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Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




So for those who don't know, Drazhar has a rule that lets him fight twice. Unlike most fight twice abilities, this does not specify 'at the end of the phase'.

Drazhar's Rule

This model can be selected to fight one additional time in each Fight phase. It must be eligible to fight each time it is selected to do so.


Let's assume Drazhar charges some random unit and Tormentor's goes off (so they can't use Counter Offensive).

Can Drazhar be activated twice before the unit he charged is allowed to activate? Does the priority from being a charger work on both activations of Drazhar or do the rules require it to be used at non-chargers priority (i.e. normal activation)?
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Tormentors does not prevent your opponent from using counter offensive, because after drazhar fights the first time, all eligible units (which is drazhar) have fought. Assuming drazhar and the enemy unit are the only units fighting.

Tormentors
At the start of the Fight phase, select one enemy unit within Engagement Range of this model and roll 2D6: if the result is greater than the enemy unit’s Leadership characteristic, until the end of the phase, that unit is not eligible to fight until after all eligible units from your army have done so.

Murderous Assault
This model can be selected to fight one additional time in each Fight phase. It must be eligible to fight each time it is selected to do so.
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




 p5freak wrote:
Tormentors does not prevent your opponent from using counter offensive, because after drazhar fights the first time, all eligible units (which is drazhar) have fought. Assuming drazhar and the enemy unit are the only units fighting.

Tormentors
At the start of the Fight phase, select one enemy unit within Engagement Range of this model and roll 2D6: if the result is greater than the enemy unit’s Leadership characteristic, until the end of the phase, that unit is not eligible to fight until after all eligible units from your army have done so.

Murderous Assault
This model can be selected to fight one additional time in each Fight phase. It must be eligible to fight each time it is selected to do so.


Okay fair point on technicality but the point of the question is whether charger's priority carries over to the second activation so just assume the opponent has 0CP instead.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Nothing changes. If drazhar fights the first time, all eligible units (drazhar) have fought, and your opponent gets to fight with his unit.
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




 p5freak wrote:
Nothing changes. If drazhar fights the first time, all eligible units (drazhar) have fought, and your opponent gets to fight with his unit.


That seems to conflict with the rule for chargers however.

Chargers

Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the fight phase. This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.


So I could see it both ways in a 1v1. Let's complicate it.

Drazhar charges unit X.

Succubus charges unit Y.

Drazhar activates once. Drazhar now wants to activate again. Units X and Y cannot activate because "all units that did make a charge move" have not fought. So can he activate twice?
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Audustum wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Nothing changes. If drazhar fights the first time, all eligible units (drazhar) have fought, and your opponent gets to fight with his unit.


That seems to conflict with the rule for chargers however.

Chargers

Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the fight phase. This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.


So I could see it both ways in a 1v1. Let's complicate it.

Drazhar charges unit X.

Succubus charges unit Y.

Drazhar activates once. Drazhar now wants to activate again. Units X and Y cannot activate because "all units that did make a charge move" have not fought. So can he activate twice?


I believe this is correct, but I will not claim to be an expert.

If only Drazhar had charged, then the condition for "all units that did make a charge have fought" would be met after his first Fight combat. In this event that multiple units Charged then he is simply eligible to Fight an additional time an as a Charger, is still eligible to be chosen during the Chargers and Fights First step of the Fight Phase. You still have to make sure to use his additional Fight before using all other Charging units once however, or it transitions to the normal Fight step, though he would still be eligible to be chosen to Fight that additional time.

Again, I'm not an expert and this is just my interpretation of the RAW. If anyone sees differently or has definitive proof to the contrary, feel free to say so.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Audustum wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Nothing changes. If drazhar fights the first time, all eligible units (drazhar) have fought, and your opponent gets to fight with his unit.


That seems to conflict with the rule for chargers however.

Chargers

Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the fight phase. This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.


So I could see it both ways in a 1v1.


There is no conflict in a 1on1. Did drazhar fight first because he charged ? Yes, he did. Did all eligible units fight (drazhar) ? Yes. So, your opponent gets to fight with his unit, because all eligible units have fought. Murderous assault does not say he gets to fight a second time before all other (enemy) units.

Audustum wrote:

Drazhar charges unit X.

Succubus charges unit Y.

