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Hola!
Let's say you are fighting twice. Do you hit/wound/save, remove casualties, then hit-wound-save and possibly consolidate?

Such that after the first fight, survivors could be outside of engagement range, negating the second fight?

 Chaos_Seer wrote:
Hola!
Let's say you are fighting twice. Do you hit/wound/save, remove casualties, then hit-wound-save and possibly consolidate?

Such that after the first fight, survivors could be outside of engagement range, negating the second fight?

My understanding is that, when you fight twice, you perform ALL steps of the Fight phase, including pile in, hit/wound/save, remove casualties, and consolidate for EACH TIME you fight.

However, my understanding could be mistaken, and I look forward to the posts of others clearing this up.

^ this is correct. Each time you fight you go through the whole sequence from pile in up to and including consolidating.

Octopoid wrote:

 Chaos_Seer wrote:
Hola!
Let's say you are fighting twice. Do you hit/wound/save, remove casualties, then hit-wound-save and possibly consolidate?

Such that after the first fight, survivors could be outside of engagement range, negating the second fight?

My understanding is that, when you fight twice, you perform ALL steps of the Fight phase, including pile in, hit/wound/save, remove casualties, and consolidate for EACH TIME you fight.

However, my understanding could be mistaken, and I look forward to the posts of others clearing this up.

Aash wrote:^ this is correct. Each time you fight you go through the whole sequence from pile in up to and including consolidating.

These two have it right.

Fight twice abilities generally make the unit eligible to be chosen to fight again, not force it to immediately Fight again. This means that the turn still cycles between their initial and extra attacks, assuming your opponent has any valid units to Fight with.

There may be some cases that cause a unit to actually repeat the Fight steps without a break between (I'm not an expert on every single army), but unless it specifies an exception to the order of operations in the Fight phase, assume that you go through all the steps again still.

Note that this is separate from abilities that grant extra Attacks. Those happen immediately during the initial Make Close Combat Attacks step and before the initial Consolidate step.

This all functions the same for Shooting Phase abilities that grant an extra chance to Shoot or extra Attacks.

So let's say a unit which charges or always fights first has this ability. If they charge and fight and the enemy unit isn't destroyed, and they fight twice, will the enemy unit fight before the second fight? What I am thinking here is the unit that fights twice already fought first so its second fight doesn't also fight first. Does that seem right? Unit A fights, then unit B fights, then unit A fights again.

 Chaos_Seer wrote:
So let's say a unit which charges or always fights first has this ability. If they charge and fight and the enemy unit isn't destroyed, and they fight twice, will the enemy unit fight before the second fight? What I am thinking here is the unit that fights twice already fought first so its second fight doesn't also fight first. Does that seem right? Unit A fights, then unit B fights, then unit A fights again.

The unit still charged or had the always fights first ability. If there's nothing saying in the rule that the opponent gets to attack before fighting again, then the same conditions applie to fighting again - if you charged or always fight first, you would still go before non-charging opponents that don't have a special rule to also fight first. If they have counter attack or an always fight first ability, then they could go before the unit fights a second time since you and the opponent are alternating selecting "fights first" units.

 Chaos_Seer wrote:
Hola!
Let's say you are fighting twice. Do you hit/wound/save, remove casualties, then hit-wound-save and possibly consolidate?

Such that after the first fight, survivors could be outside of engagement range, negating the second fight?

Fight is clearly defined in both the Core rules and rules glossary as "Pile-In, make attacks, and then Consolidate". Each time you fight, you must complete all three steps before you have finished that fight.

 Chaos_Seer wrote:
Hola!
Let's say you are fighting twice. Do you hit/wound/save, remove casualties, then hit-wound-save and possibly consolidate?

Such that after the first fight, survivors could be outside of engagement range, negating the second fight?

By the way, to answer the second part of your question, it is technically possible for a unit to be engaged in a Fight and be an ineligible target for the opposing unit in their second Fight. If the unit's owner removes casualties from the front rather than the back, the unit can potentially be moved out of engagement range following the first Fight consolidation step. It is rare for this to happen, but under the right conditions it can be done.

