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They should all double strength and be -3 or more to save. Eldar just suck without this for so many units. Looking at you power swords / howling banshees. They hardly kill anything and then get chewed to pieces when the enemy hits back. When Orks and Primaris get T5 then Eldar and other S3 armies won’t really even wound them in hand to hand. It’s pretty stupid to think if you’re swinging a damn sword it’s odds of wounding are the same as if you were throwing a punch.

No

Echoing Valkyrie here-that's a pretty excessive buff, unless you also want to significantly increase the cost of any Power Weapon model.

Which is not to say Howling Banshees don't need buffs, but saying "This unit has Power Swords and is bad" is no reason to make all Power Swords massively better.

Power weapons are supposed to be a lot deadlier

warpedpig wrote:
Power weapons are supposed to be a lot deadlier

I think the main issue is that they're D1 and Marines got W2 across the board.

It used to work like this, for S3 models in 8th edition:

Power Sword
Wounded on a 5, but Marine only had a 1/6 chance of avoiding death on a wound.

Power Axe
Wounded on a 4, but Marine only had a 1/3 chance of avoiding death on a wound.

Power Maul/Staff
Wounded on a 3, but Marine only had a 1/2 chance of avoiding death on a wound.

And all were similar enough that you could probably consolidate them into one generic Power Weapon entry and lose virtually nothing.

Now, though, you need twice as many failed saves to kill a Marine, which are a very common opponent.

warpedpig wrote:
Power weapons are supposed to be a lot deadlier

Umm...no? They're already pretty deadly to begin with. If your Banshees aren't hurting anything with their Power Swords, then you're probably choosing your targets wrong.

What good is a power sword if it can’t even wound a damn enemy with a toughness of 5


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It was better when in previous editions they had more of a premium and were less common it felt. But if they got first strike they cut down most targets easily. This rewarded clever deployment and movement. Bringing initiative back would be good. Elite troops should get first swing

Have I missed something? A banshee with a powersword still wounds T5 in a 5+, doesn't it? And double strength would also mean Power weapon wearing SM (or Catachan IG for that matter) would wound tanks on a 4+... and most infantry on a 2+. I'm not sure that I feel comfortable with that.

warpedpig wrote:
What good is a power sword if it can’t even wound a damn enemy with a toughness of 5


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It was better when in previous editions they had more of a premium and were less common it felt. But if they got first strike they cut down most targets easily. This rewarded clever deployment and movement. Bringing initiative back would be good. Elite troops should get first swing

How are you killing things easier in previous editions? They didn't get the strength bonus, and if anything it would have been harder to wound T5 anyway. But yeah let's let my Catachan sergeant wound Leman Russes on 4+. My Custodians will be very grateful as they can now wound Reavers on 3+

Ciaphas Cain killed a Black Legionaire champion with a chainsword!

Chainswords should all be S9 AP5 D6+6.

This is silly.

Blame the stat line not the weapon, Banshees have been cut/paste for a fair few editions now and that A2 is starting to show especially in a 2W world, bumping them to 3 and the Exarch to 4 would be a good start to fixing them, and maybe d2 on a 6, either baked in or as an Exarch power

Here's an idea... what if power weapons conferred a set Strength value rather than a +S bonus? Seeing as how it works, with the energy it emits disrupting the molecules of whatever it hits, it makes sense that it would do about the same damage no matter how hard you smash it into someone's face.

So, for example:

Power sword - S: 5; AP: -3; D: 1

Power axe - S: 6; AP: -2; D: 1

Power maul - S: 7; AP: -1; D: 1

Power fist - S: 8; AP: -3; D: 2; subtract 1 from hit rolls when using this weapon

Because no one, NO ONE, wants 35pt CCs or Platoon leaders running around wielding S8 attacks. Let alone SGTs thowing S5 shade. Nope. Don't even want to think of the Lord Commissar murder squads running around with their plasma pistols and S8 Power fists.

mr. peasant wrote:
Here's an idea... what if power weapons conferred a set Strength value rather than a +S bonus? Seeing as how it works, with the energy it emits disrupting the molecules of whatever it hits, it makes sense that it would do about the same damage no matter how hard you smash it into someone's face.

So, for example:

Power sword - S: 5; AP: -3; D: 1

Power axe - S: 6; AP: -2; D: 1

Power maul - S: 7; AP: -1; D: 1

Power fist - S: 8; AP: -3; D: 2; subtract 1 from hit rolls when using this weapon

Don't know if you meant this intentionally or not, but that's almost exactly the stats for power weapons back in 2nd ed... (except the maul).

Back when melee weapons had their own strength values.