Drazhar activates once. Drazhar now wants to activate again. Units X and Y cannot activate because "all units that did make a charge move" have not fought. So can he activate twice?



In this scenario drazhar fights first, and the succubus fights first too. Now unit X can activate because drazhar has fought. The condition that all eligible units have fought is fulfilled. Again, murderous assault does not say that drahzar fights a second time before all other (enemy) units.
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




 p5freak wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Nothing changes. If drazhar fights the first time, all eligible units (drazhar) have fought, and your opponent gets to fight with his unit.


That seems to conflict with the rule for chargers however.

Chargers

Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the fight phase. This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.


So I could see it both ways in a 1v1.


There is no conflict in a 1on1. Did drazhar fight first because he charged ? Yes, he did. Did all eligible units fight (drazhar) ? Yes. So, your opponent gets to fight with his unit, because all eligible units have fought. Murderous assault does not say he gets to fight a second time before all other (enemy) units.

Audustum wrote:

Drazhar charges unit X.

Succubus charges unit Y.

Drazhar activates once. Drazhar now wants to activate again. Units X and Y cannot activate because "all units that did make a charge move" have not fought. So can he activate twice?



In this scenario drazhar fights first, and the succubus fights first too. Now unit X can activate because drazhar has fought. The condition that all eligible units have fought is fulfilled. Again, murderous assault does not say that drahzar fights a second time before all other (enemy) units.


Hard disagree here. Where is the rule says the Succubus must fight before Draz activates again? He is still a unit that charged and is therefore eligible


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SergentSilver wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Nothing changes. If drazhar fights the first time, all eligible units (drazhar) have fought, and your opponent gets to fight with his unit.


That seems to conflict with the rule for chargers however.

Chargers

Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the fight phase. This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.


So I could see it both ways in a 1v1. Let's complicate it.

Drazhar charges unit X.

Succubus charges unit Y.

Drazhar activates once. Drazhar now wants to activate again. Units X and Y cannot activate because "all units that did make a charge move" have not fought. So can he activate twice?


I believe this is correct, but I will not claim to be an expert.

If only Drazhar had charged, then the condition for "all units that did make a charge have fought" would be met after his first Fight combat. In this event that multiple units Charged then he is simply eligible to Fight an additional time an as a Charger, is still eligible to be chosen during the Chargers and Fights First step of the Fight Phase. You still have to make sure to use his additional Fight before using all other Charging units once however, or it transitions to the normal Fight step, though he would still be eligible to be chosen to Fight that additional time.

Again, I'm not an expert and this is just my interpretation of the RAW. If anyone sees differently or has definitive proof to the contrary, feel free to say so.


I think you are right.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/02 07:49:28


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Audustum wrote:

Hard disagree here. Where is the rule says the Succubus must fight before Draz activates again? He is still a unit that charged and is therefore eligible


Ok, let me clarify. The succubus or drazhar fight first, then the other fights, then all eligible units have fought (succubus and drazhar), and unit X can fight. Then drahzar fights the second time. After that unit Y fights.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/02 08:07:02


 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




 p5freak wrote:
Audustum wrote:

Hard disagree here. Where is the rule says the Succubus must fight before Draz activates again? He is still a unit that charged and is therefore eligible


Ok, let me clarify. The succubus or drazhar fight first, then the other fights, then all eligible units have fought (succubus and drazhar), and unit X can fight. Then drahzar fights the second time. After that unit Y fights.


This still seems wrong. Why pick the Succubus? Murderous assault says Draz can be picked again if he's eligible. He. He charged that turn so he is eligible. What rule says you have to pick the Succ before picking him again?
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Audustum wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Audustum wrote:

Hard disagree here. Where is the rule says the Succubus must fight before Draz activates again? He is still a unit that charged and is therefore eligible


Ok, let me clarify. The succubus or drazhar fight first, then the other fights, then all eligible units have fought (succubus and drazhar), and unit X can fight. Then drahzar fights the second time. After that unit Y fights.


This still seems wrong. Why pick the Succubus? Murderous assault says Draz can be picked again if he's eligible. He. He charged that turn so he is eligible. What rule says you have to pick the Succ before picking him again?