For instance, the most common chance of this happening would be when there are two units from one side in engagement range of the same opposing units. Because of Pile-in and Consolidation are optional steps, the unit owner may chose not to do so leaving their unit(s) farther away and out of engagement range following the aforementioned remove from the front strategy. When the enemy then goes to Pile-in, they must do so towards the nearest enemy unit, which would be the unit that was purposefully left in engagement range, thus freeing the unit(s) that were removed from combat for the next turn assuming they are not again engaged in some way.

The second way is much rarer as it requires specific forethought with the intention of pulling this stunt. In this case, the owner of the unit who wishes to disengage strings out their unit in a line away from the unit that they expect to be engaged with. Again, due to the wording of Pile-in and consolidate, they must do so in the direction of the nearest enemy unit, i.e. the model at the front of the line. Then the unit owner once again follows the remove from the front strategy and by doing so eliminates the string of units within 7" (up to 13" for those units that have extended Pile-in and/or consolidate moves) of the enemy unit engaging them, thus preventing them from reaching engagement distance on the second Fight action. This is easier to pull off under normal circumstances where the enemy unit does not get a second Fight action and so does not get second Pile-in and Consolidate movements, thus drastically reducing the distance needed to keep them from reengaging down to 4"-7".

 SergentSilver wrote:

 Chaos_Seer wrote:
Hola!
Let's say you are fighting twice. Do you hit/wound/save, remove casualties, then hit-wound-save and possibly consolidate?

Such that after the first fight, survivors could be outside of engagement range, negating the second fight?

By the way, to answer the second part of your question, it is technically possible for a unit to be engaged in a Fight and be an ineligible target for the opposing unit in their second Fight. If the unit's owner removes casualties from the front rather than the back, the unit can potentially be moved out of engagement range following the first Fight consolidation step. It is rare for this to happen, but under the right conditions it can be done.

For instance, the most common chance of this happening would be when there are two units from one side in engagement range of the same opposing units. Because of Pile-in and Consolidation are optional steps, the unit owner may chose not to do so leaving their unit(s) farther away and out of engagement range following the aforementioned remove from the front strategy. When the enemy then goes to Pile-in, they must do so towards the nearest enemy unit, which would be the unit that was purposefully left in engagement range, thus freeing the unit(s) that were removed from combat for the next turn assuming they are not again engaged in some way.

The second way is much rarer as it requires specific forethought with the intention of pulling this stunt. In this case, the owner of the unit who wishes to disengage strings out their unit in a line away from the unit that they expect to be engaged with. Again, due to the wording of Pile-in and consolidate, they must do so in the direction of the nearest enemy unit, i.e. the model at the front of the line. Then the unit owner once again follows the remove from the front strategy and by doing so eliminates the string of units within 7" (up to 13" for those units that have extended Pile-in and/or consolidate moves) of the enemy unit engaging them, thus preventing them from reaching engagement distance on the second Fight action. This is easier to pull off under normal circumstances where the enemy unit does not get a second Fight action and so does not get second Pile-in and Consolidate movements, thus drastically reducing the distance needed to keep them from reengaging down to 4"-7".

So this leads to an interesting query. I did this in my last match... I had two infantry squads from Astra Militarum. They were side-by-side and dispersed according to the almost maximum coherence distance. Kharne charged the first of two infantry squads and killed 8 enemies, leaving 2 guardsmen to his right 4-5" away. I presumed he couldn't fight again leading to this thread, but we agreed to let him fight again and kill the unit and then consolidate into the other Guard unit.

Here is the thing though... Give what you said, he couldn't reach the 2 guardsmen to his right. The other Guard squad which he did not charge was to his left. But technically the closest enemy models were from that squad. Should he have, in-fact, piled in towards the other unit if I optionally chose not to consolidate?

Pile in, if you want to, must be always towards the closest enemy model, same applies to consolidate. If two or more models are equally distant, you get to choose where you want to move.

 Chaos_Seer wrote:

Spoiler:

 SergentSilver wrote:

 Chaos_Seer wrote:
Hola!
Let's say you are fighting twice. Do you hit/wound/save, remove casualties, then hit-wound-save and possibly consolidate?

Such that after the first fight, survivors could be outside of engagement range, negating the second fight?

