Switch Theme:

What im wanting from the new thousand sons codex, opinions?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Been Around the Block





Hi guys im just thinking about thousand sons new codex and what it needs to be able to stand a chance in tournaments as i have a couple booked in for the back end of the year, iv been playing thousand sons for a couple of years now and have tried fine tuning the list to what works for me, but the army as a whole still seems to be lacking in alot of areas.
-Better anti tank
-Better chance of casting powers, probably +1 each turn throughout the whole army so t5 +5 so almost auto casts
-Some better close combat units, maybe rubrics with power swords and a strat to pump the damage up on them and termies
-with the power creep with a lot of t5 and 2w throughout armies and the loss of veterans it would be nice if rubrics and sot got infernal fusillade strat built in (shoot twice with rapid fire if stationary)
-bring back smite spam for thousand sons
-arhiman get some other abilities instead of being a exalted sorcerer with 1 extra power
-magnus get the morty treatment, a 3++ and possibly t8 would be nice
I think if the codex gives us something along them lines we might be able to compete against the new codexs to date. Would love to hear everyone's opinions and what you think we might see with the codex when it drops.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

- 2W and keeping All is Dust
- Better variety of spells, not just relying on Weaver and Glamour
- New units would be nice rather than just half the army lazily ported over from AoS. Rubrics with heavy weapons or a Scarab Occult bodyguard unit for example.
- Magnus needs a boost, similar to the treatment Mortarion got.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





 Valkyrie wrote:
- 2W and keeping All is Dust
- Better variety of spells, not just relying on Weaver and Glamour
- New units would be nice rather than just half the army lazily ported over from AoS. Rubrics with heavy weapons or a Scarab Occult bodyguard unit for example.
- Magnus needs a boost, similar to the treatment Mortarion got.


Not holding my breath on new units but that would be really nice, looking at the other 9th codex's surely gw will give us some nice treats to bring us upto par.. Surely
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




New Units:
  • Add a Thousand Sons Master of Possession-style character, to encourage the use of Tzeentch Daemons, Daemon Engines, and Possessed.
  • Add Possessed (and Greater Possessed?) explained in the lore as captured rivals bound with daemons as slaves/experiments, like the Helbrute.
  • Add the Magister and Ogroid Thaumaturge from Age of Sigmar as a Cultist Elite character and a Tzaangor HQ character, respectively.
  • Add rules for Forge World units: Jackal Occult Blades, Osirion Sorcerer-Dreadnought, Rubric Sarcophagus Dreadnought, Relic Scarab Occult Terminators with access to power axes, power fists, chainfists, lightning claws and combi-weapons, and even Daemon Engine Automata.
  • Random wishlist item: Devourer Occult Subverters, to round out the Sekhmet-Khenetai-Ammitarra trio and give Thousand Sons some speed. A squad of "scout" Rubrics, partly freed from their armour as fiery spirits of psychic energy, led by an assassin-sorcerer. Focused on infiltration and teleportation, Deep Strike denial, acting as a psychic relay, and killing off characters or key units.
  • Add Tzeentch Daemons to the codex; Thousand Sons rely on them very heavily to fill out the roster and add certain capabilities, it'll suck to have to wait for the Daemon Codex before they're updated.
  • Add a Tzeentch-y Fortification like the Silver Towers, or at least give us Eldar Webway Gates. Hell, I'll take the Numinous Occulum or Shattered Temple from AoS.

