Switch Theme:

Chaos and the garden of good and evil  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca
Stealthy Dark Angels Scout with Shotgun





So, at the risk of appearing to be a political question, should we be viewing all chaos space marines as "evil". I know there are obviously murderer rapist blood and guts total psycho factions out there but, is there any middle ground? Are there any.chapters who simply don't agree with the totalitarianism of the empire? Is there such a thing as (for lack of a better word) a libertarian style chapter who are still inherently good and even fight against chaos, but just don't fly.the flag of the emperor. I know the fluff tends to make everything pretty black and white but I can't help feel like there's some lonely misunderstood astartes out there who get labeled as heretics simply because they don't tow the emperor's hard line on things.

I realize that this sounds very apropos and analogous for modern political discourse (in many ways) but its a serious question. Is there a way.to run an astartes chapter that isn't considered chaos if they aren't committed to Girlymans black and white standards?

Weird question, I know. But I would like to run such a chapter and the Minotaurs seem to be the closest thing we have.

Thanks all.

Dark Angel Neophyte 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Not particularly no. At their core, Astartes are enforcers of the Imperial way and even those who fall to Chaos are very reliant on authoritarianism to maintain order. When an Astartes chapter/company/squad turns from the Imperium it is usually because of something done in the name of the Emperor that they disagree with.
For example, the Brazen Drakes chapter suffered greatly during the Psychic Awakening with many warriors manifesting psychic abilities. The Drakes were forced to execute all of these Astartes until the Chapter Master could no longer continue and started a civil war within the chapter. The Brazen Drakes Primaris Greyshields were executed by their Custodes and Sisters of Silence allies purely because they were guilty by association.
Astartes bonds of brotherhood often lead to friction and conflict with the wider Imperium and it is usually this that causes chapters to turn away.
As for the Minotaurs, they are beholden specifically to the High Lords of Terra. They are more black and white than any other chapter in existence.
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

 Solid_jr wrote:
So, at the risk of appearing to be a political question, should we be viewing all chaos space marines as "evil". I know there are obviously murderer rapist blood and guts total psycho factions out there but, is there any middle ground? Are there any.chapters who simply don't agree with the totalitarianism of the empire? Is there such a thing as (for lack of a better word) a libertarian style chapter who are still inherently good and even fight against chaos, but just don't fly.the flag of the emperor. I know the fluff tends to make everything pretty black and white but I can't help feel like there's some lonely misunderstood astartes out there who get labeled as heretics simply because they don't tow the emperor's hard line on things.

I realize that this sounds very apropos and analogous for modern political discourse (in many ways) but its a serious question. Is there a way.to run an astartes chapter that isn't considered chaos if they aren't committed to Girlymans black and white standards?

Weird question, I know. But I would like to run such a chapter and the Minotaurs seem to be the closest thing we have.

Thanks all.



kinda, with a strong lean towards yes?

the are apparently a few rogue chapters, but the strongly binary view of the imperium ("you're either subservient to the Throne and its representatives, or your a Heretic") tends to drive those less than committed to those standards towards chaos, at a slower or quicker pace.

The problem is that people looking for an alternative to the Imperium tend to rapidly discover Chaos in some form (and it has many forms, and many guises, and says many sweet nothings to get traction) and get corrupted by it, either quickly and openly, or slowly and without realising it (at least until its too late). So, the "with us or your for Chaos" viewpoint of the imperium tends to be self-fulfilling in that most who leave it end up either working with or actively joining Chaos. And space marines basically set loose form the constraints of the Imperial system tend to be quite vulnerable to chaos, with that little voice asking "why, exactly, is a wolf like you listening to these sheep? you could kill everyone in this room without breaking a sweat, why should you listen to them?" tending to get harder to ignore, which leads to arrogance, disdain for "lesser" humans, and the sort of moustache twirling evil we know and love about chaos marines.



that said, the imperium is relatively hands off with the Marines as long as they are doing their job and stomping threats to the imperium. the majority of the Marine Chapters have a much less dogmatic view than the mainline of imperial faith (which itself covers vast amounts of variation without too much difficulty). The Badab war couldnt have happened the way it played out without significant leeway given to the chapters. So a fairly pragmatic chapter who opposes various extreme measures by the other branches of government is quite possible, and has precedent in the lore.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/04 18:47:22


To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





If you want there to be a renegade but not chaos space marine chapter then it exists in the 40K universe, just cos no one has written about it it doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened so make up your own story.

