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Genestealers to me make little sense for their race,

I was under the understanding that the Tyranids are mindless vicious and primitive species, that do what they do on a primal level following their hunger. Mindless drones, following the hive mind.

And then you have genestealers who are subtle and cunning, and intergrate in to the victim's society. This part doesn't fit in to the vicious apex predator

Also, it means that they need the genestealers to take over a civilization for the invasion to be successful? Doesn't the hive have overwhelming numbers and just one showing up is almost a guaranteed victory even without the genestealers.

Can someone explain this duality to me a bit better.

 Sylhfer wrote:
Genestealers to me make little sense for their race,

I was under the understanding that the Tyranids are mindless vicious and primitive species, that do what they do on a primal level following their hunger. Mindless drones, following the hive mind.

And then you have genestealers who are subtle and cunning, and intergrate in to the victim's society. This part doesn't fit in to the vicious apex predator

Also, it means that they need the genestealers to take over a civilization for the invasion to be successful? Doesn't the hive have overwhelming numbers and just one showing up is almost a guaranteed victory even without the genestealers.

Can someone explain this duality to me a bit better.

From an outside of the lore perspective, Genestealers were invented in concept before Tyranids. From an in-lore perspective, Genestealers were not originally tyranids. They were another species that the hive mind integrated, and can now create in their flesh-vats and that they send out as a scouting organism. Thats why theyre separated from the hive mind (dont have the synapse rule) and in fact, are actively engaged in trying to get AWAY from the tyranids - thats why they serve as scouts.

Its basically, the tyranids conquered a species that offered the most resistance of any other, and rather than obliterating them, they cloned them and spawn units of resistance super soldiers, who understand they have two choices: 1, escape into the universe, inveigle themselves into the host society, and hopefully live out their days as Genestealers, or 2, become conquered by the hive mind and destroyed.

 Sylhfer wrote:
Genestealers to me make little sense for their race,

I was under the understanding that the Tyranids are mindless vicious and primitive species, that do what they do on a primal level following their hunger. Mindless drones, following the hive mind.

Some are. Others are more complex. All are subsumed by the hivemind

And then you have genestealers who are subtle and cunning, and intergrate in to the victim's society. This part doesn't fit in to the vicious apex predator

They aren't apex predators. They're scouts.

Also, it means that they need the genestealers to take over a civilization for the invasion to be successful?

Nope. They send out a psychic signal to lure the fleet, and act as disruptors. Planetary defenses are weakened due to rebellion spearheaded by the genestealers.

Doesn't the hive have overwhelming numbers and just one showing up is almost a guaranteed victory even without the genestealers.

No. It depends on how the space battle goes, and how well the defenders are organized.

The Hive Mind isn't a mindless beast at all. From the basic human perspective, Tyranids are the ravening hordes of gribblies that just want to consume but when you get to the higher levels of Imperial knowledge (Admech and Astartes) and certainly with the Aeldari, they know the Hive Mind is a sentient force capable of emotion, subterfuge and grand strategic thinking. Each of the Hive Fleets has different tactics and mutations not just because of random evolution but because they are crafted by the Hive Mind. It understands how to use resources efficiently and if a world can be consumed without wasted resources then all the better. That's where Genestealers come in. Specially created infiltration organisms designed to undermine the enemy before the main body arrives for consumption.

How can a hive fleet know if it has overwhelming numbers without a scout organism?

 Flinty wrote:
How can a hive fleet know if it has overwhelming numbers without a scout organism?

Genestealers and others are sent out in advance of a fleet. They are there first and foremost to determine whether or not a planet is worth the time/resources of the hive fleet to attack. It can be centuries, even millennia in advance of the fleet. IF the planet contains a sophisticated civilization, then the genestealers work to undermine and destabilize it.

But, the hive mind can detect psychic resonances from...well, no one knows, but vast galactic (intergalactic?) distances - the warp being impossible as it is, there isn't any reason they can't detect it from the next galaxy over. Anyways, I digress. The hive mind can detect the psychic potential and scale of potential food/rivals based on their psychic resonances in the warp. Hence, the hive mind was aware of the scale of humanity, orks, etc. living within the Milky Way. The old fiction stated that the creation of astronomican drew their attention like moths to a flame, although that was from the imperial perspective, so take it as you will.

 Sylhfer wrote:
Genestealers to me make little sense for their race,

I was under the understanding that the Tyranids are mindless vicious and primitive species, that do what they do on a primal level following their hunger. Mindless drones, following the hive mind.

Individual tyranid intelligence varies from species to species, but you can assume that the larger and more independent species such as warriors are at least as intelligent as humans. Some, like lictors and genestealers, are most likely far more intelligent than your average human, especially variants like Death Leper and big daddy genestealers.

You should read up on the Amphelion campaign from one of the old FW products. Basically, there was an entire planet devoted to studying tyranids in their 'natural' environments a la Jurassic Park. Isolated and controlled groups of tyranids in individual paddocks eventually let to the complete loss of the planet, with the last reports from survivors being evacuaed being the appearance of three of the largest tyranid bio-titans.

 Sylhfer wrote:

And then you have genestealers who are subtle and cunning, and intergrate in to the victim's society. This part doesn't fit in to the vicious apex predator

Sorta? I feel like you might be giving the genestealers a bit too much credit here. Infected individuals are really what integrate into society, and they're a slave to their genes. It takes a while for the genestealers to age into their final states, and it's likely they rely on their local control of their cult. Even then, remember that the genestealer cult's primary goal is to weaken an enemy before a hive fleet emerges.

 Sylhfer wrote:

Also, it means that they need the genestealers to take over a civilization for the invasion to be successful? Doesn't the hive have overwhelming numbers and just one showing up is almost a guaranteed victory even without the genestealers.

Can someone explain this duality to me a bit better.

Genestealers both act to subvert an enemy's ability to resist a hive fleet and act as beacons themselves. Once a cult infestation reaches a certain threshold, they act as a beacon that lures whatever local tyranid forces. They're the dinner bell. An infestation large and concentrated enough can even divert the path of hive fleets a la Leviathan.

When a hive fleet arrives, it's usually with overwhelming numbers. Even splinters can overwhelm undefended worlds if given enough time or reinforcements are not available. Not every world is garrisoned to do more than offer token resistance to invaders. On the other hand, if prepared, most of the galactic players can stop even entire Hive Fleets or their massive tendrils cold if they're willing to devote the resources (if only because, by their own narrative design, tyranids exist only to lose).

Plus genestealers make good shocktroops in boarding actions, being small enough to fit in most places while still having claws that can rip through starship hull like butter.

They're a bit of a joke now, but there was a time in both lore and tabletop where genestealers were considered the most deadly close combat specialists in the game.

So are there any stories where a GSC resists the tyranids?

I seem to remember that genestealers were originally in the chaos codex

mrFickle wrote:
So are there any stories where a GSC resists the tyranids?

I seem to remember that genestealers were originally in the chaos codex

They used to turn to Chaos if they were in deep trouble - even Tyranids have been corrupted by Chaos.

One of the recent dexes had the patriarch having its mind masively dominated to prevent resistance when he and his cult was to be consumed - so its maybe possible..

In the recent Campaign Chaos went to great extremes to capture a Patriarch alive.

There's also the case that GSC patriarchs can just corrupt during transition if they end up in the warp (like any human / species that uses the warp for transportation) , cult tenerobus? i believe.

 Sylhfer wrote:


I was under the understanding that the Tyranids are mindless vicious and primitive species, that do what they do on a primal level following their hunger. Mindless drones, following the hive mind.

I think you have some false asumtions there.

Tyranids as a hole is not mindless,and it is certanly not primitive. It is very hungry. And it is very very very smart.

Clasifying tyranids as a race can be a bit tricky. Our definition of a species is that it can have grandchildren that can reproduce. A lot of the tyranids can not re-produce, they are just build en mass by the norn queens. They are somewhat hard to define, and even one tyranid 'creature' can consists of many different organismn. Think of it like the man-of-war that is a yellifish, but realy is a symbiosis of 5 different organisems.

The current 40K theory, and current lore is that it is a gestalt entity. It is much smarter then the sum of it's part. Think of every tyranid as a small computer, and a tyranid with synapse is like a computer with a wifi that conects them all together. When you put all of them together you get a really good super computer.

So a gaunt creature, or a weapon beast might be dumb. The synapse creatires vary a bit. The zoanthrope seems a bit mindles, it just floats and shoots. Warriors are quite cunning. Hive Tyrants are very smart. All of that bleacks in comparison to the collected hivemind witch is very very very smart. (There is some arguments to be made that Hive Tyrants reincarnate, but that is a different topic.)

The genstealer is the ultimet spy. It is quite good in combat. But the real problem is that if they infiltrait a society they trigger some change and they turn into a patriarch. Now a patriarch vary in sieze, but through hypnosis and genetic takeover they take control of a sociaty. Think of it as a Dracula but on a much bigger scale. Several generations later (Think some 100 to 1000 years) the cult is big enough that it can overthrow the world. And that point tyranids will notice it is a beakon and come consume it.

Tyranids do not need this to kill a planet, but it makes it easier. Genestealers do not sit around and wait for the Tyranids to come to them. They get gak done. The Cult of the Four Armed Emperor and Twisted Helix are particularly good at exspanding.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Cult_of_the_Four-Armed_Emperor

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Twisted_Helix






Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
So are there any stories where a GSC resists the tyranids?

I seem to remember that genestealers were originally in the chaos codex

There is one patriarch that sabotashesh a tyranid fleet because it wants personal revenge on a human leader before they get absorbed by the hive mind.

In one senario the tyranids do not eat the cult. Instead the cult follow the tyranids around like fireflies in small ships.

The big planet that tiamat (?) is guarding is one big siren beacon. Andyone who sets foot on the planet sucumbs to join the genestealer cult.