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Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Generals handbook embargo is over and people have been seeing point increases all over the board for the most part. A clear understanding of the rules is not really established yet, so the picture is unclear.

But where do my fellow ogor players stand upon these point changes?

Ironguts are now more expensive up to 61,25. Compare that to maneaters who used to cost 60. Nobody took maneaters at 60! Not in groups of 4 and 8 at least.

Lead Belcher is 45. Regular ogor is 43,3. Thunder tusks are 90.

I think ironguts are big losers and lead belcher and thunder tusks big winners. We will wait and see Perhaps Iron guts and Maneater are spot on?

Lead Belcher benefit from a lot from the shoot in opponents turn command. And thunder tusks where quite playable showing up in lists. A 40 point increase for a group of four is much less then our other units.

Thoughts?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 07:53:50


   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Mixed bag overall, not hit as hard as some armies so it's probably OK.

Gluttons going minimum 6 is probably the biggest change. Both good and bad. Using only one reinforcement to go to 12 models is nice. Not having the flex to take 3 or 9 when that's what you have points for is rough, will really screw some lists.

Agree Leadbelchers looking really nice and Iron Guts a bit yikes... which is a shame as I have 8 I haven't yet had a chance to field due to not playing games in the last year...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 08:43:09


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





You have couple false premises.

A) it's relative change that matters. Leadbelchers actually got bigger hike. Ironguts got sizeable but looks bit less than average so gain in game. 2" reach is also huge in aos3
B) everybody got price hikes. If unit got 12-14% hike and rules didn't hurt then you aren't doing too bad.

Gluttons hurt(30% hike for 12...and coherency rule), over 6 likely dies.. leadbelchers do look good. 12 could be sweet. Ironguts good. Frostlord is now nuts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 10:16:22


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Well it is stil a bit early to say. But it is a good fundament to start building a standing point where we can start telling what is what. To get some referense points.

I agree that the saving grace for IronGuts is that they have recah 2". They where arguably a bit undecosted where they where. As a potensial battlelline unit they where competly nuts on the damage output. They where not very good on the defense.

I just remember somebody doing the math on maneaters and what ever big you compared them to was just insanely not in your favour. Ironuts costing the same is not encuraging.

The leadbelchers beeing able to shot with that command stratagem is potensially quite strong. Not that leadbelchers are greta shots, but they are ogor stats who can shoot. It has to be good.

Mournfang cavalery is more or less unafected. The price increase is less then the others. And nobody took them in groups bigger then 4, so the coherency rules does not bother them.

Why do you think frostlord is so great? He went up in points. Is it the +1 to hit for beasts or whatnot?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 11:21:27


   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





You can't compare to 2nd ed points though. Baseline changed. Everybody got hit by point increases.

Let's make it this way. Ironguts remain 220. game size people play drops to 1795.

Would that make ironguts worse?

Okay that's not exactly the situation as ironguts didn't get hit by exact average but less than leadbelchers. Average btw was 7.95 price hike. Ogors are tiny amount more at 8.19% which is 0.24% worse than average. Ogors floating around middle of the pack with army average being fairly point neutral. Lumineth, tzeentch, slaanesh, dok, seraphon, skaven are doing lot worse.

And yes frostlord went up in points...nearly everything went up in points! You can't just look "it went up, it means it went worse".


430 to 400. that's less than average so his cost went down in practice. Meanwhile got monster rampages, coherency not issue, heroic actions, general msu theme will make tarpitting him harder. And of course relative point drop...

Very, very, very, VERY few units in the game that didn't go up. Yes. Frostlord went up. 7.5%. Leadbelchers 12.5%. Lumineth wardens 21%. Daemonettes ridiculous 27%. List of units that dropped or held same is very small.

Gw could have done same by dropping game sizes to 1860 or so and adjusted point changes accordingly(so frostlord would have been 390 or so)...but this one is easier way to do it than make players change game si"e

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





Ironguts are still looking like a terrifying battleline choice which some armies dont even have much to slow them down!

Compare that to Ardboyz being 5 man units sucking up the reinforcement points :/ Ironjawz get a lot done per slot!
   
Made in us
Knight of the Inner Circle




Montreal, QC Canada

I only ever really took Gluttons in groups of 6 so no biggie for me. Ironguts going up as well is fine as well. I mean Ironguts can break the face of most things in the game.

I'll have to re-adjust my list of course but I expected that anyway so no biggie for me.

Commodus Leitdorf Paints all of the Things!!
The Breaking of the Averholme: An AoS Adventure
"We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us." -Black Mage 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

One thing I am wondering is what Ogor does for chaff now. Cats went from 40 to 55. Gnoblar seem fine, but they are not so fast. 2 man unit of lead Belcher is no longer an option.

