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I don't play Daemons, but friends do; so, here's my suggestion: GW should move some of the HQs of Chaos Daemons to the elite slot.

The HQ slots in Chaos Daemons is super bloated, and the elite slots aren't. For example, for mono Nurgle Daemons they have 10 HQ choices, but only 1 Elite choice. This could be improved by moving certain buffing characters, like the Spoilpox Scrivener and Sloppity Bilepiper, to the elite section.

Counter proposal: Merge all of the different flavours of [Mark] Heralds into one single entry.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Counter proposal: Merge all of the different flavours of [Mark] Heralds into one single entry.

That wouldn't work unless you explicitly and expressly cancelled the "Rule of Three" for the merged Heralds. And you'd end up with a unit entry that was more than one page long.

 solkan wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Counter proposal: Merge all of the different flavours of [Mark] Heralds into one single entry.

That wouldn't work unless you explicitly and expressly cancelled the "Rule of Three" for the merged Heralds. And you'd end up with a unit entry that was more than one page long.

How many Heralds do people need to take? Three should be sufficient.

(Also the Rule of Three is a clumsy patch for problems resulting from the removal of the FOC anyway; and shouldn't exist)

You could fit the rules for the Poxbringer, Bilepiper, and Scrivener as they are now on a single page. Get rid of duplicate rules and unnecessary weapons/differentiation which exist primarily to justify having multiple units, and you could get them into about half a page. Role in some extra options (Palanquin, mount options) and you could plump them back up to a page with far more choices than currently exist.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 solkan wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Counter proposal: Merge all of the different flavours of [Mark] Heralds into one single entry.

That wouldn't work unless you explicitly and expressly cancelled the "Rule of Three" for the merged Heralds. And you'd end up with a unit entry that was more than one page long.

How many Heralds do people need to take? Three should be sufficient.

(Also the Rule of Three is a clumsy patch for problems resulting from the removal of the FOC anyway; and shouldn't exist)

You could fit the rules for the Poxbringer, Bilepiper, and Scrivener as they are now on a single page. Get rid of duplicate rules and unnecessary weapons/differentiation which exist primarily to justify having multiple units, and you could get them into about half a page. Role in some extra options (Palanquin, mount options) and you could plump them back up to a page with far more choices than currently exist.

And if the 9th edition was 4th edition, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

Besides the fact that "I can't imagine anyone needing more than three heralds" is pretty solidly "I can't imagine anyone running more than two factions of Daemons in the same army".

I keep thinking about ways to rewrite the Daemon Codex, and unfortunately keep running into "30k's Ruinstorm is a much better way to handle Daemons, I'd rather do that."

And even if I get over that hump, I still run into "the Faction system separating Daemons and CSM/Renegades sucks" and "we really need proper Renegades rules" and "the Psychic phase should be fundamental to Daemons, but it's really boring in 8/9e" and "the Daemon aesthetic is kind of crippled by sharing models with Fantasy/AoS".

So while Daemon HQs could certainly do with some streamlining (and frankly, the same can be said more urgently for Marines) it's not exactly top of the docket.

how about reapplying the 1st 40k demon rule that each HQ would allow you to take 2 instead. Except try something like:
Greater Daemons count as 1 HQ, Lesser Daemons (all other) count as .5 HQ.

 carldooley wrote:
how about reapplying the 1st 40k demon rule that each HQ would allow you to take 2 instead. Except try something like:
Greater Daemons count as 1 HQ, Lesser Daemons (all other) count as .5 HQ.

That still runs into problems if you want to take 3 Greater Daemons, you will need another Detachment for Heralds. I like OP's suggestion. Move Flamers (but not Exalted Flamers), Bloodcrushers and Fiends into Fast Attack. Move Beasts of Nurgle and Hellflayers into Heavy Support.

39 HQ -> 16 HQ

5 Elites -> 23 Elites

8 Fast Attack -> 10 Fast Attack

8 Heavy Support -> 10 Heavy Support

It's way more balanced in terms of the number of options in each slot. It would also make sense that the slot where you can take the most units in (Elites) would have the greatest number of options in it. Maybe you hate characters and want to see a legion of daemons, that's fair enough. The other issue is what if you don't want a Greater Daemon or a Daemon Prince, but why wouldn't you?

Seems like it'd be simpler to just introduce a Lieutenant-style rule for Heralds taking up fewer HQ slots, or offer a no-slot Herald for each GD of its type, or add Drukhari-style Detachment rules to encourage taking a separate Detachment for each god.

Removing Heralds as a HQ slot entirely means Daemons are effectively banned from smaller Detachments.

RevlidRas wrote:
Seems like it'd be simpler to just introduce a Lieutenant-style rule for Heralds taking up fewer HQ slots, or offer a no-slot Herald for each GD of its type, or add Drukhari-style Detachment rules to encourage taking a separate Detachment for each god.

Removing Heralds as a HQ slot entirely means Daemons are effectively banned from smaller Detachments.

A Daemon Prince is not that expensive.

 vict0988 wrote:

RevlidRas wrote:
Seems like it'd be simpler to just introduce a Lieutenant-style rule for Heralds taking up fewer HQ slots, or offer a no-slot Herald for each GD of its type, or add Drukhari-style Detachment rules to encourage taking a separate Detachment for each god.

Removing Heralds as a HQ slot entirely means Daemons are effectively banned from smaller Detachments.

A Daemon Prince is not that expensive.

At 150 points raw, it's 1/3 of your budget in a Combat Patrol game. It's 2-3x the cost of a basic Herald, or a Space Marine Captain or Lieutenant. In fact, the only faction I can find without a single HQ choice below 100 points is the Adeptus Custodes. Even Tyranids have the Tyranid Prime, at 75 points.

I'd totally support a cheaper version of the Daemon Prince - I remember when they were just Chaos Lords with too many daemonic gifts - but there's a reason every faction has at least one budget option for making a real Detachment in smaller games. That's why Heralds were created in the first place, back in 4e (or Fantasy 7e).

I support this for the Sloppity Bilepiper, and all of the other non-Herald equivalent HQs. Particularly, those that aren't psykers.