The closest I know of is the soul drinkers, before they were reinstated as a primaris chapter.

They turned against the imperium who they felt betrayed them, were tempted by chaos but rejected Tzeentch but ended up with chaos mutations. But they fit your in between status.



   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Traitor Legions would be diabolically evil if they were fighting against pretty much anyone but the Imperium.

I see the Imperium as worse than Chaos, so the fact that the Traitor Legions think that the Imperium has to go is one mark in their favor. The Imperium has none.
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





The problem is the Imperium's usual approach of "you're either with us or against us." Officially, chapters can be either loyal or not loyal and that's it. Now a chapter could be fighting for the Imperium even though it's officially considered renegade (whoever decided they were traitors could have been wrong after all), but how long could they keep that up? They'd have basically no support and no allies; in the long term the chapter would go extinct. One way this could work would be to have such a chapter working secretly for a powerful rogue trader or inquisitor, since they'd have the means to support a chapter without having to ask for permission. That situtation would probably not last for millenia, but it's a possibility at least.

Other than that, the Legion of the Damned kinda fits the description...
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Also, just to point out that Guilliman is seen as a dangerous radical by many within the Imperium because he stands for the pre-Heresy vision of the Emperor, a secular state ruled by science and reason rather than fear and superstition. Guilliman hates the Ecclesiarchy but knows getting rid of them would start a Civil War. He hates the Senatorum and the High Lords who put their own interests ahead of the greater good (not that one) but can't get rid of them without Civil War. The pre-Heresy Imperium was by no means a good empire but the modern Imperium is so much worse.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Yeah, Ultras and Salamanders have already been shaped into the soft 'radicals' over the last few editions, adding Roboute only strengthens that. That's pretty much as 'shades of grey' that warhammer gets.

As for running a chapter on the table- it doesn't matter. You can declare your chapter is the most progressive forward thinking whatevers ever. It doesn't matter to anyone else or the setting.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





So a couple things here:
1.) "Good" and "evil" are broad, vague terms that arguably don't apply very well to 40k. Even if we accept that such terms are concrete enough to mean anything, pretty much any playable character in the 41st millenium falls under some shade of "evil" by modern standards. Even your friendly neighborhood Salamanders have committed a few genocides when they were ordered to or felt the occasion called for it.

2.) As has already been pointed out, some chapters are "nicer" than others. Ultramarines and Salamanders are more likely to try and protect some civillians than, say, the Iron Hands.

3.) Factions that are considered traitors by the imperium but haven't gone full on spikey armor and daemon-worship exist. Soul Drinkers being a classic example along with (iirc) the Lamenters who are (or at least were) declared traitors by some sources as a result of their seemingly supernatural bad luck. Basically, they keep getting in trouble for caring too much and helping out the little guy too often and whittling down their chapter size as a result.

And then you have the Space Wolves who have come to blows with the inquisition and Grey Knights over the way the latter treated some human soldiers. The inquisitor basically tried to get the wolves labeled as traitors, but the powers that be basically went, "Dude. No. Those are the Space Wolves. Yeah, they're probably a bunch of heretical mutants, but we're not going to go get our asses kicked that hard just to kill off a chapter that consistently kills our enemies for us."

4. Finally, there are some chaos warbands that think of themselves as being loyal to the Emperor or to humanity; just not the imperium. The leader of the Redacted Alpha Legion warband, for instance, views himself as a servant of the emperor, exposing weaknesses in the imperium's defenses to encourage the imperium to overcome those weaknesses and grow stronger.