  • Altered Rules
  • 2 Wounds on Marines and 3 Wounds on Terminators, obviously, and while I dislike And They Shall Know No Fear, it seems to be standard even on traitors now.
  • Effectively rewrite the Psychic rules for Thousand Sons; 9e's treatment of the Psychic phase has been totally uninspiring, so an army that focuses entirely on the Psychic phase needs a soft reset. Nudge them into something like Wyldhunt's Stress rules, or my Inspiring rewrite.
  • Rewrite the Warpcraft Secondary Objectives so that they are a) worth taking, b) maintain the unique, action-based, high-risk dynamic of Warpcraft Objectives, c) don't just trivially screw over Tzeentch and Grey Knight armies with free points to the enemy for literally every unit killed; at least make Suffer Not The Witch Deny-based rather than Kill-based.
  • Add an army-wide mechanic in the style of Contagions, which is not broken by Tzeentch Daemons soup, i.e. "if every unit from your army has the THOUSAND SONS keyword (excluding UNALIGNED and TZEENTCH DAEMONS units)". Sisters of Battle effectively already have "Destiny Dice" from AoS, so I'd suggest either something like "Warp Charges" as part of the aforementioned Psychic phase rewrite, or play up the Tzeentchian-schemers angle with "Secret Agendas" that you can choose each round and complete for bonuses - or merge the two ideas. Or steal Endless Spells from AoS, whatever.
  • Sisters can now shut down every Psychic power on a nat 6 (or nat 5-6). That's kind of awful, huh? So we now need some way to bypass Deny; bring back the old Unstoppable Force rules or whatever they were called.[list]Supplement the army's lack of true long-ranged capabilities with new psychic powers and special daemon rules; long-range summons, delayed casting "orbital strikes" for extra power and range, more teleportation, etc.
  • More "tactical" psychic powers to allow players to locally address the army's weaknesses of speed, melee, etc, as opposed to eight more kinds of Smite-variant (assuming Thousand Sons can bypass Smite limits by default). Buffs and debuffs are key here; things like teleportation, free move, free shoot/fight, Fall Back/Advance and Shoot/Charge, limiting enemy targeting, granting/removing cover, etc. Don't bother with a blast spell unless it does something really different.
  • Give them a mechanic to bypass or refund Reinforcement Points; spend CP or another resource to summon Daemons without spending Reinforcement Points, remove Daemons to recycle Reinforcement Points, etc.
  • Possibly a conditional buff to core inferno guns, like D2 if you're in half range, or RF2 (or just +1 shot) if you Remain Stationary. Dunno if that's really necessary or just powercreep, though.
  • Give both the Helbrute and Possessed additional abilities to suit their role/lore, in the absence of Thousand Sons "Legion" abilities, e.g. maybe they get Heroic Intervention and a Bodyguard aura within 3" of a SORCERER, because they're bound slaves.
  • Give Cultists more to do and more mechanics that interact with them, so they can act as apprentice sorcerers, sacrifices for magic, daemon-summoning cabals, Tzeentchian infiltrators, mutant rabble, or trained Prosperine Spireguard, instead of just being random chaff imported from CSM.
  • Ditto Chaos Spawn, who are a key part of Thousand Sons lore; give them a buff and have more mechanics interact with them. Encourage me to bring along a whole squad of them to create from mutated enemies and sorcerers.
  • This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2021/06/22 17:03:59


     
       
    Made in gb
    Been Around the Block





    RevlidRas wrote:
    New Units:
  • Add a Thousand Sons Master of Possession-style character, to encourage the use of Tzeentch Daemons, Daemon Engines, and Possessed.
  • Add Possessed, explained in the lore as captured rivals bound with daemons as slaves/experiments, like the Helbrute.
  • Add the Magister and Ogroid Thaumaturge from Age of Sigmar as a Cultist Elite character and a Tzaangor HQ character, respectively.
  • Add rules for Forge World units: Jackal Occult Blades, Osirion Sorcerer-Dreadnought, Rubric Sarcophagus Dreadnought, Relic Scarab Occult Terminators with access to power axes, power fists, chainfists, lightning claws and combi-weapons, and even Daemon Engine Automata.
  • Random wishlist item: Devourer Occult Subverters, to round out the Sekhmet-Khenetai-Ammitarra trio and give Thousand Sons some speed. A squad of "scout" Rubrics, partly freed from their armour as fiery spirits of psychic energy, led by an assassin-sorcerer. Focused on infiltration and teleportation, Deep Strike denial, acting as a psychic relay, and killing off characters or key units.
  • Add Tzeentch Daemons to the codex; Thousand Sons rely on them very heavily to fill out the roster and add certain capabilities, it'll suck to have to wait for the Daemon Codex before they're updated.

  • Altered Rules
  • 2 Wounds on Marines and 3 Wounds on Terminators, obviously, and while I dislike And They Shall Know No Fear, it seems to be standard even on traitors now.
  • Effectively rewrite the Psychic rules for Thousand Sons; 9e's treatment of the Psychic phase has been totally uninspiring, so an army that focuses entirely on the Psychic phase needs a soft reset. Nudge them into something like Wyldhunt's Stress rules, or my Inspiring rewrite.
  • Rewrite the Warpcraft Secondary Objectives so that they are a) worth taking, b) maintain the unique, action-based, high-risk dynamic of Warpcraft Objectives, c) don't just trivially screw over Tzeentch and Grey Knight armies with free points to the enemy for literally every unit killed; at least make Suffer Not The Witch Deny-based rather than Kill-based.
  • Add an army-wide mechanic in the style of Contagions, which is not broken by Tzeentch Daemons soup, i.e. "if every unit from your army has the THOUSAND SONS keyword (excluding UNALIGNED and TZEENTCH DAEMONS units)". Sisters of Battle effectively already have "Destiny Dice" from AoS, so I'd suggest either something like "Warp Charges" as part of the aforementioned Psychic phase rewrite, or play up the Tzeentchian-schemers angle with "Secret Agendas" that you can choose each round and complete for bonuses - or merge the two ideas. Or steal Endless Spells from AoS, whatever.
  • Sisters can now shut down every Psychic power on a nat 6 (or nat 5-6). That's kind of awful, huh? So we now need some way to bypass Deny; bring back the old Unstoppable Force rules or whatever they were called.[list]Supplement the army's lack of true long-ranged capabilities with new psychic powers and special daemon rules; long-range summons, delayed casting "orbital strikes" for extra power and range, more teleportation, etc.
  • More "tactical" psychic powers to allow players to locally address the army's weaknesses of speed, melee, etc, as opposed to eight more kinds of Smite-variant (assuming Thousand Sons can bypass Smite limits by default). Buffs and debuffs are key here; things like teleportation, free move, free shoot/fight, Fall Back/Advance and Shoot/Charge, limiting enemy targeting, granting/removing cover, etc. Don't bother with a blast spell unless it does something really different.
  • Give them a mechanic to bypass or refund Reinforcement Points; spend CP or another resource to summon Daemons without spending Reinforcement Points, remove Daemons to recycle Reinforcement Points, etc.
  • Possibly a conditional buff to core inferno guns, like D2 if you're in half range, or RF2 (or just +1 shot) if you Remain Stationary. Dunno if that's really necessary or just powercreep, though.
  • Give both the Helbrute and Possessed additional abilities to suit their role/lore, in the absence of Thousand Sons "Legion" abilities, e.g. maybe they get Heroic Intervention and a Bodyguard aura within 3" of a SORCERER, because they're bound slaves.
  • Give Cultists more to do and more mechanics that interact with them, so they can act as apprentice sorcerers, sacrifices for magic, daemon-summoning cabals, Tzeentchian infiltrators, mutant rabble, or trained Prosperine Spireguard, instead of just being random chaff imported from CSM.
  • Ditto Chaos Spawn, who are a key part of Thousand Sons lore; give them a buff and have more mechanics interact with them. Encourage me to bring along a whole squad of them to create from mutated enemies and sorcerers.