By the way, to answer the second part of your question, it is technically possible for a unit to be engaged in a Fight and be an ineligible target for the opposing unit in their second Fight. If the unit's owner removes casualties from the front rather than the back, the unit can potentially be moved out of engagement range following the first Fight consolidation step. It is rare for this to happen, but under the right conditions it can be done.

For instance, the most common chance of this happening would be when there are two units from one side in engagement range of the same opposing units. Because of Pile-in and Consolidation are optional steps, the unit owner may chose not to do so leaving their unit(s) farther away and out of engagement range following the aforementioned remove from the front strategy. When the enemy then goes to Pile-in, they must do so towards the nearest enemy unit, which would be the unit that was purposefully left in engagement range, thus freeing the unit(s) that were removed from combat for the next turn assuming they are not again engaged in some way.

The second way is much rarer as it requires specific forethought with the intention of pulling this stunt. In this case, the owner of the unit who wishes to disengage strings out their unit in a line away from the unit that they expect to be engaged with. Again, due to the wording of Pile-in and consolidate, they must do so in the direction of the nearest enemy unit, i.e. the model at the front of the line. Then the unit owner once again follows the remove from the front strategy and by doing so eliminates the string of units within 7" (up to 13" for those units that have extended Pile-in and/or consolidate moves) of the enemy unit engaging them, thus preventing them from reaching engagement distance on the second Fight action. This is easier to pull off under normal circumstances where the enemy unit does not get a second Fight action and so does not get second Pile-in and Consolidate movements, thus drastically reducing the distance needed to keep them from reengaging down to 4"-7".

So this leads to an interesting query. I did this in my last match... I had two infantry squads from Astra Militarum. They were side-by-side and dispersed according to the almost maximum coherence distance. Kharne charged the first of two infantry squads and killed 8 enemies, leaving 2 guardsmen to his right 4-5" away. I presumed he couldn't fight again leading to this thread, but we agreed to let him fight again and kill the unit and then consolidate into the other Guard unit.

Here is the thing though... Give what you said, he couldn't reach the 2 guardsmen to his right. The other Guard squad which he did not charge was to his left. But technically the closest enemy models were from that squad. Should he have, in-fact, piled in towards the other unit if I optionally chose not to consolidate?

As per the RAW of Pile In and Consolidate, the move must be made towards the closest enemy model, so if the squad of two was further away, then it was an illegal move and (likely unintentional) cheating. Additionally, if Kharn had not charged that turn, then he would not have been eligible for his second Fight once he was no longer within engagement range of any enemy units. Again (likely unintentional) cheating.

Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it (see below). An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn.

PILE IN
When a unit piles in, you can move each model in that unit up to 3" – this is a pile-in move. Each model in the unit must finish its pile-in move closer to the closest enemy model. A model that is already touching an enemy model cannot move, but still counts as having piled in. Remember that a unit must finish any type of move in unit coherency.

CONSOLIDATE
When a unit consolidates, you can move each model in the unit up to 3" – this is a Consolidation move. Each model must finish its Consolidation move closer to the closest enemy model. A model that is already touching an enemy model cannot move, but still counts as having consolidated. Remember that a unit must finish any type of move in unit coherency.

Kharn has the Blood for the Blood God ability which allows him to Fight twice. Due to the wording of the Fight Phase eligibility, if Kharn was the one who charged, he is still eligible to be chosen to Fight even if there are no units in engagement range of him. What that amounts to however is that he can Pile In towards the nearest enemy unit and then if there are still no enemies in engagement range, that were targets of his charge, he skips right to being able to Consolidate towards the nearest enemy unit. This is the same for the first Fight assuming the unit charged was removed in some way, most likely by dying to other charging units prior to Kharn being chosen to fight.

Also worth mentioning is that if Kharn had charged the first squad and not declared the second squad as a target of the charge, he could not make attacks against them even if he managed to get into engagement range as per the RAW for charging units.

Attacks made by models in units that made a charge move this turn can only target enemy units that their unit declared a charge against, or that performed a Heroic Intervention this turn.

This limitation has no effect on Pile In and Consolidate however, so those movements still must be made towards the nearest enemy model regardless of whether or not it was the charge target.