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




Objectively, I wouldn't necessarily consider Chaos Space Marines evil. I would call them bitter, desperate, but in some cases can be idealistic. The greatest sin I would say of the chaos space marines is that I don't think they have a vision for what to do with the Imperium besides enslave it for their own gains or burn it all to the ground and leave nothing behind. Some warbands may very well be idealists that know that the Imperium is evil and needs to be toppled, and as antiheros decided that daemonic possessions, demonic incursions, sorcery and daemon engines, amongst other atrocities, may be acceptable means to the end they desperately fight for.

The blood gorgons are a fascinating example of a libertarian and individualistic chaos space marine warband. They don't answer to anyone but themselves basically and value their freedom and individualism above all else, and refuse to worship the chaos gods. They really do bring the "No gods, no masters" anarchy slogan to life. I suspect they may attempt to USE the gods for their own gain but they do not submit to them.

Also of note are the fact that renegade chapters still loyal to the Imperium exist, who still fight for it but were declared traitors by the Imperium for various reasons.

It's also a big galaxy where anything is possible, if not simply improbable... I'm thinking of writing a background for my chaos warband as tragic heroes that decided that there was a better way than the imperium, and paid the ultimate price and were run off into the warp, living with the knowledge that the human race is dying one planet at a time with no hope because of how harshly the oppressive imperium snuffs any attempt at innovation and betterment of the human race. Maybe feeling hundreds if not thousands of industrial hive worlds worth of human beings' spirits crushed constantly every single day every single second, with the secret to their salvation hopelessly sealed with them in the warp with their traitorship. Feels a bit like a rip off of the Scourged unfortunately...

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in it
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator






The only faction I can think of that hasn't been mentioned already is the fallen dark angels. They are a split bunch. Some of them consider themselves the saviors of the Imperium and the "loyalist" dark angels the traitors. There's many speculations about what actually happened. Some say the Lion went heretic and Luther opposed him then took the fall, so the Imperiums view of the dark angels wouldn't be tainted by the deeds of the Lion. Or just to save the Lions honor or something. No one knows right now. Some of the fallen are fighting for the imperium though in various 30k era ways.

His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
Made in ca
Stealthy Dark Angels Scout with Shotgun





Thanks all. There is some fantastic information here. This is great and wonderful stuff.

Obviously I need to brush up on my lore. I didn't realize that there was so much "grey area" already. I am a Dark Angels player and I already play them somewhat "ambiguously" (let's say) at times. In my mind, I chalk up the Imperium as having to put up with a lot of secrecy and strictly non-codex compliant organization and behavior due to their extensive service and the loss of Caliban.

At any rate, I first played the unforgiven back in the 80's. I skipped about 20 years altogether but I'm happy to be back playing them again and I think I will play them a bit more edgy than normal from now on. We'll see what the Lion thinks when he returns.

Thanks again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 14:02:14


Dark Angel Neophyte 
   
Made in de
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine





Germany

There are a few chapters that, while being renegades, didn't fall to chaos.

Soul Drinkers have been mentioned already, Knights of Blood are another (Iirc they got wiped helping in the defense of Baal though), and the Ashen Claws should fit pretty well too.
They have some relation to the Carcharodons, which might be interesting for you as well.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

I think you'll find that your biggest issue with identifying neutral/good factions is that the 40k universe is built on various shades of evil. even BL will add just enough good or empathetic characters to keep the narrative engaging, but no group, if looked at too closesly, really never reaches that point of ethical behavior to be defined as 'good'.

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




I almost feel like the imperium and chaos can exist as foils, where one sided sins could highlight the virtues and where the best qualities of both could be combined to form a utopia. There is a libertarian goodness at least in chaos, just as the authoritarian goodness comes from the imperium...