  • Some really interesting ideas there and very doable for gw as most units are already in production, would really like to see some of these ideas come into play, yeah fingers crossed tzeench deamons will be in the codex like you say would be a nightmare waiting for deamon codex, im worried that it will just be 1 new hq model and thats it but only time will tell i guess
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




    samrobo1234 wrote:
    Some really interesting ideas there and very doable for gw as most units are already in production, would really like to see some of these ideas come into play, yeah fingers crossed tzeench deamons will be in the codex like you say would be a nightmare waiting for deamon codex, im worried that it will just be 1 new hq model and thats it but only time will tell i guess
    There weren't any daemons in Death Guard outside of the Daemon Princes and Daemon Engines, so I'm not optimistic. The issue is that Death Guard and Thousand Sons both have a unit of Cult Marines, a unit of Cult Terminators, a unit of fodder mutants, a unique Elite character, and a big hefty Heavy Support thing. Then Death Guard also get another unit of Cult Terminators, two unique Daemon Engine units to replace the Forge/Maulerfiend, four extra Elite characters, a Fortification, and a Terminator Lord. And they also get to keep Possessed, though Thousand Sons get Tzaangor Enlightened in exchange.

    Thousand Sons rely so much more on daemon units to bulk out their roster and flavour, and have excellent lore reasons and mechanical hooks for focusing on using them via sorcery.

    We're also DEFINITELY never going to see rules for any Horus Heresy-specific units in 40k, so don't bother hoping for that. I don't know why - 40k players buying a Khenetai Upgrade Kit are spending the same money as 30k players buying one - but I'd be frankly amazed if FW even bothered to give Thousand Sons a separate datasheet for their Rubric Dreadnoughts, much less gave a nod to the Castellax-Achea.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/22 13:02:17


     
       
    Made in us
    Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





    Without a doubt, the 1000 Sons model range is almost too small to really make a codex. Most of their releases came before GW committed to making the aligned legions independent armies. Rules aside, the model range difference between Death Guard and 1000 Sons is telling. It gets even worse if you pull the age of sigmar imports that were used to fluff out the codex. I doubt we’ll see a huge rubric release so I’d propose letting the 1000 Sons steal from the base CSM Book.

    Call it something like “Tempt With Knowledge”. For every 2 core 1000 Son units in your army, you can take 1 choice from the base CSM book. This would exclude independent characters, the god specific options, and anything already in the 1000 Sons codex. The units would get the thousand sons legion trait so you really lose out on their subfaction tactic in exchange for still getting buff coverage and remaining within one faction.

    If this is too much a further restriction could be no mark of khorne units, or no marks except mark of tzeentch.

    Iron within, Iron without 
       
    Made in us
    Fixture of Dakka





    I'm new to 1k Sons. The two main things that jump out at me as I try to build my first list are:
    1.) I can't seem to find our anti-tank. A few mortal wounds from psychic powers don't seem like a good way to take the sting off of backfield heavy supports, but I'm not wild about relying on getting into melee with expensive monstrous creatures to get the job done either.

    2.) Our rubricae have special rules that, when they came out, gave them slightly more killy bolters and slightly harder to kill bodies. Now, doctrine bolters hit almost as hard (and chapter tactics often make up the difference), and a second wound seems like a better defensive advantage than what we have. Basically, normal marines are beating rubricae at being rubricae.

    So with that in mind, my wish list looks something like this:
    A.) Some sort of devastator equivalent would be nice. Just rubricae with heavy weapons could be fine. Or even just letting us take a squad of our special assault cannons (the name escapes me) might work if you tweaked them to be better at anti-tank. Seems like you should be able to hand a rubric marine a lascannon without issue.