Not just points though I think smaller tables benefit armies with good movement like we do. Reason being you have a huge threat range with move + charge. Now there is less places to hide. I know slow armies benefit because it is less walking. But small table is good for us.

I am really lock forward to undertribes with cannons on smaller table.

   
Made in us
Knight of the Inner Circle




Montreal, QC Canada

I mean I personally use Hrothgorn if I need extra drops. You pay the price of a Hunter but Then get a free kitty and his Gnoblars that can move independently. I dont need them to kill stuff, just sit on objectives.

I'll have to look at all the points but I dont think this will hurt my Bloodgullets all that much.

Commodus Leitdorf Paints all of the Things!!
The Breaking of the Averholme: An AoS Adventure
"We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us." -Black Mage 
   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon




USA

While on the expensive side, a unit of Mournfang with the shields makes an excellent screen. They have 12 wounds, take up a good amount of space when turned sideways, and can bounce MWs back on 6s in close combat. Add on that they can move 11 inches and count for 4 models on objectives if needed. Lots to live there in my opinion

We mortals are but shadows and dust...
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Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
I only ever really took Gluttons in groups of 6 so no biggie for me. Ironguts going up as well is fine as well. I mean Ironguts can break the face of most things in the game.

I'll have to re-adjust my list of course but I expected that anyway so no biggie for me.


Gluttons got over average hike and lose 20% of melee punch.

Leadbelchers are looking sweet. In aos2 damage output was comparable with rend and gun. Now 4 is better than 6 for coherency plus unleash hell. Leadbelchers and ironguts foot ogres in future i think

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




We did very well imo

Ironguts were one of the best units in the game…and now retain that with no penalties for the new unit size rules.

Leadbelchers are decent at 4 man since you ignore new coherency and can boost them to 12 for Unleash Hell trolling.

My favorite unit: frostsabres got hit hard with a 15 point hike from a base cost of 40…but they’re also less important now with the new rules making fights, relatively, less deadly.

Butchers went down 5 which, if all units went up 5-15 is quite a nice boost.

Gluttons…however are a microcosm of our mixer bag. I only ever took 3 or 12 mans. Now you’re stuck with crappy coherency for 40mm 1” range weapon guys which SEVERLY hamper the unit…yet you can take them in 18 man units now and rally them every turn to be a compete troll to your opponents. You also, now, want iron fists since only about half the unit will ever get to fight…when dual clubs were better before.

Also: bloodgullet plus cogs equals 3 spells per butcher
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





One thing gluttons have for them is if you can make general and battleline hard to kill it gives advantage in battle tactics and aos3 seems to be decided more by those than objectives

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I think you may have gotten a mistaken preview of what battle tactics are.

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I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:
You have couple false premises.

A) it's relative change that matters. Leadbelchers actually got bigger hike. Ironguts got sizeable but looks bit less than average so gain in game. 2" reach is also huge in aos3
B) everybody got price hikes. If unit got 12-14% hike and rules didn't hurt then you aren't doing too bad.

Gluttons hurt(30% hike for 12...and coherency rule), over 6 likely dies.. leadbelchers do look good. 12 could be sweet. Ironguts good. Frostlord is now nuts.


Actually relative prices hikes matter far less then the actual value of the hike for fielding armies. Armies aren't based on ratios, they're absolute values.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Actually, neither of those matter anywhere near as much as what this does to the actual lists.

Is the list you used before still viable? What do you have to drop to fit it into 2k? Does dropping that significantly hamper how effective it was? How reliant was it on Battalions?

   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

What I really wonder is how important it is to have low drops in AoS3.

   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Niiai wrote:
What I really wonder is how important it is to have low drops in AoS3.


Not very, in my opinion. As it doesn't make that much difference to who gets first turn, and there are advantages to having more drops in terms of being able to deploy reactively.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Stux wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
What I really wonder is how important it is to have low drops in AoS3.


Not very, in my opinion. As it doesn't make that much difference to who gets first turn, and there are advantages to having more drops in terms of being able to deploy reactively.


Getting to choose who goes first not big difference? Matched play he who deploys first picks. Just like aos2.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Ah my bad, I was looking at the core rules. For matched play (for Battleplans we've seen so far at least), you are correct.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 17:38:17


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Well there's not going to be that many battleplans. But basically if you don't get to use warscroll battallions you are picking who goes first.

Pity. I prefer the rulebook version and might adopt it to my games

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
 
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