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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Was just looking at some of the renegade knights and £350 for one, albeit large, model. That’s how divorces happen.

So what is it, is it just the fact that it’s small batch? Once the moulds are made it can’t cost them much more to make the models? And frankly the noise marines I ordered were not as good quality (they needed a lot more work) than one of the more recent GW kits that I have such as start collecting CSM.

   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





isn't the background the wrong subforum

Small production rates and the marketing as premium

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

Yes - they're hand-cast, small-batch resin rather than the mass-produced plastic of GW.

FW don't do Noise Marines - do you mean Kakophoni? If they had issues, did you contact FW customer support?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/26 08:49:09


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yes just realised I was int he wrong forum, don’t know if there’s a way to move it
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





mrFickle wrote:
Yes just realised I was int he wrong forum, don’t know if there’s a way to move it


use the report symbol to request a move. Happens all the time.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





Dorset, England

The production being expensive will have an effect sure, but most companies don't use cost plus pricing anymore.

The justification, using the reasoning of value pricing, would be because people are willing to pay that much due to the perceived value of the product.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Typically resin and metal models command a higher price than plastic because resin and metal casting are more labour intensive forms of production. An injection moulding plastic machine, once setup with a mould, can spit them out rapidly in seconds over and over again.

Meanwhile resin and metal require manual setup, pouring of the material and then manual emptying of the mould, cleaning and setting up again all to get one mould's worth of model out. Some models (esp larger forgeworld ones) will often be one model to a mould



So its slower.
In addition a fair few FW models are big which increases complexity and most general costs requiring larger and more moulds to complete.


Finally its a "premium" service rather than a mass market one so they sell fewer units than the main GW end of the company.


If you look around resin and metal prices can vary a fair bit from different sources, FW is normally on the higher end but at the same time they also produce a lot of bigger things that are often not attempted by other firms and many big models from other firms can cost just as much. An Archangel from PP is into the £100s as is the new Necromancer dragon from Creature Caster.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Part of it is resin is more labor-intensive casting method, meaning smaller volumes are produced, and the moulds wear out faster.
But just as with plastics, big part of it is branding. GW can charge higher prices because it told people FW is a "luxury" service and they believe it.

And Overread is right that typically plastic is cheaper than resin and metal, but GW managed to buck that trend too, it's recent 5-figure boxes costing more per-figure than many comparable metal/resin figures.

   
Made in fi
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






I'm not sure what you mean. A decade ago, the price difference between GW and FW model prices was huge, but in 2021 I don't feel that way anymore. Right now, I'd say FW sounds about as expensive as the plastic kits, 20-30€ for one character model and 40-50€ for a squad box. Only area where GW beats FW in prices by a clear margin is with the Start Collecting boxes, since FW doesn't offer similar bundles for many of their factions, and even when it does, the discounts arent as good.

The bigger vehicles are quite expensive, but compared to what a big GW plastic models cost, again, in 2021 it doesn't seem all that outrageous. I wouldn't compare the biggest FW models to GW's since GW models are never as huge as the biggest FW models. I'd actually wager that Warlord scale GW plastic kits would easily cost close to what FW is charging, simply due to the large number of unique sprues such a model would require.

I dont mind paying a bit of extra as overall FW has better looking products than GW IMO. GW also has a few good looking kits now and then but FW is consistently pretty.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/26 12:49:29


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Gw has pushed plastics to a really high standard both in terms of what detail the moulds can hold (some appear to be better - eg Dropfleet has a lot of superfine detail on their plastics); and also in how they design parts and partings. Some of those really odd looking parts we get today are what allows GW to achieve very dynamic and different poses whilst adhearing to the limits of how plastic is cast.

Resin can have a far greater degree of angles to cast with and still holds fantastic fine details. It still exceeds plastic, but its not the night-day difference that it was 20 years ago

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

mrFickle wrote:
Was just looking at some of the renegade knights and £350 for one, albeit large, model. That’s how divorces happen.

So what is it, is it just the fact that it’s small batch? Once the moulds are made it can’t cost them much more to make the models? And frankly the noise marines I ordered were not as good quality (they needed a lot more work) than one of the more recent GW kits that I have such as start collecting CSM.



Resin casting is much more labor intensive than plastics. Forge World has also always marketed itself as just a little more premium than regular GW products.

That said, these days I feel the prices are getting closer and closer. Looking at you, single-sprue plastic characters for $35+.
   
Made in gb
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

mrFickle wrote:
Was just looking at some of the renegade knights and £350 for one, albeit large, model. That’s how divorces happen.



Brilliant line

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page

 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

Keep in mind you’re not spending all that money to buy a Forgeworld kit. You’re buying a Forgeworld kit, the replacement parts for the defective bits, the replacement parts for the defective replacements, the shipping on the defective replacement parts, and the shipping on the replacement parts for the defective replacement parts.

   
Made in gb
Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Keep in mind you’re not spending all that money to buy a Forgeworld kit. You’re buying a Forgeworld kit, the replacement parts for the defective bits, the replacement parts for the defective replacements, the shipping on the defective replacement parts, and the shipping on the replacement parts for the defective replacement parts.


The Porsche of the GW corp..

You also missed that models tend to explode apart at the slightest touch.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





mrFickle wrote:
Was just looking at some of the renegade knights and £350 for one, albeit large, model. That’s how divorces happen.