    B.) As an alternative to A, you could give us an "enchanted ammo" rule representing magazines with various types of spells cast on the ammunition. So in addition to having anti-marine inferno bolts you could have a "fated bolt" option that can target characters or ignore line of sight and, more to the point, a round that either acts as anti-tank or sets up other weapons to be more effective against tanks.

    So imagine rounds that cause metal to rust or melt away to mercury granting the attacks of other units during the phase to get +1 to wound against a target vehicle. Or just like, "hyperkinetic rounds" that are strength 7 or 8, 2 damage, but AP 0 so your rubricae can whittle down vehicles en masse similarly to oldschool necorn gauss weapons.

    C.) The cult spells are really cool, but only being able to cast each one once a turn means that I only get to use that cool spell once per turn max. Plus, one of the things I loved about the HH novels was seeing different schools of magic complement each other. So I'd kind of like the option to take different cult spells in the same detachment. Good spells that might have been overdesigned to their disadvantage.

    D.) A rubricae dreadnaught just sounsd really cool.
    E.) So do Senakht-style magic swordsmen with different weapon options reflecting the spells woven into their swords and armor.

    F.) I'd love to see some mortal (non-Tzaangor) psyker options. The aspiring-aspiring sorcerers that have to show they can hold their magic before they'll be considered for expensive organ transplants.

    G.) I'd love for 1k Sons cultists to get some sort of "magic ritual" rule. Maybe an action they can perform that grants a chosen psyker +x to their psychic tests in the next psychic phase where X equals the number of times the action has been performed. Maybe make it a stratagem to use the action each turn. Maybe tie it to a "magic circle" terrain feature/fortification (similar to the Sisters' fortification that lets you use an action to generate a faith point.) I feel like giving your opponent an in-game incentive to shut down the dark ritual is very fluffy.

    H.) Instead of the bonus range on spells, how about expanding that idea into a "metamagic" system? Something like:

    1k Sons ignore the increased difficulty of casting multiple smites. Each time you cast smite, you can modify it in one of the following ways:
    * Increase the spell's range by 6".
    * Increase the number of wounds done by the spell by 1.
    * Deal 1 mortal wound to each enemy unit within 3" instead of targeting the single closest enemy unit. Units containing more than 10 models take d3 mortal wounds instead.

    Just spitballing.




    ATTENTION
    . Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
     
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




    Wyldhunt wrote:
    I'm new to 1k Sons. The two main things that jump out at me as I try to build my first list are:
    1.) I can't seem to find our anti-tank. A few mortal wounds from psychic powers don't seem like a good way to take the sting off of backfield heavy supports, but I'm not wild about relying on getting into melee with expensive monstrous creatures to get the job done either.
    Yup. The Soulreaper Cannon and Warpflamer don't help here, because right now they have effectively the same profiles as the Inferno Boltgun, just better - which means they just make Rubrics better at doing the stuff they already do, and which the rest of the army is already pretty good at. Thousand Sons can rip through elite infantry all day, but their answers to larger models or hordes are lacking. There's no real anti-VEHICLE/MONSTER option for Rubrics or for Terminators; the closest we have is Krak Missiles (1 per 5 Terminators), Maulerfiends (melee range, no Master of Possession or Warpsmith or Lord Discordant or other synergy options), and other VEHICLES taken from CSM (expensive trade).
    Wyldhunt wrote:
    2.) Our rubricae have special rules that, when they came out, gave them slightly more killy bolters and slightly harder to kill bodies. Now, doctrine bolters hit almost as hard (and chapter tactics often make up the difference), and a second wound seems like a better defensive advantage than what we have. Basically, normal marines are beating rubricae at being rubricae.
    Note that it's not just the extra wound that's sent Rubrics backwards; even if they get that extra wound, Marines going to 2W means that D2 weapons have become the meta, which is a body-blow to All Is Dust. Before Marines went to 2W, All Is Dust meant that you needed to overkill Rubrics to avoid the 2+ save, which often meant running into their invulnerable save instead. Now, a bunch of solid weapons for killing Marines also totally bypass the Rubric durability boost.
    Wyldhunt wrote:
    B.) As an alternative to A, you could give us an "enchanted ammo" rule representing magazines with various types of spells cast on the ammunition. So in addition to having anti-marine inferno bolts you could have a "fated bolt" option that can target characters or ignore line of sight and, more to the point, a round that either acts as anti-tank or sets up other weapons to be more effective against tanks.

    So imagine rounds that cause metal to rust or melt away to mercury granting the attacks of other units during the phase to get +1 to wound against a target vehicle. Or just like, "hyperkinetic rounds" that are strength 7 or 8, 2 damage, but AP 0 so your rubricae can whittle down vehicles en masse similarly to oldschool necorn gauss weapons.

