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What are the known 3rd edition changes? I have Ogors, and they are one of the few armies that can do monster mash quite well. I hardly see the need for boosting monsters. Ogor and Ghoul Kings at least have good use of them. Has there been a trend of monster beeing bad I do not know about?
Niiai wrote: What are the known 3rd edition changes? I have Ogors, and they are one of the few armies that can do monster mash quite well. I hardly see the need for boosting monsters. Ogor and Ghoul Kings at least have good use of them. Has there been a trend of monster beeing bad I do not know about?
Articles covering the changes can be found on Warhammer Community:
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Generally speaking most monster choices are sub optimal because their profiles have, broadly speaking, been left behind by the power creep of stat lines. The average model in AoS today is tougher and hits harder than back in 1st edition. Because of degrading stat profiles it takes only a slight shift to tip a monster from 'decent' to 'bad' as not only are they wounded more easily but they deal less damage afterward and are attempting it against tougher enemies. Since monsters have always relied on being super fighty to compensate for their inability to capture objectives this is a particular issue for them.
The two armies you mentioned are exceptions; FEC overcome it by brute force of powerful stat lines and abilities. Anything that has 4 attacks which do 6MWs on a 6 to hit will always be useful no matter what. Let alone if it also has solid overall offensive stats, is extremely fast, flies, heals, has a MW shooting attack, and is either battleline or mounted by a powerful hero option to boot.
Ogors, on the other hand, have strong objective contesting capacity with their monsters. Imagine if your frostlord could have an objective siezed from him by 2 models!
This could be dealt with via adjusting monster stats but that is inconvenient for both sides and comes with it's own difficulties. By doing as they have they are able to broadly give monsters an inherent compensation for their low objective-capturing ability, add in the sort of narrative moments Warhammer and AoS in particular really stakes itself on providing, and provide almost every army with inherent options to counter-play certain effects (like powerful faction terrain). The mechanic also has a self-balancing aspect in that it has diminishing returns when taken in multiple, meaning it does not hand out a massive boost to armies that were already using monsters heavily. It really is impressive work in my eyes.
Niiai wrote: What are the known 3rd edition changes? I have Ogors, and they are one of the few armies that can do monster mash quite well. I hardly see the need for boosting monsters. Ogor and Ghoul Kings at least have good use of them. Has there been a trend of monster beeing bad I do not know about?
There are a LOT of units with keyword Monster when you start to really look, many even have fly are are cheap, in the BoC book the Cockatrice is a Monster for example, a cheap 90pts fast moving fly unit that can easily run up and kill off terrain or stop a unit from using common abilities, players has whole armies of these even lol.
Monster keyword units are not bad, but there are many bad Behemoths or units with Monster keyword, take BoC again, the Shaggoth is way over costed for what it does, will this make it better? No, no it won't. Will it make it consider it more? No, not until I know I can use it spells that i am paying a lot for and I won't die to shooting turn 1. Or the Ghorgon, that thing is terrible....
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/04 02:01:05
You are basically giving more reasons for the change. Boc atm plain sucks fighting with sylvaneth for title of worst army in the game. They need all the help they can get.
There are a LOT of units with keyword Monster when you start to really look, many even have fly are are cheap, in the BoC book the Cockatrice is a Monster for example, a cheap 90pts fast moving fly unit that can easily run up and kill off terrain or stop a unit from using common abilities, players has whole armies of these even lol.
Yes, yes I do. I have flocks of these deadly things. I love the death chickens. And I summon more of them every chance I get. I doubt very much that my opponents want to see these things boosted effectiveness wise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/04 06:41:25
tneva82 wrote: You are basically giving more reasons for the change. Boc atm plain sucks fighting with sylvaneth for title of worst army in the game. They need all the help they can get.
I'm mainly commenting on OP saying
hardly see the need for boosting monsters
showing for some monsters it is a large buff but for others its not, so don't "judge" it off of 1 army and there are many monsters out there once you start to look.
I proxied an army of BoC once and was spam-summoning cockatrice, represented by cardboard circles with a picture of a chicken taped to them. Good times.
Leaks (actual photos from the book) are starting to come out. It's... there are some major changes but ultimately it'll be good I think once the "sky is falling" stuff dies down.
Spoiler:
Matched Play now limits Endless Spells (the photo is in French so trying to determine it). 0-3 in 2k for example. You are also restricted to 1 "Understaffed" (less than minimum?) unit of a given type.
So core battalions are basically 40k's detachments. Only one page was shown but you pick one and it gives you like 1 Leader, 1 Hero, requires 3 of a certain type of unit, etc.it sounds more complicated than it is. There are still the restrictions from Matched Play too so for example you still need at least 3 Battleline in a 2k game, etc.
For instance, there's a core battalion called "Battle Regiment" which allows the following:
Required: 1 Commander (any Leader), 2 troops (Unit that is not Leader, Artillery or Behemoth).
Optional: 0-2 Sub-commander (Leader w/Wounds < 10), 0-3 Troops, 0-1 Monster (Behemoth that is not Leader), 0-1 Artillery.