Marines and banshees both were S5 when wielding a power sword. Power axes were variable depending on whether you wanted to wield them one handed or two handed.

That would work for me.

Not a fan of the initial pitch. This is definitely in the category of "sweeping changes intended to solve a relatively specific problem and causes more harm than good in the process." For most S3 units, a power sword means you get +1 to wound against just about everything that isn't T5 or T8+ while also getting a big boost to your AP. That's a decent place for power swords to be in.

Speaking as someone who mainly plays craftworlders and who fields at least one squad of banshees in almost every game, power swords are no longer a huge problem. Wounding T4 half the time and T3 2/3rds of the time isn't bad. A power sword on a hawk exarch or autarch (especially combined with Hunters of Ancient Relics and some sort of reroll effect) is enough to make me consider maybe possibly charging in against enemy units that aren't especially good in melee. Again, that's a pretty good place for the swords to be. The problem with banshees specifically is just their raw number of attacks. Now that sweeping advance isn't a thing, they simply don't have the volume of attacks needed to clear their way through most units. 5 banshees including an exarch has 11 attacks meaning they'd need to hit/wound with almost every attack AND have the enemy fail all their saves in order to kill their way through a 5 man tactical marine squad in a single turn. Ditto trying to clear through 10 termagaunts or guardsmen (and they're doomed to get bogged down against a larger squad). Though I suppose morale helps out against the guardsmen. The quality of each individual attack is fine. They just need more of them. My banshees feel like they accomplish about as much as I expect out of them when they're benefitting form Hunters of Ancient relics. And I suspect they'll get the drukkhari treatment and end up with +1 Attacks across the board when they get a new codex.

I guess you could argue that creating a "banshee sword" that is S6 instead of S4 could up their efficiency against marines to achieve roughly the same thing as giving them more attacks. However, you'd also be upping their efficiency against some weird things like certain vehicles that don't seem like they should be a great target for banshees. The Empower psychic power currently accomplishes basically the same thing as your proposal, but Empowered banshees still kind of bounce off of marines and still get bogged down by termagaunts.

As for helping against T5 orks... Going to T5 is going to make orks a bit more durable against banshees again, but banshees aren't even very good against orks now. Going from bad to terrible against a suboptimal target seems like a relatively minor concern. And again, more attacks could help address that problem in a simpler fashion than a sweeping change to power weapons.

 Hellebore wrote:

mr. peasant wrote:
Here's an idea... what if power weapons conferred a set Strength value rather than a +S bonus? Seeing as how it works, with the energy it emits disrupting the molecules of whatever it hits, it makes sense that it would do about the same damage no matter how hard you smash it into someone's face.

So, for example:

Power sword - S: 5; AP: -3; D: 1

Power axe - S: 6; AP: -2; D: 1

Power maul - S: 7; AP: -1; D: 1

Power fist - S: 8; AP: -3; D: 2; subtract 1 from hit rolls when using this weapon

Don't know if you meant this intentionally or not, but that's almost exactly the stats for power weapons back in 2nd ed... (except the maul).

Back when melee weapons had their own strength values.

Marines and banshees both were S5 when wielding a power sword. Power axes were variable depending on whether you wanted to wield them one handed or two handed.

It was unintentional and a funny coincidence! 2nd ed was a bit before my time.

My thinking was that power weapons are primarily statted to be used as intended in the hands of a Space Marine, without fully factoring in their utility for most other units/factions. Interestingly, making power swords and power fists fixed at Strength 5 and 8 respectively instead of +1 and x2, it makes them actually potentially viable items worth selecting for Astra Militarum. Sure, the army as a whole would still not do well in melee due to their lacking the weight of effective attacks amongst their regular units. But at least this way, their characters won't be so easily walked over in melee!

Wyldhunt wrote:
Not a fan of the initial pitch. This is definitely in the category of "sweeping changes intended to solve a relatively specific problem and causes more harm than good in the process." For most S3 units, a power sword means you get +1 to wound against just about everything that isn't T5 or T8+ while also getting a big boost to your AP. That's a decent place for power swords to be in.

I can see your rationale there. Which is why I think going with fixed Strength values is the route to go - minimal change for Space Marines but making them heaps more useful for units with Strength 3.

There's a lot of merit to the flat Strength approach. I do note that it creates some anti-synergies, at least for my drukhari. For instance, I currently really like Cursed Blade (+1 strength) wyches. Right now, going CB and giving my squad leaders a power weapon means I end up with S5, a higher strength than my S4 squad. I can even go up to S6 if I take the strength-boosting drug. With a flat strength stat, I would just break even on Strength without the drug and would actually go down a point of strength with the drug.

But that's a pretty niche problem.

Why can't banshees just be S4 and +1 to wound against infantry?

Wound marines on 3s, gravis on 4s, and there's no vehicle wounding issues

 fraser1191 wrote:
Why can't banshees just be S4 and +1 to wound against infantry?

Wound marines on 3s, gravis on 4s, and there's no vehicle wounding issues

Not a terrible idea, but I feel like that might be a bit messy and a bit greedy. Greedy because I'm not sure my banshees deserve to be (or need to be) wounding guardsmen on a 2+. Messy because you're using a stat change and a special rule to end up in more or less the same place just a stat change would. Also, not sure if intended, but that would mean banshees would be significantly less good at hurting swarms, cavalry, and beasts than normal infantry. Though that's easily resolved by giving them +1 to wound against "non-vehicle, non-monster units" instead of against "infantry."

Given that incubi are basically S5 to the banshees' current S4, and given that banshees do have several unique advantages over incubi, how do people feel banshees' offense should compare to incubi? I'm pretty happy letting banshees be slightly less killy but also quicker and able to debuff the enemy with their screams. Just giving banshees 3 attacks base (and maybe upping their cost by 1 or 2 points to compensate) probably does that for me. Can we all agree that banshees should probably be slightly less lethal than incubi?

Wyldhunt wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Why can't banshees just be S4 and +1 to wound against infantry?

Wound marines on 3s, gravis on 4s, and there's no vehicle wounding issues

Not a terrible idea, but I feel like that might be a bit messy and a bit greedy. Greedy because I'm not sure my banshees deserve to be (or need to be) wounding guardsmen on a 2+. Messy because you're using a stat change and a special rule to end up in more or less the same place just a stat change would. Also, not sure if intended, but that would mean banshees would be significantly less good at hurting swarms, cavalry, and beasts than normal infantry. Though that's easily resolved by giving them +1 to wound against "non-vehicle, non-monster units" instead of against "infantry."

Given that incubi are basically S5 to the banshees' current S4, and given that banshees do have several unique advantages over incubi, how do people feel banshees' offense should compare to incubi? I'm pretty happy letting banshees be slightly less killy but also quicker and able to debuff the enemy with their screams. Just giving banshees 3 attacks base (and maybe upping their cost by 1 or 2 points to compensate) probably does that for me. Can we all agree that banshees should probably be slightly less lethal than incubi?

Power swords are already +1 on marines, it's safe to assume banshees will also get +1 on their generically names power swords too. Adding a rule isn't the craziest thing, just have to get the wording right.

Banshees need a place and they have to leave enough room for scorpions too. And I'll be honest I haven't heard anyone complain about scorpions, are they good, bad? I don't even know what their role is lol

 fraser1191 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Why can't banshees just be S4 and +1 to wound against infantry?

Wound marines on 3s, gravis on 4s, and there's no vehicle wounding issues

Not a terrible idea, but I feel like that might be a bit messy and a bit greedy. Greedy because I'm not sure my banshees deserve to be (or need to be) wounding guardsmen on a 2+. Messy because you're using a stat change and a special rule to end up in more or less the same place just a stat change would. Also, not sure if intended, but that would mean banshees would be significantly less good at hurting swarms, cavalry, and beasts than normal infantry. Though that's easily resolved by giving them +1 to wound against "non-vehicle, non-monster units" instead of against "infantry."

Given that incubi are basically S5 to the banshees' current S4, and given that banshees do have several unique advantages over incubi, how do people feel banshees' offense should compare to incubi? I'm pretty happy letting banshees be slightly less killy but also quicker and able to debuff the enemy with their screams. Just giving banshees 3 attacks base (and maybe upping their cost by 1 or 2 points to compensate) probably does that for me. Can we all agree that banshees should probably be slightly less lethal than incubi?

Power swords are already +1 on marines, it's safe to assume banshees will also get +1 on their generically names power swords too. Adding a rule isn't the craziest thing, just have to get the wording right.

Banshees need a place and they have to leave enough room for scorpions too. And I'll be honest I haven't heard anyone complain about scorpions, are they good, bad? I don't even know what their role is lol

All power swords including banshees' got the +1 strength boost marines got. Adding a special rule isn't a big deal in a vacuum, but banshees already have Battle Focus, Ancient Doom, the rending rule on their pistols, Acrobatic, Banshee Mask, and up to two exarch powers to juggle. So I'm reluctant to add another special rule to raise their average damage per turn by an ammount comparable to if we just gave them an extra Attack or Strength.

Scorpions are in a pretty bad way at the moment. They're okay at deepstriking into a corner and scoring line breaker each turn, but their offense is really terrible. They get 2 Strength 4 AP 0 D1 attacks each turn plus a 1/6th chance to do a mortal wound at the start of the fight phase with their gunhats. Their exarchs can take S6 power fists and do alright, but they can't make up for the underwhelming offense of the rest of the squad. If I were to redesign them, I'd probably do one of the following:
A.) Give them +1 Attacks, and make the mandiblaster into an automatic S4 AP-2 hit at the start of the phase (instead of a small chance at mortal wounds). Probably make scorpion chainswords grant an extra attack on top of making them S4. The idea here is to turn them into the crowd clearer while leaving banshees as the anti-heavy infantry specialists. Four S4 attacks per turn plus an extra S4 hit with a little spice on it probably isn't game breaking.

B.) Make them ambush/assassination specialists. Give them a better deepstrike that either lets them deepstrike closer or give them a baked-in bonus to the charge. Instead of a bonus to hit targets in cover, give them a bonus to-wound against enemy units that aren't within 6" of a friendly enemy unit (representing them popping up and picking on isolated enemies.)

C.) Make them a countercharge unit of sorts. Ditch the +1 to hit against targets in cover for the -1 to hit while in cover. Let them deepstrike at the end of the enemy movement phase. Possibly closer than 9". Possibly with a rule letting them heroically intervene. The idea here is that you can use them to block charges intended for your squishier/shootier units. So your opponent's thunderwolves were loping towards your dark reapers, but they end up having to fight scorpions instead. Drive home that expert eldar stealth and training; they're so sneaky, they deepstrike on the other guy's turn!

warpedpig wrote:
What good is a power sword if it can’t even wound a damn enemy with a toughness of 5


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It was better when in previous editions they had more of a premium and were less common it felt. But if they got first strike they cut down most targets easily. This rewarded clever deployment and movement. Bringing initiative back would be good. Elite troops should get first swing

Powerswords have NEVER been good at wounding T5 or higher. They were by far the worst generic power weapon for a long time.

ERJAK wrote:

warpedpig wrote:
What good is a power sword if it can’t even wound a damn enemy with a toughness of 5


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It was better when in previous editions they had more of a premium and were less common it felt. But if they got first strike they cut down most targets easily. This rewarded clever deployment and movement. Bringing initiative back would be good. Elite troops should get first swing

Powerswords have NEVER been good at wounding T5 or higher. They were by far the worst generic power weapon for a long time.

Back in 2nd ed a power sword was s5 by itself, so they were the best at wounding T5 back then

T5 is supposed to be insanely tough, I'd rather not see more weapons inflation make "being tough" seemingly useless again.

Back in 6th/7th it was really a choice between powerswords or axes, depending on if you wanted to strike at initiative or penetrate 2+ saves. Mauls were pretty useless since 3+ saves were so common, which they just bounced harmlessly off of.
I certainly wouldn't say powerswords were bad back then. They weren't that effective against T5, but T5 was kinda rare, just bikes really.

warpedpig wrote:
Power weapons are supposed to be a lot deadlier

Power weapons are supposed to be extremely good in bypassing save, that's their thing since decades. Minor buff to S, or no buff at all, 1 Damage, but high AP.

To match their older counterparts, when power weapons bypassed any saves being AP2, they can now be AP-5 and that's something I can accept. Models fighting with S3 or S4 and AP-4 or -5 is something we don't see often, so I'd like that buff to power weapons.

If you want both the AP and the S high buffs take a power fist equivalent and the -1 to hit that comes with it.

I dont mind power weapons as they are now. Cheap offensive upgrade.

For the banshee part - 3 A base and unmodified 6's to hit auto wound vs infantry

 Hellebore wrote:

mr. peasant wrote:
Here's an idea... what if power weapons conferred a set Strength value rather than a +S bonus? Seeing as how it works, with the energy it emits disrupting the molecules of whatever it hits, it makes sense that it would do about the same damage no matter how hard you smash it into someone's face.

So, for example:

Power sword - S: 5; AP: -3; D: 1

Power axe - S: 6; AP: -2; D: 1

Power maul - S: 7; AP: -1; D: 1

Power fist - S: 8; AP: -3; D: 2; subtract 1 from hit rolls when using this weapon

Don't know if you meant this intentionally or not, but that's almost exactly the stats for power weapons back in 2nd ed... (except the maul).

Back when melee weapons had their own strength values.

Marines and banshees both were S5 when wielding a power sword. Power axes were variable depending on whether you wanted to wield them one handed or two handed.

Correct. 2nd had fixed S values for power weapons. Maybe the OP would be happier playing 40K with the Battle Bible.