    E.) So do Senakht-style magic swordsmen with different weapon options reflecting the spells woven into their swords and armor.
    This is really cool. I don't think it should be Deathwatch style, where you freely swap out - but it could work like Combat Drugs, or like Kastelan Battle Protocols. Perhaps the Aspiring Sorcerer can swap out the "specialist ammo" with a psychic action?

    Wyldhunt wrote:
    H.) Instead of the bonus range on spells, how about expanding that idea into a "metamagic" system? Something like:

    1k Sons ignore the increased difficulty of casting multiple smites. Each time you cast smite, you can modify it in one of the following ways:
    * Increase the spell's range by 6".
    * Increase the number of wounds done by the spell by 1.
    * Deal 1 mortal wound to each enemy unit within 3" instead of targeting the single closest enemy unit. Units containing more than 10 models take d3 mortal wounds instead.
    Feels like you could expand this to all spells, and make each "metamagic" variant count as a different spell, like Eldar alt-spells. Maybe let sorcerers increase the WC of a power to add more metamagics past the first.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/24 15:22:40


     
       
    Made in us
    Fixture of Dakka





    RevlidRas wrote:

    Wyldhunt wrote:
    B.) As an alternative to A, you could give us an "enchanted ammo" rule representing magazines with various types of spells cast on the ammunition. So in addition to having anti-marine inferno bolts you could have a "fated bolt" option that can target characters or ignore line of sight and, more to the point, a round that either acts as anti-tank or sets up other weapons to be more effective against tanks.

    So imagine rounds that cause metal to rust or melt away to mercury granting the attacks of other units during the phase to get +1 to wound against a target vehicle. Or just like, "hyperkinetic rounds" that are strength 7 or 8, 2 damage, but AP 0 so your rubricae can whittle down vehicles en masse similarly to oldschool necorn gauss weapons.
    This is really cool. I don't think it should be Deathwatch style, where you freely swap out - but it could work like Combat Drugs, or like Kastelan Battle Protocols. Perhaps the Aspiring Sorcerer can swap out the "specialist ammo" with a psychic action?

    Good call. Or maybe just let them swap out as a stratagem? Loading some special ammo makes a certain amount of sense as a strat. Plus, I imagine it's hard to change an enchantment on the fly; so they're probably literally loading different magazines with different enchantments rather than augmenting a bunch of spells simultaneously on the fly.


    Wyldhunt wrote:
    H.) Instead of the bonus range on spells, how about expanding that idea into a "metamagic" system? Something like:

    1k Sons ignore the increased difficulty of casting multiple smites. Each time you cast smite, you can modify it in one of the following ways:
    * Increase the spell's range by 6".
    * Increase the number of wounds done by the spell by 1.
    * Deal 1 mortal wound to each enemy unit within 3" instead of targeting the single closest enemy unit. Units containing more than 10 models take d3 mortal wounds instead.
    Feels like you could expand this to all spells, and make each "metamagic" variant count as a different spell, like Eldar alt-spells. Maybe let sorcerers increase the WC of a power to add more metamagics past the first.

    Hmm. Maybe. You'd have to be careful not to let any of the metamagic augmentations be OP combined with a certain base spell, and that in turn would limit what metamagic effects and base spells you could have. Restricting it to smite gives you a fair bit of flexibility, helps a bit with 1k sons' lack of AT, and you don't have to worry as much about the ramifications of making a debuff too long-ranged or whatever.

    Or do you mean just having an "enhanced" version of each spell?


    ATTENTION
    . Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
     
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




    Wyldhunt wrote:
    Good call. Or maybe just let them swap out as a stratagem? Loading some special ammo makes a certain amount of sense as a strat. Plus, I imagine it's hard to change an enchantment on the fly; so they're probably literally loading different magazines with different enchantments rather than augmenting a bunch of spells simultaneously on the fly.
    I was thinking along the lines of:
    Enchanted Munitions
    The bolter shells of the Thousand Sons are each a work of alchemical art, cast from cursed brass and half-real alloys in the forges of the Sorcerer's Planet, where mutant artisans labour over prismatic fires. Ateliers of arcane apprentices etch occult runes into every bolt, hoping in vain that their work will be noticed by the sorcerous masters who set them ablaze with an effort of will.
    Each time an attack is made with a weapon with this ability, it has modifiers and abilities depending on the type of enchantment it is under. At the start of the battle, all weapons with this ability are under the Inferno Bolts enchantment (see below). To change which enchantment a weapon is under, see the Invoke Enchantments action. The available enchantments are:
  • Inferno Bolts: Each time an attack is made with a weapon under this enchantment, improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of that attack by 2.
  • Alkahest Bolts: A weapon under this enchantment has the Heavy type instead of its normal type (e.g. a Rapid Fire 2 weapon becomes Heavy 2). Each time an attack is made with a weapon under this enchantment, double the Strength and Damage characteristics of that attack.
  • Soulseeker Bolts: Each time you select a target for a weapon under this enchantment, add 12" to the Range characteristic of that weapon, and you can ignore the Look Out, Sir rule. Each time an attack is made with a weapon under this enchantment, you can ignore any or all modifiers to the hit roll for that attack.