Ok, now i get what you try to do. You want to pick drazhar the second time, before you pick the succubus, right ? Drahzar would fight twice, then the succubus would fight, and then all eligible units from your army have fought. Then unit X and Y would fight.This would work.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/02 16:09:14


 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




 p5freak wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Audustum wrote:

Hard disagree here. Where is the rule says the Succubus must fight before Draz activates again? He is still a unit that charged and is therefore eligible


Ok, let me clarify. The succubus or drazhar fight first, then the other fights, then all eligible units have fought (succubus and drazhar), and unit X can fight. Then drahzar fights the second time. After that unit Y fights.


This still seems wrong. Why pick the Succubus? Murderous assault says Draz can be picked again if he's eligible. He. He charged that turn so he is eligible. What rule says you have to pick the Succ before picking him again?


Ok, now i get what you try to do. You want to pick drazhar the second time, before you pick the succubus, right ? Drahzar would fight twice, then the succubus would fight, and then all eligible units from your army have fought. Then unit X and Y would fight.This would work.


Yeah that's it. Sorry for the confusion!
   
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Dakka Veteran






Glad we got that sorted out. There is nothing in the rules that states an order to what units are chosen when beyond the modifiers like Charging, Fights First, etc. or that all units must fight once before units can fight additional times. This scenario was somewhat played out in another thread about models with BftBG and Charging, with the same conclusion.
   
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Tacoma, WA, USA

If he charges, Drazhar will fight both times before any non-charging units per the Fight Again rules in the Rare Rules section.
   
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 alextroy wrote:
If he charges, Drazhar will fight both times before any non-charging units per the Fight Again rules in the Rare Rules section.


Oh, you are correct. I didn't notice that before. It actually specifies this exact situation in the rules.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 alextroy wrote:
If he charges, Drazhar will fight both times before any non-charging units per the Fight Again rules in the Rare Rules section.


But he can be interrupted by counter offensive. Unless that unit is not eligible to fight. Which would be true in this case, because of tormentors.

FIGHT AGAIN

Some rules allow units to fight again in the Fight phase, or fight ‘as if it were the Fight phase’. Such rules cannot be used on a unit unless it is eligible to fight at the time when that rule is used. Remember that a unit is only eligible to fight if it is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit, or if it made a charge move in the same turn. In addition, all the normal targeting rules apply to a unit that is using a rule to fight again (e.g. if the unit made a charge move this turn it can still only target enemy units it declared a charge against or that performed a Heroic Intervention).

If a rule allows a unit to fight again, then it will pile in, make close combat attacks and consolidate again. Treat each time a unit is selected to fight as a separate unit being selected to fight for all rules purposes. This means that after it has fought for the first time in a phase, your opponent can choose an eligible unit to fight with before you fight with your unit for a second time (you need not consecutively use both of the unit's opportunities to fight — unless of course there are no other eligible units to select to fight with). If such a unit charged this turn, it will still fight both times before any units that did not charge. Note that any rule that interrupts the normal sequence of who fights first can be used to fight inbetween the unit's first and second fight.


COUNTER-OFFENSIVE
Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.
   
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 p5freak wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
If he charges, Drazhar will fight both times before any non-charging units per the Fight Again rules in the Rare Rules section.


But he can be interrupted by counter offensive. Unless that unit is not eligible to fight. Which would be true in this case, because of tormentors.

FIGHT AGAIN

Some rules allow units to fight again in the Fight phase, or fight ‘as if it were the Fight phase’. Such rules cannot be used on a unit unless it is eligible to fight at the time when that rule is used. Remember that a unit is only eligible to fight if it is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit, or if it made a charge move in the same turn. In addition, all the normal targeting rules apply to a unit that is using a rule to fight again (e.g. if the unit made a charge move this turn it can still only target enemy units it declared a charge against or that performed a Heroic Intervention).

If a rule allows a unit to fight again, then it will pile in, make close combat attacks and consolidate again. Treat each time a unit is selected to fight as a separate unit being selected to fight for all rules purposes. This means that after it has fought for the first time in a phase, your opponent can choose an eligible unit to fight with before you fight with your unit for a second time (you need not consecutively use both of the unit's opportunities to fight — unless of course there are no other eligible units to select to fight with). If such a unit charged this turn, it will still fight both times before any units that did not charge. Note that any rule that interrupts the normal sequence of who fights first can be used to fight inbetween the unit's first and second fight.


COUNTER-OFFENSIVE
Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.


Yes, this is also true.
   