You get a "Unified" bonus for this which allows one-drop deployment and some other 1/game abilities (it's not clear if you get all of them or have to pick)
What really may shake things up is that Matched Play now has a limit on Reinforced units, which are units that are above the minimum size. For example, in a 2k game you can have 0-4 units reinforced. Battleline units can be reinforced twice (so 2x min size) other units can be reinforced only once. It's also likely that min sizes will change to accommodate this. But what that means is that only up to 4 units can be higher than the minimum size, or 2 battleline units at three times the min size.
Im strangely fine with the reinforced unit change. large horde units getting all the buffs in the world was a known problem for quite a while and this curbs the 3 massive units whilst letting you field all those models (Just as multiple smaller units)
I have more concerns over shooting becoming stronger but I will need to wait and see.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: Im strangely fine with the reinforced unit change. large horde units getting all the buffs in the world was a known problem for quite a while and this curbs the 3 massive units whilst letting you field all those models (Just as multiple smaller units)
I have more concerns over shooting becoming stronger but I will need to wait and see.
Well i have bunch of ogor gluttons i can't legally use　in 2k game.
Not sure if anything else.
there's also hard cap how many blood warriors with goretide you can use.
And funnily enough current　broken armies slip through generally while many casual weak lists fail.
Sweeping restrictions　always screw some armies(generally weak ones) and favours others(generally the best armies). Nature of band aids you add just to force people to change armies for sake if sales.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 15:54:56
Ogor Gluttons are current taken in chunks of 3 with a min size of 3 and max of 12. If you can only triple the min, then you’d max out at 9 as is currently, but I’m willing to bet money that they change the minimum unit size to 6 (which is how the box is sold). They might even change the max size to 18, although I’m not sure anyone would take that is it would be 720 points (as currently priced). Something similar will happen with Leadbelchers too. They are currently minimum of 2, but sold in boxes of 4.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 16:51:05
We mortals are but shadows and dust...
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Wayniac wrote: Leaks (actual photos from the book) are starting to come out. It's... there are some major changes but ultimately it'll be good I think once the "sky is falling" stuff dies down.
Spoiler:
Matched Play now limits Endless Spells (the photo is in French so trying to determine it). 0-3 in 2k for example. You are also restricted to 1 "Understaffed" (less than minimum?) unit of a given type.
So core battalions are basically 40k's detachments. Only one page was shown but you pick one and it gives you like 1 Leader, 1 Hero, requires 3 of a certain type of unit, etc.it sounds more complicated than it is. There are still the restrictions from Matched Play too so for example you still need at least 3 Battleline in a 2k game, etc.
For instance, there's a core battalion called "Battle Regiment" which allows the following:
Required: 1 Commander (any Leader), 2 troops (Unit that is not Leader, Artillery or Behemoth).
Optional: 0-2 Sub-commander (Leader w/Wounds < 10), 0-3 Troops, 0-1 Monster (Behemoth that is not Leader), 0-1 Artillery.
You get a "Unified" bonus for this which allows one-drop deployment and some other 1/game abilities (it's not clear if you get all of them or have to pick)
What really may shake things up is that Matched Play now has a limit on Reinforced units, which are units that are above the minimum size. For example, in a 2k game you can have 0-4 units reinforced. Battleline units can be reinforced twice (so 2x min size) other units can be reinforced only once. It's also likely that min sizes will change to accommodate this. But what that means is that only up to 4 units can be higher than the minimum size, or 2 battleline units at three times the min size.
So some corrections here; the endless spells limit has been around since GHB 2020, and the core battalions are not detachments (they are optional upgrades).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mokoshkana wrote: Ogor Gluttons are current taken in chunks of 3 with a min size of 3 and max of 12. If you can only triple the min, then you’d max out at 9 as is currently, but I’m willing to bet money that they change the minimum unit size to 6 (which is how the box is sold). They might even change the max size to 18, although I’m not sure anyone would take that is it would be 720 points (as currently priced). Something similar will happen with Leadbelchers too. They are currently minimum of 2, but sold in boxes of 4.
I'd expect leadbelchers going to 4, dunno about gluttons going all the way to 6 but I could see it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: Im strangely fine with the reinforced unit change. large horde units getting all the buffs in the world was a known problem for quite a while and this curbs the 3 massive units whilst letting you field all those models (Just as multiple smaller units)
I have more concerns over shooting becoming stronger but I will need to wait and see.
The problem was horde discounts and buff stacking. They removed the former, have heavily curtailed the latter, and then slapped this restriction on top. It's classic GW swinging the pendulum too far in the opposite direction.
But it still makes me chuckle after they were so excited to introduce the horde discount a few years back
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 18:13:21
Bluntly, horde discount wasn't the problem...it's how broadly it was made available. Stormcast shouldn't have had it, except maybe on Gryph-Hounds or Aetherhawks.
Basically if something wasn't natively Battleline? It shouldn't have gotten a horde discount.
Plus "least drops" mentality was a big issue.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 18:46:04
mokoshkana wrote: Ogor Gluttons are current taken in chunks of 3 with a min size of 3 and max of 12. If you can only triple the min, then you’d max out at 9 as is currently, but I’m willing to bet money that they change the minimum unit size to 6 (which is how the box is sold). They might even change the max size to 18, although I’m not sure anyone would take that is it would be 720 points (as currently priced). Something similar will happen with Leadbelchers too. They are currently minimum of 2, but sold in boxes of 4.