  • Invoke Enchantments (Psychic Action – Warp Charge 2): Any THOUSAND SONS PSYKER unit from your army can attempt to perform this psychic action in your Psychic phase. When the action is started, select one friendly THOUSAND SONS unit within 6" of the model performing the action and one of the enchantments described in the Enchanted Munitions ability. The action is completed at the end of your Psychic phase. When it is completed, the selected enchantment replaces the current enchantment affecting all weapons with the Enchanted Munitions ability that models in that unit are equipped with.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Wyldhunt wrote:
    Hmm. Maybe. You'd have to be careful not to let any of the metamagic augmentations be OP combined with a certain base spell, and that in turn would limit what metamagic effects and base spells you could have. Restricting it to smite gives you a fair bit of flexibility, helps a bit with 1k sons' lack of AT, and you don't have to worry as much about the ramifications of making a debuff too long-ranged or whatever.
    That's true. I think you could manage it pretty well by using the "types" of power as a limiter (i.e. Witchfire, Blessing, Malediction), though, and I don't really expect Thousand Sons to keep direct access to Dark Hereticus anyway (Death Guard lost it), which would save a lot of potential complexity and knock-on effects.

    +6" range is already available as a universal psychic power buff, as is +1 mortal wound, as is +3" aura radius. Death Guard sorcerers inflict an extra mortal wound on the closest enemy on a Psychic test on 7+, regardless of the power, and Space Wolves can get an AOE mortal-wounds-on-manifest effect from a Relic. Death Guard have a self-heal-on-manifest Relic, Thousand Sons have a "free extra cast on a high enough test" Warlord Trait, Daemonkin have a "gain CP on a manifest" trait, targeting enemies with Smite instead of hitting the closest is already a bunch of psychic powers... I think there's a decent enough spread of precedents to avoid real issues? Or maybe I'm just being wildly optimistic.

    Metamagic
    Each time a PSYKER unit with this ability attempts to manifest a psychic power, before a psychic test is made for it, it can apply any number of arcane transformations chosen from the list below. While an arcane transformation is being applied to a power, that power's warp charge value increases by the amount shown. Note that each combination of arcane transformations counts as a different psychic power, so in matched play games an Aspiring Sorcerer that manifests Weaver of Fates could also attempt to manifest Weaver of Fates with the Twisted Dimensions transformation.
  • Twisted Dimensions (+1 warp charge): The range of the psychic power is increased by 6" (excluding the range of aura abilities or other effects that target all units within a certain range).
  • Prismatic Insight (+1 warp charge): If the psychic power targets the closest enemy unit that is visible to and within range of the PSYKER, you can select a target that is within range of the PSYKER instead.
  • Mystical Pulse (+1 warp charge): If the psychic power creates an aura ability or another effect that targets all units within a certain range, increase the range of that effect by 3".
  • Sorcerous Devastation (+2 warp charge): If the psychic power inflicts 1 or more mortal wounds on an enemy unit, increase the mortal wounds inflicted on that unit by 1 (e.g. D3 mortal wounds becomes D3+1).
  • Baleful Corona (+2 warp charge): If the psychic power is successfully manifested, roll one D6 for each enemy unit within 6" of the PSYKER; on a 4+, that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound.
  • Daemonic Rift (+3 warp charge): If the psychic power is successfully manifested, you can immediately use the result of the psychic test as a summoning roll, as though the PSYKER had used the Daemonic Ritual ability.
  • Sudden Visions (+4 warp charge): If the psychic power is successfully manifested, gain 1 Command Point.


  • Wyldhunt wrote:
    Or do you mean just having an "enhanced" version of each spell?
    Sure, you could also do it individually, power-by-power, although that's potentially a lot more work you're letting yourself in for.

    ...as a sort-of-aside, for me, the problem with Thousand Sons Cults is the psychic powers. On the face of it Thousand Sons Cults and Death Guard Plague Companies are equal. Both get a Warlord Trait and a Relic, but Thousand Sons get a psychic power and Death Guard get a Stratagem. However, an extra Stratagem is a cool bonus for Death Guard, while an extra Psychic Power is a desperately needed lifeline for Thousand Sons, fundamental to how they play. So either Thousand Sons Cults need new Detachment rules to allow you to get a bunch of those extra Psychic Powers, or the Psychic Powers need to be available to all Thousand Sons and the Cults should get something else – a Stratagem, a free Metamagic, whatever.