Made in us
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Vanished Completely

Do like this one, for all the different Rule interactions at play is sweet... but I would have liked the much more common 'immediately.'
Look forward to the arguments over when 'fight with it next' falls on the sequence!

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
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 JinxDragon wrote:
Do like this one, for all the different Rule interactions at play is sweet... but I would have liked the much more common 'immediately.'
Look forward to the arguments over when 'fight with it next' falls on the sequence!


But that would significantly increase his power.

he's exactly the same as Khorne Bezerkers have been since index 8th - he gets to fight twice in the charge priority round, but you can interrupt him after the first swing if desired to counter offensive him.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Just to be a knit picker, who fights first if he is counter charged by a Vertus Praetor with Stooping Dive?
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just to be a knit picker, who fights first if he is counter charged by a Vertus Praetor with Stooping Dive?


Unlike Cult of Strife, Drazhar doesn't have any special 'fight first' rules. So Stooping Dives provision that it fights first, before chargers, likely takes over and let's the Vertus Praetor fight before him.

This is all fascinating. A much more nuanced question than I originally knew I was asking.
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




If that is true, and the Stooping Dive attacks destroy him, does he still get those extra attacks? Nothing in his rule says he can't fight again, after the bike makes it's attacks. Sort of a last stand ability? Hell of a last stand move.
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If that is true, and the Stooping Dive attacks destroy him, does he still get those extra attacks? Nothing in his rule says he can't fight again, after the bike makes it's attacks. Sort of a last stand ability? Hell of a last stand move.


His rule says that he "must still be eligible" so I'd imagine being destroyed would terminate his eligibility. Drazhar players can only wish!
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If that is true, and the Stooping Dive attacks destroy him, does he still get those extra attacks? Nothing in his rule says he can't fight again, after the bike makes it's attacks. Sort of a last stand ability? Hell of a last stand move.


A unit that isnt on the battlefield is no longer in play, and cannot make any attacks.
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




 p5freak wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If that is true, and the Stooping Dive attacks destroy him, does he still get those extra attacks? Nothing in his rule says he can't fight again, after the bike makes it's attacks. Sort of a last stand ability? Hell of a last stand move.


A unit that isnt on the battlefield is no longer in play, and cannot make any attacks.


Tell that to TankBustas with their hammers.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If that is true, and the Stooping Dive attacks destroy him, does he still get those extra attacks? Nothing in his rule says he can't fight again, after the bike makes it's attacks. Sort of a last stand ability? Hell of a last stand move.


A unit that isnt on the battlefield is no longer in play, and cannot make any attacks.


Tell that to TankBustas with their hammers.


Well those are Orks. They don't care about weak 'umie rulez and their sniveling. xP

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 22:47:32


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If that is true, and the Stooping Dive attacks destroy him, does he still get those extra attacks? Nothing in his rule says he can't fight again, after the bike makes it's attacks. Sort of a last stand ability? Hell of a last stand move.


A unit that isnt on the battlefield is no longer in play, and cannot make any attacks.


Tell that to TankBustas with their hammers.
Same thing goes for TankBustas, If they are not on the battlefield they are no longer in play, and cannot make any attacks.

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We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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Tacoma, WA, USA

How about we not rehash that locked thread here? Especially when they are not even remotely close circumstances.
   
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Point made. So we are in agreement then, there is zero precedent for any unit attacking after being destroyed?
   
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Dakka Veteran






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Point made. So we are in agreement then, there is zero precedent for any unit attacking after being destroyed?


For this intent, yes. As the saying goes, "people die when they are killed." And the dead do not fight.
Spoiler:
Unless they become undead, in which case they are no longer dead, but undead, so the dead still don't make any attacks...


To correct you though, there is zero precedent for models that currently counted as destroyed making attacks. There are a number of rules that allow units to either return from being destroyed or take actions and cause effects after receiving fatal damage but before being removed as destroyed. For example, Ultra boy has an ability that allows him to attempt to return immediately after being destroyed, but technically still counts as having been destroyed by the fatal attack for the activation of other abilities (see the Magnus vs Guilliman interaction thread here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/797474.page). There is also the EC ability Music of the Apocalypse that allows them to make a Shooting attempt after receiving fatal damage but before being removed from play as destroyed (discussed in several threads, like this one: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/797922.page).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/04 01:53:46


 
   
 
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