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in ca
Stealthy Dark Angels Scout with Shotgun





The more I think about it, and the more I remember some of my old readings, good, evil, loyalist, chaos really are just labels that the universe has accepted. There really isn't a whole lot of goodness or virtue in the imperium. Its just a set of ideologies agreed upon for their "side" of things to make lines in the sand clearer?. Similarly, there are some factions labeled as chaotic that really aren't strictly evil. The bloodlust, hedonistic, rapist, murderers and daemon worshiping groups aside, there are some "chaos" factions that really don't behave any worse than some imperial or loyalist groups. Not unlike today's politics (and that's as close as ill get to political commentary, I promise) really any ideology that doesn't fall within your sphere of beliefs gets labeled as a heretical or, even just as the enemy. Even the Fallen, going back to my Dark Angels, unless I'm not remembering some important facts,seem to be at times just ambiguous or mysterious in their motivations. I mean, we could still learn that Cypher is working to save the emperor or even all of humanity. This only comes up for me because I can't bring myself to think of many astartes chapters as "good". They do some awful stuff. I think im looking for a chapter who's motivations, while maybe considered heretical by codex standards, could still be working in a more moralistic way for the betterment of humanity. Id like to think maybe even the Alphas are trying to secretly do whats right. Maybe using questionable methods but still, acting toward a decent and noble goal. But they are too easily lumped in with the rapist, blood crazy tyrants (daemon allies doesn't help their PR a lot).

Anyway, thanks for entertaining a philosophical and morale Grey area with me. I have some ideas for a new army now, even if its a home grown renegade chapter of rabid libertarians.

PS - is it a reach to play the alphas as a "noble" faction albeit with questionable and obviously mysterious methods? Or am I reaching too far. You guys know far more lore than I do.

Thanks again

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/11 16:55:44


Dark Angel Neophyte 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






There can absolutely be a faction of AL dedicated to "the Imperial Truth" as it was during the Great Crusade where the Emperor was trying to reunite humanity under his banner. Many saw the Emperor leaving the GC and establishing the Council of Terra as a betrayal of all the Astartes had fought for by putting the future of Mankind into the hands of mortals with limited scope and lifespan. It wasn't just the Traitor Legions that didn't agree with the Emperor leaving the ruling of the Imperium to mortals, in fact, it's still a concept that a lot of Astartes struggle with in modern 40k. It's one of the things Beast Arises did really well, showing the political and personal ambitions of mortals superseding the greater good of the Imperium and leaving it at the mercy of Xenos and Chaos.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 17:29:41


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




We see what happens when Space Marines are left in charge. We see it in the Eye of Terror with CSM on daemon worlds but also within the Imperium on SM homeworlds. The Marines become a ruling warrior caste with the rest of the population as slaves or at best a servile underclass. We also see that Marines are not necessarily any wiser as the internecine wars within the Eye of Terror or the various disputes and conflicts over honor within the Imperium show.

There was a good 2nd edition vignette where a Blood Angel reflects on this issue and ultimately agrees with the position of the Marines being meant to fight and serve humanity not to rule humanity, and saw that pride and hubris as a leading cause of the Horus Heresy.

The issue is basically one of whether the civilian government has control of the military or whether the military has control of the government.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 00:57:21


 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





Sedona, Arizona

The Imperium is so flying rodent gak gakked up that in any other setting it'd be the ultimate, utterly unjustifiable force which must be toppled at any costs.

Fortunately, Chaos is so pants-on-head evil that the Imperium looks cushy by comparison. That's not to say that the Imperium is good (it's not), but that every single thing which is wrong with it is as bad - and significantly worse - on the side of Chaos. While many start down the path of Chaos with benign - in some cases even good - intentions, they invariably fall to corruption, become evil, and become the antithesis to any noble ideals they may have had.


   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

The original Badab War had neutral people on either side. It turns out what their name has more then the 1000 allowed SM and the war starts. What's their name was streached to thin to long so the spread their marines around and nobody noticed.

As the Civil War drove on however it got quite grim on both sides. (Chaharadons are definetivly bad people even if they fought on this good side. Cool colour scheme though.)

Later on what's their name (Astral claws?) had now where to run and ended up in chaos. You can stil find them in the game today.

The way humans are in the 40K setting it is a high liklyhood of falling to chaos if you do not have the emperors light. The 40K setting is not like our world with moral ambiguedy and no good or bad or supernatural forces. Chaos corruption is quite real and an active force in the universe.

