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Rather than basing things around Battlefield Roles, things could be based around rarity and keywords reflecting those. So, to meet the minimum requirements for a detachment, you would need to take x CORE units and x CHARACTERS. So, for example, a minimum-size Space Marine detachment could consist of:

1x Captain
1x Tactical Squad
1x Devastator Squad

Other units could be divided into categories by their in-universe rarity for that faction. Something like a Scion/Regimental Stormtrooper Squad would represent, in-universe, a usage of resources that might be unfeasible for some Regiments. And depending on the Warlord, certain options would become CORE - Belial unlocking Deathwing as CORE, for example. This would represent specialized forces in a better way.

Yes, this is inspired by WHFB.

What would be the maximums for this detachment?

Sure. Trick is figuring out the value of X and deciding which armies aren't lucky enough to have their theme represented.

I wouldn't want to see CORE used as a basis for building armies, because it's really inconsistently implemented between different armies. This makes sense, I guess, because it's only intended as a trigger for certain abilities within that army, but it means it doesn't work outside that.

For Space Marines, CORE covers all INFANTRY, all BIKERS, and all DREADNOUGHTS. The exceptions are the Invader ATV, a BIKER big enough to look like a VEHICLE, and the Leviathan Dreadnought, which is Forge World and huge.

For Death Guard, it's much the same, they just don't have any BIKERS. They also ignore Poxwalkers and Cultists; anything that isn't a "Space Marine".

For Drukhari, CORE is all INFANTRY, all BIKERS, and all MONSTERS... but not Mandrakes.

For Adeptus Mechanicus, CORE is all INFANTRY, and all SKITARII units other than VEHICLES. Plus Kastelan Robots within a Datasmith's aura.

For Sororitas, CORE is all INFANTRY, plus Paragon Warsuits.

For Necrons, CORE covers all INFANTRY Troops... and then just Death Marks, Lychguard, and Tomb Blades.

My basic issue here is that sometimes CORE seems to be rooted in mechanics, sometimes in lore.

Space Marines CORE can be described as anything that's "just a Space Marine". That works, but in that case, though, why is the Redemptor Dreadnought a CORE unit, but not the Invictor Tactical Warsuit? In lore terms, they're both a Space Marine in a big power walker, and they're both about the same size. In mechanical terms, the Invictor is less tough and not much shootier, and benefits less from re-roll auras. What's banning the Invictor?

Why are KATAPHRON SERVITORS not CORE in Adeptus Mechanicus? At first I thought it was a mechanical limitation, because their guns were too big and they were too tough and vehicle-like, but IRONSTRIDER ENGINES are CORE, and they're shootier and tougher and faster, so that doesn't make sense. It has to be a lore restriction, because they're mindless servitors - but in that case, why are Arco-Flagellants CORE in Sororitas?

In fact, if Arco-Flagellants are CORE for Sororitas, why aren't Penitent Engines or Mortifiers? They're not any tougher or hittier than the Paragon Warsuits, which are CORE, so it can't be mechanical, but they're not any less sane or well-regarded than the Arco-Flagellants, which are CORE, so it can't be lore.

Why aren't Mandrakes CORE for Drukhari? In lore terms they're independent mercenaries, sure, so they don't make up the "core" of any Drukhari army - but the same is true of Incubi, Scourges, and Courtiers, all of which are CORE, and there aren't any benefits for being CORE that would gel amazingly well with them in the first place.

Necrons have a hilariously limited CORE selection because it seems like they started with the standard "all INFANTRY and BIKERS" and then removed all TRIARCH units (for lore reasons, they're not CORE because they're independent elites), all DESTROYER CULT units (for lore reasons, they're not CORE because they're crazy), and Flayed Ones (again, lore reasons, not CORE because they're crazy)... even though most of the CORE-tagged Necron abilities would work just fine with a broader CORE selection.

Ah. I was assuming RaptorusRex was using the term "CORE" in the AoS/Fantasy sense rather than referring to the Core keyword. The way the term is used across those two systems is sort of incompatible. IIRC, some dreads have the Core keyword, but it doesn't seem like the number of dreads you take should impact how many bikes you can take.

I will note that "rarity" probably shouldn't be a factor either. Terminator armor is rare, but a Death Wing army should still be a thing.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Ah. I was assuming RaptorusRex was using the term "CORE" in the AoS/Fantasy sense rather than referring to the Core keyword. The way the term is used across those two systems is sort of incompatible. IIRC, some dreads have the Core keyword, but it doesn't seem like the number of dreads you take should impact how many bikes you can take.

I will note that "rarity" probably shouldn't be a factor either. Terminator armor is rare, but a Death Wing army should still be a thing.

Yeah, if you were going to reorganise the "FOC" by rarity rather than Battlefield role, you'd basically need to apply your own categories from scratch... and for the most part, Troops = Core, HQ = Lords/Heroes, Fast Attack = Special, Heavy Support = Rare, with Elites being spread all around. I don't think you get a huge amount out of the change, really.

RevlidRas wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Ah. I was assuming RaptorusRex was using the term "CORE" in the AoS/Fantasy sense rather than referring to the Core keyword. The way the term is used across those two systems is sort of incompatible. IIRC, some dreads have the Core keyword, but it doesn't seem like the number of dreads you take should impact how many bikes you can take.

I will note that "rarity" probably shouldn't be a factor either. Terminator armor is rare, but a Death Wing army should still be a thing.

Yeah, if you were going to reorganise the "FOC" by rarity rather than Battlefield role, you'd basically need to apply your own categories from scratch... and for the most part, Troops = Core, HQ = Lords/Heroes, Fast Attack = Special, Heavy Support = Rare, with Elites being spread all around. I don't think you get a huge amount out of the change, really.

But you might get something out dropping the cap on slots of a given battlefield role and making it so that only Troops (or "Core") and HQ matter. So if we assume that a farseer/warlock/autarch on jetbike causes windriders to be treated as troops, and if the only limits within a given detachment is a minimum on HQs and troops, a Saim-Hann player could theoretically take...

* A bike HQ
* Some windriders
* Up to 3 shining spear units
* Up to 3 vyper units

...all within the same detachment. As opposed to now where treating windriders as troops would still leave you short on FA slots for all those spears and vypers in a batallion or patrol.