So what is it, is it just the fact that it’s small batch? Once the moulds are made it can’t cost them much more to make the models? And frankly the noise marines I ordered were not as good quality (they needed a lot more work) than one of the more recent GW kits that I have such as start collecting CSM.



GW plastics: Put in mould to plastic. Insert material. Press button. Go sip tea. Couple hours later tons of sprues ready to be sold.
FW resin: Guy does what above by hand. Multiple moulds. Also checks for casting errors which are more common in resin than plastic. If mistakes caught redo the casting.

Also FW sells in smaller quantities which means each sale needs to cost more to cover up designers fees etc. You don't expect somebody to sculpt for free after all. And selling more for cheaper runs into above manual labour issue(and at that point you are reaching the point when it's more feasible to simply do it in plastic instead. Plastic good for mass selling, resin for smaller batches).

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Lincoln, UK

GW is really pushing the quality angle as a market differentiator between them and other companies. All the dynamic poses and swirly bits on models are part of that.

Smaller runs are more economic for all the extra weapons and heads and stuff you can buy on FW. Glueing metal to plastic is not fun, so resin is generally a better choice. Metal prices spiked a while back too.

Also, that titan is a summer, or a year's project for a serious modeller and painter. Plenty of people WANT a huge, complicated model that they can pose, paint interior detail on, fit with lighting rigs and scratch-build extras.

Resin is hell on moulds too - I've had a resin models from several companies with chunks of rubber mould trapped in deep details, and ripped off. That means time for a new mould.

I have mixed feelings about FW. Part of the problem is that GW attempts things like large flat panels on vehicles, which you just know is going to warp as the resin cools and hardens. Other companies get round the problem by selling you big chunks of thick resin, or smaller models. My Konflikt 47 spider mech tank has far fewer parts, but less poseability and detail than GW models.

On the other hand, I can buy figures from the likes of Anvil Industry that are cheaper, have more options and zero flash or mould lines. On objective parameters like those, rather than choices of style, Anvil is superior - although again, I'll point out that they make figures with chunkier detailing than FW.

I'm personally happy with a £10 Avengers Quinjet or Hulkbuster Armour off eBay to paint up quickly, rather than a £500 flyer or titan from FW. Many other people do not want that. A plastic Warhound at £150 would seriously test my resolve though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/27 11:29:38


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




FW resin: Guy does what above by hand. Multiple moulds. Also checks for casting errors which are more common in resin than plastic. If mistakes caught redo the casting.

Now you entered fantasyland with that "check for errors" part.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






There’s also the need to periodically replace a resin mold.

I don’t know how often, nor how influenced it is or isn’t by the skill of the caster. But plastic molds simply don’t wear out in the same way as they’re made from steel.

And if memory serves, the caster needs to mix the resin themselves. Bodge that up, and you’ll get wonky casts etc.

   
Made in us
Watches History Channel





IL

(I run a resin casting business)

Resin is a fairly cheap material and has a low set up cost which is why it works well for small batch stuff with a limited demand. The problem is that it’s labor intensive and the molds need constant replacement. Most of the silicone molds will last on average 25-30 casts from it (pulls) after that they need to replaced which means more labor and the silicone is usually significantly more expensive than the resin which is where the majority of the material cost is generated (along with labor)

Since it’s a hand done process it’s very easy to make mistakes and end up with miscast either due to the molds not lining up right or having bubbles trapped in it. Even with years of experience making molds you still can have a reject rate of 10-20% depending on the difficulty of the sculpt. With less experienced employees you could have a reject rate of 30-50%. Additionally if you screw up the resin ratio when mixing it you can cause it to bind up with the mold and destroy it, which can be a very pricey mistake on large models/molds.

Finecast was an attempt to use spin cast resin which is a different (and crappier) version of resin casting and usually has a lot of issues with air bubbles.the key difference is that they can use a faster setting resin but primarily it allows them to use vulcanized rubber molds which will last for several hundred copies instead of 25-30. Forge world uses uses a combination of vacuum and then pressure to remove bubbles and also results in a higher resin density which makes them less brittle than Finecast items. Spincast resin helps cut costs on the labor time with the individual pull times and is a significant reduction on mold costs as they last much longer but it’s needs a much more experienced mold maker or the miscast rate is sky high.

Low volume resin projects are expensive and that’s not exclusive to GW, there’s a huge market for resin kits for Gundam and anime models which are incredibly detailed and well done but also very expensive and can make a lot of forge world prices look tame.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 17:52:52


   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 RedDogMinis wrote:

Finecast was an attempt to use spin cast resin which is a different (and crappier) version of resin casting and usually has a lot of issues with air bubbles.the key difference is that they can use a faster setting resin but primarily it allows them to use vulcanized rubber molds which will last for several hundred copies instead of 25-30.

Small correction here - 'Fine'Cast didn't use vulcanised rubber moulds, at least to begin with. One of the common quality complaints when it launched was from people receiving models with pieces of silicon stuck in the crevasses, torn from the mould. Having said that, that particular complaint did seem to die down over time, so either they switched to vulcanised rubber (or some other tougher material) later or the moulds just got to a point where the parts that caught on models had all been torn off...

 
   
 
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