   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker




Charlotte, NC

To answer the OP, yes there are renegade Space Marines for one reason or another. Badab War had a few examples from what I can tell, likewise one that has not been presented so far is the Celestial Lions.

IMHO the bigger problem is with GW being so enamored with the concepts of chaos,(I think that they get it from Michael Moorcock) that they are the overpowering boogeyman in both 40K and WFB/AOS. They are so powerful that they can corrupt and augment Space Marines, AND allow for their own daemon hordes to appear in the plane of existence with everyone else. Take that in contrast to the Eldar(and for that matter old High Elf) Gods where outside of an avatar of the Gods of Eldar, they do absolutely nothing for them and even can't save them in the afterlife from Slaanesh. Doing what they do to the fluff really pigeon holes people assuming that they want to run a faction like they read it in the fluff.

With that my general advice is to ditch the fluff cannon from Nottingham and do what you want. It really does not hold a candle with well written Fantasy or Sci-Fi literature. So if you want your Death Core of Krieg to be something close to Imperial Storm Troopers from Star Wars, then go Nuts. If you want your Space Marines to be a renegade chapter, then go for it. That is how my Home brew factions(Space Marines, IG) are going to be.

My Hobby Blog: https://tinylegions.blogspot.com/

http://www.classichammer.com- New Games with old Rules 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The Aeldari gods are dead though. Only Isha (who is a prisoner of Nurgle and still communicates cures to people sometimes), Cegorach (who lives in the Webway and pranks the Chaos Gods), and Khaine (who only survives through the Avatars) are left. They can't save the Aeldari from Slaanesh because Slaanesh destroyed them all. The only one who comes close is Ynnead who technically isn't a full god yet and only exists through the Yncarne.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 14:48:58


 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker




Charlotte, NC

 Gert wrote:
The Aeldari gods are dead though. Only Isha (who is a prisoner of Nurgle and still communicates cures to people sometimes), Cegorach (who lives in the Webway and pranks the Chaos Gods), and Khaine (who only survives through the Avatars) are left. They can't save the Aeldari from Slaanesh because Slaanesh destroyed them all. The only one who comes close is Ynnead who technically isn't a full god yet and only exists through the Yncarne.


Thank you for supporting my point on how ridiculous the mythology is in the Warhammer world. Everyone will eventually bow down to the chaos gods according to GW's cannon.

My Hobby Blog: https://tinylegions.blogspot.com/

http://www.classichammer.com- New Games with old Rules 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




All the factions have potential endgames of their own so I do not see the Chaos gods having an inevitable victory. The Imperium has the hope of the Emperor returning or Guilliman reforming things. The Laughing God supposedly has a plan and a final jest to play on Slaanesh that would somehow lead to Slaanesh expending its power to save the Eldar. The Ynnari place their hopes in Ynnead awakening and defeating Slaanesh. The Necrons are creating their Pariah Nexus to seal off the galaxy from the warp. The Tyranids have their Hive Mind and fleets that threaten to scour the galaxy clean of life and thus starve the Chaos gods to oblivion.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






TinyLegions wrote:

Thank you for supporting my point on how ridiculous the mythology is in the Warhammer world. Everyone will eventually bow down to the chaos gods according to GW's cannon.

First off, , you thought there was any logic behind literal God fights? Slaanesh destroyed the Aeldari pantheon because it consumed the majority of the Aeldari race, beefing Slaanesh to an instant super-boost of power that the weakened Aeldari pantheon couldn't defeat. The birth of Slaanesh caused the Eye of Terror and the end of Humanity's Golden Age.
The Chaos Gods won't ever "win" because they hate each other more than they hate the Emperor. The only time they united was to give Horus his chance and even then they didn't actually expect him to win because his loss would make for a greater long-term victory.
Every move they make is all for the Great Game, everyone is a pawn. Anyone who says they aren't a pawn is still a pawn.
But you can still not fall to Chaos. The Orks have their "faith" as it was, the T'au have the Greater Good (which may or may not now be a warp entity opposed to the Chaos Gods), the Emperor is essentially a God and has his own "daemons" of sorts as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/16 15:21:47


 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker




Charlotte, NC

 Gert wrote:
TinyLegions wrote:

Thank you for supporting my point on how ridiculous the mythology is in the Warhammer world. Everyone will eventually bow down to the chaos gods according to GW's cannon.