    This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/25 13:19:07


     
       
    Made in us
    Fixture of Dakka





    RevlidRas wrote:
    I was thinking along the lines of:
    Enchanted Munitions
    The bolter shells of the Thousand Sons are each a work of alchemical art, cast from cursed brass and half-real alloys in the forges of the Sorcerer's Planet, where mutant artisans labour over prismatic fires. Ateliers of arcane apprentices etch occult runes into every bolt, hoping in vain that their work will be noticed by the sorcerous masters who set them ablaze with an effort of will.
    Each time an attack is made with a weapon with this ability, it has modifiers and abilities depending on the type of enchantment it is under. At the start of the battle, all weapons with this ability are under the Inferno Bolts enchantment (see below). To change which enchantment a weapon is under, see the Invoke Enchantments action. The available enchantments are:
  • Inferno Bolts: Each time an attack is made with a weapon under this enchantment, improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of that attack by 2.
  • Alkahest Bolts: A weapon under this enchantment has the Heavy type instead of its normal type (e.g. a Rapid Fire 2 weapon becomes Heavy 2). Each time an attack is made with a weapon under this enchantment, double the Strength and Damage characteristics of that attack.
  • Soulseeker Bolts: Each time you select a target for a weapon under this enchantment, add 12" to the Range characteristic of that weapon, and you can ignore the Look Out, Sir rule. Each time an attack is made with a weapon under this enchantment, you can ignore any or all modifiers to the hit roll for that attack.

  • Invoke Enchantments (Psychic Action – Warp Charge 2): Any THOUSAND SONS PSYKER unit from your army can attempt to perform this psychic action in your Psychic phase. When the action is started, select one friendly THOUSAND SONS unit within 6" of the model performing the action and one of the enchantments described in the Enchanted Munitions ability. The action is completed at the end of your Psychic phase. When it is completed, the selected enchantment replaces the current enchantment affecting all weapons with the Enchanted Munitions ability that models in that unit are equipped with.

    That looks pretty good to me. I was worried that making it an action might be too much of an action economy investment, but basically giving up a psychic power for the turn seems like a good way to do it.

    Regarding soulseekers, chaos marines including rubricae have their own version of bolter discipline, right? Are 2 sniper shots (granted without the mortal wound chance) per rubricae perhaps a bit too dangerous for the more humble characters out there? I'm not sure how long my farseers would last if they had to tank 40 BS3+ S4 shots each turn. Extra concerning if their terminators get to put soulseeker bolts in their combibolters. Maybe change the profile to Assault 1? (You can move and fire relatively easily because you're not really aiming at your target; the spell handles that.) ALso, drukhari used to have soulseeker ammo, so the name is throwing me off. XD


    That's true. I think you could manage it pretty well by using the "types" of power as a limiter (i.e. Witchfire, Blessing, Malediction), though, and I don't really expect Thousand Sons to keep direct access to Dark Hereticus anyway (Death Guard lost it), which would save a lot of potential complexity and knock-on effects.

    +6" range is already available as a universal psychic power buff, as is +1 mortal wound, as is +3" aura radius. Death Guard sorcerers inflict an extra mortal wound on the closest enemy on a Psychic test on 7+, regardless of the power, and Space Wolves can get an AOE mortal-wounds-on-manifest effect from a Relic. Death Guard have a self-heal-on-manifest Relic, Thousand Sons have a "free extra cast on a high enough test" Warlord Trait, Daemonkin have a "gain CP on a manifest" trait, targeting enemies with Smite instead of hitting the closest is already a bunch of psychic powers... I think there's a decent enough spread of precedents to avoid real issues? Or maybe I'm just being wildly optimistic.

    Eh. Maybe. I'm open to it, but it all comes down to the specifics of the execution. If you have a metamagic effect that changes a targeted power to a 3" aura, for instance, that's a pretty straightforward trade-off for something like smite, but an absolute game changer for something like prescience or warp time or Glamour of Tzeentch. Also, if I'm not mistaken a lot of those examples you listed are tied to specific units/characters/warlord traits/relics meaning you might have one or two models in your army with a rule like that. What we're discussing here is potentially having such a rule present on every unit in your army.

    Keeping it limited to smite just seems like a manageable amount of work that gives Thousand Sons a very flexible tool for dealing with a wide range of targets.


    Metamagic
    Each time a PSYKER unit with this ability attempts to manifest a psychic power, before a psychic test is made for it, it can apply any number of arcane transformations chosen from the list below. While an arcane transformation is being applied to a power, that power's warp charge value increases by the amount shown. Note that each combination of arcane transformations counts as a different psychic power, so in matched play games an Aspiring Sorcerer that manifests Weaver of Fates could also attempt to manifest Weaver of Fates with the Twisted Dimensions transformation.
  • Twisted Dimensions (+1 warp charge): The range of the psychic power is increased by 6" (excluding the range of aura abilities or other effects that target all units within a certain range).
  • Prismatic Insight (+1 warp charge): If the psychic power targets the closest enemy unit that is visible to and within range of the PSYKER, you can select a target that is within range of the PSYKER instead.
  • Mystical Pulse (+1 warp charge): If the psychic power creates an aura ability or another effect that targets all units within a certain range, increase the range of that effect by 3".
  • Sorcerous Devastation (+2 warp charge): If the psychic power inflicts 1 or more mortal wounds on an enemy unit, increase the mortal wounds inflicted on that unit by 1 (e.g. D3 mortal wounds becomes D3+1).
  • Baleful Corona (+2 warp charge): If the psychic power is successfully manifested, roll one D6 for each enemy unit within 6" of the PSYKER; on a 4+, that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound.
  • Daemonic Rift (+3 warp charge): If the psychic power is successfully manifested, you can immediately use the result of the psychic test as a summoning roll, as though the PSYKER had used the Daemonic Ritual ability.
  • Sudden Visions (+4 warp charge): If the psychic power is successfully manifested, gain 1 Command Point.


  • These would probably be fine, but I feel like you'll want to use at least one of these almost every time you cast a power potentially adding some complication and slowdown. I feel like it might be better to turn these into stratagems that you use after succesfully passing a psychic test (after any DtW tests). And probably limit them to one effect per power. So you have the sense of Thousand Sons being talented psykers that can augment their powers on the fly, but you also get the sense that doing so is draining. And your opponent will feel like the extra power and complication these rules bring to the table are costing you something in the form of CP.


    Wyldhunt wrote:
    Or do you mean just having an "enhanced" version of each spell?
    Sure, you could also do it individually, power-by-power, although that's potentially a lot more work you're letting yourself in for.

    I'm not wild about that approach; I just thought that might have been what you were going for and didn't want to misread you. Agreed that it's potentially a lot of work and doesn't necessarily work great for every power.


    ...as a sort-of-aside, for me, the problem with Thousand Sons Cults is the psychic powers. On the face of it Thousand Sons Cults and Death Guard Plague Companies are equal. Both get a Warlord Trait and a Relic, but Thousand Sons get a psychic power and Death Guard get a Stratagem. However, an extra Stratagem is a cool bonus for Death Guard, while an extra Psychic Power is a desperately needed lifeline for Thousand Sons, fundamental to how they play. So either Thousand Sons Cults need new Detachment rules to allow you to get a bunch of those extra Psychic Powers, or the Psychic Powers need to be available to all Thousand Sons and the Cults should get something else – a Stratagem, a free Metamagic, whatever.

    Yeah. Feels like the cults were basically an experiment in giving Thousand Sons a reason to field multiple detachments that didn't factor in the way detachment building would work in 9th. I'm hoping they just turn the cult powers into their own discipline not tied down to specific cults. That actually fits the picture painted in the HH and Ahriman novels better than everyone in your army being part of a single cult. It makes sense that the 'sons would be smart and few in number enough to have the illusion guy and the fireball guy hanging out together on the same mission.


    ATTENTION
    . Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
     
       
    Made in gb
    Fresh-Faced New User




    RevlidRas wrote:
    I was thinking along the lines of:
    Enchanted Munitions
    The bolter shells of the Thousand Sons are each a work of alchemical art, cast from cursed brass and half-real alloys in the forges of the Sorcerer's Planet, where mutant artisans labour over prismatic fires. Ateliers of arcane apprentices etch occult runes into every bolt, hoping in vain that their work will be noticed by the sorcerous masters who set them ablaze with an effort of will.
    Each time an attack is made with a weapon with this ability, it has modifiers and abilities depending on the type of enchantment it is under. At the start of the battle, all weapons with this ability are under the Inferno Bolts enchantment (see below). To change which enchantment a weapon is under, see the Invoke Enchantments action. The available enchantments are:
  • Inferno Bolts: Each time an attack is made with a weapon under this enchantment, improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of that attack by 2.
  • Alkahest Bolts: A weapon under this enchantment has the Heavy type instead of its normal type (e.g. a Rapid Fire 2 weapon becomes Heavy 2). Each time an attack is made with a weapon under this enchantment, double the Strength and Damage characteristics of that attack.
  • Soulseeker Bolts: Each time you select a target for a weapon under this enchantment, add 12" to the Range characteristic of that weapon, and you can ignore the Look Out, Sir rule. Each time an attack is made with a weapon under this enchantment, you can ignore any or all modifiers to the hit roll for that attack.
  • .


    That is the easiest option for expanding Rubics and Scarab Terminators offensively without actually offering anything new model wise and does seem to fit well with their background, a lesser upgrade could be a strat along the same lines I spose making bolt guns better anti armor. Bumping the range of warpfire flamers up 12 inchs would help make them a better option as well.

       
    Made in us
    Fixture of Dakka





    Would 12" warpfire flamers be a bit too much given that you could stuff a rubric squad full of them and then re-deepstrike said squad?


    ATTENTION
    . Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
     
       
    Made in gb
    Fresh-Faced New User




    Wyldhunt wrote:
    Would 12" warpfire flamers be a bit too much given that you could stuff a rubric squad full of them and then re-deepstrike said squad?


    Maybe shift it to 1 flamer for every 2 marines? there are other units in the game were you can have that number of flamers(equivlent) or more with 12 inch range in the same unit.

    The extra av you get in trade off for the lower range with warpflamers just seems like its become less effective now that both overwatch is more limited and a lot of units are getting boosted in toughness, wounds or invuls. Flamers do seem pretty central to TS lore so having them as one of their big advantages doesnt seem out of line to me.

    This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/14 08:50:10


     
       
     
    Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
    Go to: