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Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




So the 9th edition Melta update really shifted the focus away from a lot of other, frankly, larger problems, and onto a problem that never really existed. Comparitively cheap units with extremely powerful weapons that can be Deep striked into shooting range of your opponent. Granted this isn't the boogeyman it was supposed to be, but it still created an unforseen consequence. Vehicles became almost worthless, given their cost and the ease with which they can be destroyed now for a fraction of the cost.

Scion Command squads with Meltas can do horrific things now, as can regular command squads dropped out of Valks.
Eradicators are what they are, and don't need to be re-hashed. double shooting murder squads with gravis armor.
Dreadnaughts with Multi-melta can be DS within range of anything now. Even closer if you go oldschool with drop pods.
I don't know what Admech has in store for it, but the rumors are bad.

So here if my suggestion: Drop Melta range across the board to 8", or 4" if you want the special rule. This would also apply to vehicle melta. Granted this is only Imperium/Chaos marines only, I don't know how or if this has really affected Xenos weapons yet, or their Melta-like weapons.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I'm not convinced a scion command squad armed with melta guns is actually a problem.

It's a 100-point squad, that deep strikes and does 6 wounds to a standard vehicle profile. Against most vehicles thats gonna be like a 50-60% points return, which for a suicide unit is nothing special.

generally speaking, I don't think there are actually *that* many melta units that are any kind of an issue, compared to the handful that seem to be (Retributors, attack bikes really being the only ones that come to mind atm)

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






Melta's do need a range drop, but not to 8".

16-12" for the non heavyies (so they cant get a bonus from deep strike).

Multi-melta's can drop to 20" (as not many can deep strike to begin with).

Just like the Demolisher cannon, these are weapons that dont need to be having a threat range over 30". They are too powerful to also be a threat all the way across the board.

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Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I feel like giving Melta back that feeling of "This will be extremely powerful, if I can pull it off"

Sorta like when you used to be able to give the Deathwatch Assault Marines dual Melta Pistols (I forget the name)

It's powerful if it works, otherwise they are just a extremely expensive paperweight with no real options.

If you make Melta's usable inside of DS, they become the opposite of that. All I have to do is drop these down and they will slaughter everything they can see in 24 inches. I say make them 7 for special, 14 for regular.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/27 11:32:39


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I feel like giving Melta back that feeling of "This will be extremely powerful, if I can pull it off"

Sorta like when you used to be able to give the Deathwatch Assault Marines dual Melta Pistols (I forget the name)

It's powerful if it works, otherwise they are just a extremely expensive paperweight with no real options.

If you make Melta's usable inside of DS, they become the opposite of that. All I have to do is drop these down and they will slaughter everything they can see in 24 inches. I say make them 7 for special, 14 for regular.


Except that, again, you have not proven this at all. Regular melta on the drop deals a hair more damage to tanks than overcharged plasma, and less damage vs MEQs.

I'm not saying MMs arent currently excessive. They deal over twice the damage of any other competing option when considered against the other infantry-borne heavy weapons. They work on vehicles like Dreadnoughts because you're comparing 1 MM to 2 lascannons, but on units like Devastators 1 MM vs 1 Lascannon is silly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/27 12:42:05


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I feel that the melta range should vary depending on the faction, like eldar fusion weapons should have a bigger range than the ones used by the astra-militarum
   
Made in au
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





Well technically that is the case. The tau ones had an extra 6 inches as is their factions tendency.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Are you proposing decreasing the range of multi-meltas and melta guns? The things that are already range 12, and need to be within 6 for the MELTA rule to kick in, and therefore never getting it out of deep strike? You also mentioned this primarily affecting Imperials and CSM, can you actually list all of the units that CSM have that can have multi-meltas?
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

I've heard lots of complaints about Multi-meltas and Melta Rifles, but I can't remember anyone complaining about Meltaguns.

I also find it funny that after GW extended the range of flamers form 8" to 12" that you think it reasonable to do the reverse for the unappreciated meltagun.
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Scion Command squads with Meltas can do horrific things now, as can regular command squads dropped out of Valks.

Why would you drop Scion Command Squads with meltas out of Valks? They have to stay more than 9" away, same as regular DS. While the melta rule used to be worse, the fact that Scion Command Squads are no longer going to be in melta range makes them worse, not better than before assuming you put them in a Valkyrie.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

I'd like a significant hike in melta weapons' points costs, rather than a nerf. Those weapons are supposed to be extremely powerful, they're not supposed to be spammed though. Current range doesn't seem unreasonable.

I'd also love to remove deep strike and double tap from the game's mechanics (in general, it's not directly related to melta weapons), but it won't happen.

 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




 vict0988 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Scion Command squads with Meltas can do horrific things now, as can regular command squads dropped out of Valks.

Why would you drop Scion Command Squads with meltas out of Valks? They have to stay more than 9" away, same as regular DS. While the melta rule used to be worse, the fact that Scion Command Squads are no longer going to be in melta range makes them worse, not better than before assuming you put them in a Valkyrie.


I'm behind, I must have missed where Valks can airdrop it's models literally anywhere within 3". That's how it was in 8th, where did that change? Oh, I see they made it a Scion Stratagem. I see now. It's 1CP to drop outside 5" of enemy units. I never saw their updates.

Thats still within the Melta special range, if they get the +3 damage buff. That's still pretty ugly. 6-12 wounds on any vehicle without an invuln, for what is essentially 100 points, if you give them a Prime with them, they are re-rolling 1s, and get +1 on the wound rolls.
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Oh, I see they made it a Scion Stratagem.

I didn't know/forgot they made a Strat so you can still do it. I just remember an opponent I played a few times being none too happy about the change because he ran a Catachan Valkyrie army that relied on easy drop charges. You are totally right that it's still a lot of damage. I guess it's a good question about how big the value of getting into melta range should be, should it be a 57% increase or 30% increase?

Multi-meltas kick a little too much butt compared to meltaguns IMO, 5 meltaguns Sternguard is 125 (Company Veterans would be 150) vs 5 Devs with 4 MM is 175 pts. 3,33 hits at D6 damage vs 5,67 hits at D6+2 damage or 11,66 vs 31,19 or 168% more damage for 40% more points, counting the Drop Pod it's 168% more damage for 26% more points. Oof. To get somewhere close to parity multi-meltas would have to go up by 10 points and all meltaguns would have to go down to 5 points.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Blackie wrote:

I'd also love to remove deep strike and double tap from the game's mechanics (in general, it's not directly related to melta weapons), but it won't happen.


At the risk of jumping way off-topic, why remove deepstrike entirely, and how would you replace it for units whose whole thing is ambushing the enemy? Your proposal is weird enough to have me interested.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I think making meltas and bolters so upgunned in 9th really defeated their purpose. They should still be powerful, but Fusion pistol powerful. Anything infantry level is dead within 8". Talking Elites, and most HQs here. Tanks and T7+ units are busted right now. Not rteally sure where to put them, but nerf them and we just go back to plasma spam, keep them as they are and vehicles are still trash/useless. I say nerf their range and bump their costs.
   
Made in cz
Regular Dakkanaut




I'd probably start with reducing the extra devastating melta range to 6" for all types of melta guns, regardless of their max range.

And really, they all should have short-range and long-range profiles just like seismic cannons.
   
 
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