First off, , you thought there was any logic behind literal God fights? Slaanesh destroyed the Aeldari pantheon because it consumed the majority of the Aeldari race, beefing Slaanesh to an instant super-boost of power that the weakened Aeldari pantheon couldn't defeat. The birth of Slaanesh caused the Eye of Terror and the end of Humanity's Golden Age.
The Chaos Gods won't ever "win" because they hate each other more than they hate the Emperor. The only time they united was to give Horus his chance and even then they didn't actually expect him to win because his loss would make for a greater long-term victory.
Every move they make is all for the Great Game, everyone is a pawn. Anyone who says they aren't a pawn is still a pawn.
But you can still not fall to Chaos. The Orks have their "faith" as it was, the T'au have the Greater Good (which may or may not now be a warp entity opposed to the Chaos Gods), the Emperor is essentially a God and has his own "daemons" of sorts as well.


Perhaps I was not clear, but I never thought that there was any logic to any of the mythology of the Warhammer World. I emphasized that it was rather one-sided and too bizarre for my taste, but since you mentioned it. How exactly does the Ork gods augment the Orks from the standard Orks that we all know about? Same thing with the Tau, how does that happen? You say that the Emperor has "daemons," which ones are they? Space Marines don't count as CSM are the equivalent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iracundus wrote:
All the factions have potential endgames of their own so I do not see the Chaos gods having an inevitable victory. The Imperium has the hope of the Emperor returning or Guilliman reforming things. The Laughing God supposedly has a plan and a final jest to play on Slaanesh that would somehow lead to Slaanesh expending its power to save the Eldar. The Ynnari place their hopes in Ynnead awakening and defeating Slaanesh. The Necrons are creating their Pariah Nexus to seal off the galaxy from the warp. The Tyranids have their Hive Mind and fleets that threaten to scour the galaxy clean of life and thus starve the Chaos gods to oblivion.


I don't discount an endgame, and that was admittingly hyperbole about the quip of all will eventually follow chaos. However, my original premise is that the chaos gods are the ONLY ones that support their respective followers through mutations and allowing daemons to enter the plane of existence within the game to further on the gods cause. I don't see any of the other gods out there either listed above or not listed supporting their followers in that way. That is my problem with GW's view of mythology. If the Chaos Gods can augment their followers, or send them daemons, then why can't the above gods do the same? If the other gods can't augment or allow help from another plane of existence, then why are the chaos gods allowed to do so? I realize that this is ultimately a marketing campaign to entice us to buy more models, and combined it with style that was apparently commandeered from a few fantasy books over 30 years ago, but it does not cease to bother me that two factions out of how many get preferential treatment from their respective gods in the fluff and the others are out of luck. That is a sign of laziness to me to even have this in order to sell a different batch of models to someone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 01:05:20


My Hobby Blog: https://tinylegions.blogspot.com/

http://www.classichammer.com- New Games with old Rules 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Avatar and the Yncarne are basically Greater Daemons of Khaine and Ynnead respectively. The Laughing God in the background at least seems to lurk in the Webway and maybe even does cameo appearances in Commorragh disguised as a Great Harlequin, and is basically now confirmed to have encountered Lady Malys.

The Sisters of Battles' Acts of Faith was basically thought to be the Emperor nudging events and now the Living Saints are basically daemons of the Emperor.

Basically all these other gods have chosen or been forced to apply their mystical aid in more subtle or limited manner, in a guerilla warfare approach rather than out and out open warfare. However in the novel Plague War the Emperor seems to be taking a less subtle and more blatant approach, channelling power through a young pysker girl and saving Guilliman by basically wiping out a host of Nurgle daemons (not just banishing but totally destroying them).
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator






TinyLegions wrote:

How exactly does the Ork gods augment the Orks from the standard Orks that we all know about? Same thing with the Tau, how does that happen? You say that the Emperor has "daemons," which ones are they? Space Marines don't count as CSM are the equivalent.

Gonna try to clear some of theese things up. Let's start with the emperors deamons. There's really only two imperial deamon groups floating around. One is the legion of the damned and the other is the the sangunior. I think the Sangunior is the only one to be confirmed to be an imperial deamon. As in litteraly made of warp stuff. Basicly he's an incarnation of the legend of sangunius after 10k years of faith. I know there's more to it then that but it serves as a basic explanation. The legion of the damned are either the fire lords chapter (which is an amazing theory) or demonic incarnations of the space marines. Then we have the Emperors deamon princes. These are the super powered saints. Those that seem immortal and have all manner of unexplained powers. As far as orks are concerned it's not clear where Gork and Mork end and the orks begin. Orks are pretty much incoruptible. Yeah there are cases of orks worshipping khorne but very rarely does this happen where the orks don't believe Khorne to be an aspect of Gork or Mork. Orks are natuarally resistant to chaos somehow. They even draw from their horde mentality when channeling psychic powers. This could be the direct influence of Gork and Mork or be a part of their psychology. Either the whole race is protected by the two biggest boys in the warp or the two biggest boys in the warp are protected by the orks. It's not clear either if they bestow gifts or powers, but the orks does display some traits that may or may not be supernatural powers protecting them. Actually it could be argued that the weirdboys psychic powers are more of a channeling of Gork and Mork then it is warping reality using chaos. As for the eldar the avatar used to be far more similar to a greater deamon. Recquiring a live sacrifice (the young king vs possesion), having the demonic rule and so on. Special rules interacting with deamons used to work on the avatar (like grey knights nemesis force weapons). Also weird things happen to all eldar in proximity to their deitys avatars, like all eldars blood lust increasing near an avatar. Nor sure about the current rules though. The Tau are notorius for having a very smal warp presence and no psykers in their empire. The etherials rule using pheremones, which appear to be strictly biological. Not to mention media manipulation. They also havn't been enough really to be players in the realm of chaos. They will undoubtedly get there though.

TinyLegions wrote:

I don't see any of the other gods out there either listed above or not listed supporting their followers in that way. That is my problem with GW's view of mythology. If the Chaos Gods can augment their followers, or send them daemons, then why can't the above gods do the same? If the other gods can't augment or allow help from another plane of existence, then why are the chaos gods allowed to do so? I realize that this is ultimately a marketing campaign to entice us to buy more models, and combined it with style that was apparently commandeered from a few fantasy books over 30 years ago, but it does not cease to bother me that two factions out of how many get preferential treatment from their respective gods in the fluff and the others are out of luck. That is a sign of laziness to me to even have this in order to sell a different batch of models to someone.

Guess I mostly covered this above. The chaos gods are absolutely the most hands on chaos gods. That said the other gods are active and doing things for their followers. It seems though that the connections are not as clear. Often it can be argued it's just biology or luck at play and not chaos interference. I'm going to link an old thread I made listing the 40k gods and their whereabouts.

Edit: Ye olde "updated" gods thread: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745574.page

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 08:47:11


His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The Legion of the Damned are believed to be the Warp Ghost remnants of the Fire Hawks who were lost in the Warp just after the Badab War. Numerous mysterious events culminated in a planet being saved and a tattered banner of the Fire Hawks being found with the motto of their chapter clearly marked, In dedicato imperatum ultra articulo mortis (For the Emperor beyond the point of death). They are literal Angels of Death, showing up only when times are darkest and the Imperium is in dire need.
   
Made in it
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot





Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

There is also the Legion of the Damned which, by all account, is composed by literal SM Demons (at least until they'll be reconned to be a chapter lost in the warp with time-travel shenanigans).

I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it. 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: