhari games online.
Which is a pretty narrow place to look and I'd wonder how much those DE won by.
My gut feeling is a lot of marines lists were really ill equipped to handle DE. How does one kill 20 wyches and a succubus before they get to you when all you have is assault termies and MM ABs?
bullyboy wrote: Wait, I thought DA were OP, did we forget them already?
Its certainly too early to make a rational decision on them yet. People have yet to develop counters or seriously planned their lists around them. But they will.
Just fix the dumb things right now (razor flail succubus)
The difference between DA and this is people just. Assumed DA where good based on their rules alone. Once playtesting against them actually happened it became the apparent that their initial hype was overblown and the army was around a mid 50% win rate army at best.
Drukhari meanwhile have won in many events they’ve shown up in. Their win rate is far above 50%, even discounting 10 points reaver. A succubus nerf will help, but I doubt it fully solves the issue.
Salt donkey wrote: Their win rate is far above 50%, even discounting 10 points reaver. A succubus nerf will help, but I doubt it fully solves the issue.
Can you help me find GTs where they won a lot? I'm having a hard time tracking any down in April.
bullyboy wrote: Wait, I thought DA were OP, did we forget them already?
Its certainly too early to make a rational decision on them yet. People have yet to develop counters or seriously planned their lists around them. But they will.
Just fix the dumb things right now (razor flail succubus)
The difference between DA and this is people just. Assumed DA where good based on their rules alone. Once playtesting against them actually happened it became the apparent that their initial hype was overblown and the army was around a mid 50% win rate army at best.
Drukhari meanwhile have won in many events they’ve shown up in. Their win rate is far above 50%, even discounting 10 points reaver. A succubus nerf will help, but I doubt it fully solves the issue.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
OP Sisters of Battle, followed closely by OP Orks, and so it continues.
And before that, DG had a month of super-spiked winrate, and before that, DA had one, and before that, Necrons had one...
it's wild, it's almost like a new codex leads to new surprises that hit the meta hard until people adjust to it and then the winrate drops back down.
Should GW throw in a few more codexes where they actively choose not to give an army the means to compete in tournaments like DW, would that be an improvement in your eyes?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I know that Drukhari are Op right now, but I'm actually happy for them. They spent decades as GW's neglected stepchild. They deserve at least a couple months in the sun.
Actually Games-workshop engineered Covid, just so they could trick people into buying more product, ie give them the excuse to do a faction creep strategy
-New codex is announced. Previews and leaks trickle out: Players of faction lament "Oh no! We're going to suck! Why did they change that? And that?"
-Codex is leaked in full/released: Players of faction rejoice "This is great! We're actually good again! Huzzah!"
-Armies using new codex start showing up at tournaments and flgs: Meta is unprepared for army with new forms of offensive/defensive stats and abilities. Faction wins a lot. Players of other factions despair "OP! OP! OP! NERF! NERF! NEERRFF!"
-Meta adjusts to new codex. Win rate comes down to reasonable levels.
Gadzilla, you aren't wrong, but I see it more as games-workshop teasing you with codex releases to key word "tempt" players to buy new armies. As each new army could easily generate 1k in revenue. The tease part is indicated in the slow and purposely rules updates/balance changes/ ie new codexes. I would even argue they can't even get simple stuff right, and are making all kinds of typos in their updates just to feign being dumb to fool us even more.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 03:37:08
bullyboy wrote: Wait, I thought DA were OP, did we forget them already?
Its certainly too early to make a rational decision on them yet. People have yet to develop counters or seriously planned their lists around them. But they will.
Just fix the dumb things right now (razor flail succubus)
The difference between DA and this is people just. Assumed DA where good based on their rules alone. Once playtesting against them actually happened it became the apparent that their initial hype was overblown and the army was around a mid 50% win rate army at best.
Drukhari meanwhile have won in many events they’ve shown up in. Their win rate is far above 50%, even discounting 10 points reaver. A succubus nerf will help, but I doubt it fully solves the issue.
What events? And how many events have they won ?
Quite a few, I counted 3 from just this last weekend in a short amount of time. One of was a 21 man tournament (onslaught Gt qualifier). In fact anytime a Drukhari show up, there’s a nearly %100 shot they will at least end up in upper half of lists.
Give it a month and a few actual big events. If they're still performing similar a month from now - especially after the FAQ presumably fixes the dumbest thing in the book - it'll be fair to start concluding they really are a problem.
In addition to drukhari being pretty good against marines and also being new (thus having a bit of a gotcha factor) and also having a couple obviously/probably broken things (flail succubus and reaver prices), I wonder if this is partly a matter of drukhari being the first 9th edition faction out that leans hard into offense at the cost of defense.
Necrons, DG, and marines in general are all factions that I associate with defense. Drukhari have poisoned weapons that don't care about the toughness of DG, elite 'crons, and gravis units. A lot of their D1 weapons became D2. They gained a few sources of mortal wounds, and some of their existing sources got a bit better. Units that would previously have been wounding necron warriors on 4+ or 5+ can now pretty reliably do so on a 3+ or 4+ instead, and they potentially have some bonus AP splashed in there as well.
So if your army has a lot of points invested in "shields" and drukhari are pretty good at being "shield breakers," you might be getting countered a little. But drukhari are also heckin' fragile. The changes to their defenses are either pretty horizontal or else a nerf (mostly in the case of coven units). So I'm wondering how things will look when we get some other offense-heavy factions that don't invest as heavily into defense as marines do. Maybe drukhari are kind of the paper to "tough armies'" rock waiting to meet their paper?
I don't know. Newkhari definitely got a pretty big power boost (kind of lazy design imo), but the only things that really jump out at me as being too good are the million attack succubus and the reavers. Take those away, and it seems like marines ought to be able to do okay against them. Bolters wound their vehicles on 5+ and reduce their saves to a 5+ on turns 2 and 3. Heavy bolters wound their transports on a 4+ and each failed 5+ invul takes away 1/3rd of a venom's health. It feels like things ought to shake out reasonably evenly between these factions. Except 'crons. Drukhari seem well-equipped to handle those guys.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.