I'd expect leadbelchers going to 4, dunno about gluttons going all the way to 6 but I could see it.
Definitely agree about Leadbelchers. Gluttons is weird because they could change it to 4 min, but that makes the box weird with 1.5 units. Not saying they haven’t or won’t do it though. I’m relatively relieved with the changes so far as I have 3x Leadbelcher units of four, 2x Ironguts units of eight, and I’ve built (not painted) 2x Glutton units of six which could be combined for a full unit of 12. I should be pretty good no matter how Ogors turn out. A shame for those less fortunate.
We mortals are but shadows and dust...
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Kanluwen wrote: Bluntly, horde discount wasn't the problem...it's how broadly it was made available. Stormcast shouldn't have had it, except maybe on Gryph-Hounds or Aetherhawks.
Basically if something wasn't natively Battleline? It shouldn't have gotten a horde discount.
Plus "least drops" mentality was a big issue.
Absolutely, and that was my criticism when they introduced it--the concept is not bad but it needs to be applied sparingly in well-considered locations. Which to GWs credit they did get it right for some tomes later in 2nd edition, but that was the exception. Better to dump it entirely IMO, and allow buff stacking to make up the difference. But this reinforcement thing? I can't think of any place or instance where the game is improved as a result of its inclusion.
Lots of really interesting leaks for releases too.
First four codexes after SCE and Orruks are supposed to be Nurgle, Gitz, Ogors and BoC. Three new armies planned: Oathbreakers (Chaos Dwarves), Umbraneth, and Dawnbringer Crusaders (Cities of Sigmar).
Tyrion is coming with River Temple Lumineth models apparently. GSG will be getting a new Scuttleboss on Giant spider, and BoC are getting new Doombulls, Bullgors and Jabberslythe. Redone foot Oogors supposedly too.
OBR are supposed to be getting archers and a foot hero.
Second, they're supposedly for the next three years of AoS releases.
The big test of them will be the GK vs TS box. Purportedly, GW will be doing battleboxes in a new way: one half will get a single new hero/unit while the other will get all new items...starting with the GK vs TS box.
Tyrion is supposed to come alongside of the River Temple units and Umbraneth(Malerions' Aelves) in what was supposed to be the actual second wave of Lumineth items, with COVID, Brexit, and the yanking out from under them power supply issues for GW's new factory having split things into two.
The redone foot Ogors aren't supposed to be a new kit: they're locked in a new SC alongside of new plastic Gorgers and a new plastic Butcher ala the Slaves to Darkness SC. That is supposed to be the model that we'll see going forward for the other AoS legacy factions.
Second, they're supposedly for the next three years of AoS releases.
The big test of them will be the GK vs TS box. Purportedly, GW will be doing battleboxes in a new way: one half will get a single new hero/unit while the other will get all new items...starting with the GK vs TS box.
Tyrion is supposed to come alongside of the River Temple units and Umbraneth(Malerions' Aelves) in what was supposed to be the actual second wave of Lumineth items, with COVID, Brexit, and the yanking out from under them power supply issues for GW's new factory having split things into two.
The redone foot Ogors aren't supposed to be a new kit: they're locked in a new SC alongside of new plastic Gorgers and a new plastic Butcher ala the Slaves to Darkness SC. That is supposed to be the model that we'll see going forward for the other AoS legacy factions.
If the GK/TS pans out, it's looking like that leak may carry a lot of weight.
The GK vs TS box will be a big test for it, but not definitive.
We had rumors of the GK side being all new items since it first cropped up.
I'd say the weight-carrying would be the SC: Ogors. That had some definitive details to it that I'd say would be make or break time, since everything is supposed to be simplified frames.
Leaks have been rather on-point lately, but also incomplete. Like that AoS 3rd edition rules leak that was not really wrong per say, but didn't have parts that are significant and completely change the overall picture. There is also the matter where when talking about a three-year plan the leak could be 100% accurate as to what the plan is now but there is plenty of time for that plan to change for whatever reason.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 21:24:35
Both of my local game stores told me this afternoon that they aren't allowed to order any single copies of the 3rd E. Rule book unless they order a minimum 3 copies of Dominion.
Anyone else heard this from their stores? This is pretty gakky of GW to do.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Last I heard my flgs was being limited to 40 copies of Dominion, so not exactly the best case study...
Our bigger area store is also limited to 40 copies. The smaller store and one I frequent more is limited to 9 copies.
I've decided to backout of buying this box. Sooner or later the full releases of the kits will be out and available. Eventually it's likely the Dominion kit will be split into SC boxes so I just don't think it's worth it at this time for me.
Togusa wrote: Both of my local game stores told me this afternoon that they aren't allowed to order any single copies of the 3rd E. Rule book unless they order a minimum 3 copies of Dominion.
Anyone else heard this from their stores? This is pretty gakky of GW to do.
Why? I've never seen a two-player starter box at the launch of an edition not sell out quickly.
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