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Greenfield wrote:

 Overread wrote:
The worst thing is that GW could have (should have) coordinated this shutdown of production from the factory wtih their release marketing. This would have had WAY less of a blow if they'd previewed 50% of the new stormcast and skaven models in advance. Right now we've only had the Liberator shown off (and one skaven model IF you hunt through forums and social groups)

What makes you think they didn't? More likely they just chose to do it this way, for whatever reason. It's the same Marketing making the announcement about models leaving the range as are doing all the previews for the new edition.

What makes me think they didn't is that they are announcing people losing things BEFORE they gain things.
Right now the only losses on the list that people expected are Skaven ones - all old kits or so core to the army (eg clan rats) that they are 100% guaranteed to get a new kit update.

Meanwhlie they are dropping a whole bunch of fairly recent Stormcast models with no notice as to which are being dropped entirely and not replaced; and those which will.



The difference is huge. Whilst I agree some skaven fans likely thought they had more time before the shut down; they knew that there as good chance of big shake up for that army. The Stormcast players were not expecting it (esp any who are not hounding forums for leaks and such; which is going to be a very large number of people).


As I said if GW had teased half the SC updates before announcing this then the blow would be a lot lot less. Instead the only one they've announced is your basic Liberator. It's just a bad way to market something and build up hype by first pulling the rug from under people and likely turning a good number off Stormcast .

Oh also it has RAMPAGE but we don't know what that does. I'm guessing its some "If this unit kills do something" Ability. It might be it gets another turn of combat or gets to move or something. Ergo not only do you kill something but you get whatever Rampage gives you too

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Geifer wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
What's the point of playing hide-the-die when you could simply roll it?

If I had to give the designers the benefit of the doubt and not just assume all the drugs GW's financial success buys made their mushy brains even mushier, the thought behind it may be that convention puts a 4+ die roll in the hands of Nagash's owner. If you let the opposing player make a decision, that players gets to feel good about being put in control of the fate of his model and better yet, gets to make a choice instead of leaving it to the whims of a die (not that it changes the odds or anything).

I see it as mitigation. Nuke abilities are rarely fun for the one on the receiving end, but GW wants to have gods and demigods in their game whose power is adequately represented in the rules. If you won't remove the ability, you resort to psychological tricks to make it feel as good as possible instead.

It feels like weak mitigation though.

The problem is it could be 1 zombie dragon of 6 in your flesheaters army or it could be your gargant and suddenly 1/4 or more of your army is gone in one turn. No struggle; no strain just a "you die".
Even if you get the fun of picking a hand that might or might not hold a dice its still a huge thing.

It's not like rock-paper-scissors where the game takes seconds so if you lose you can play again. It's a 4-6 hour game where one player with Nagash could obliterate any major unit in close combat with effortless ease. Heck I suspect even models like Morathi and Gotrek who are design to be tarpit models would be taken out in one hit.


Yes its very GW style to have these huge power swings; it doesn't mean its good in practice though.


And yes you can mitigate it by flooding Nagash with lots of chaff models; but chances are you'd do that anyway with a model like him because he is always going ot be a huge powerhouse on the table.



I think the whole gods angle is a weak one because not every faction gets a god and gods are not like Warcasters in Warmachine - a focal point for the game and a cornerstone of army construction and gameplay.

 Tim the Biovore wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/05/the-anatomy-of-a-warscroll-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/

Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?

The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?

It could be as well a partially shown warscroll just to explain how they now work. I suspect that a full warscroll will be different, and will show all the options Liberators have.

 Overread wrote:

As I said if GW had teased half the SC updates before announcing this then the blow would be a lot lot less. Instead the only one they've announced is your basic Liberator. It's just a bad way to market something and build up hype by first pulling the rug from under people and likely turning a good number off Stormcast .

Sure, there are other ways of doing it, and some of those might be received better than others – but that's not evidence it wasn't coordinated. I don't know what motivated GW to want to make the announcement in this way at this point in time, but I'm sure it was done with full consideration to the previews and pre-release build-up.

>>** Many newer players who hear that a model has 10 Wounds might assume that it’s in pretty poor shape, rather than fighting fit…

I mean... maybe, if they're thick as gak, and we've been calling them Wounds in warhammer for what, thirty or so years at this point? It's a stupid change.

 Overread wrote:
Yes its very GW style to have these huge power swings; it doesn't mean its good in practice though.

It's not, but that's never stopped GW before.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Tim the Biovore wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/05/the-anatomy-of-a-warscroll-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/

Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?

The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?

It could be as well a partially shown warscroll just to explain how they now work. I suspect that a full warscroll will be different, and will show all the options Liberators have.

No. Come on. We don't need the 'wait and see the real rules' dance again.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I see the silly rules from AoS 1.0 get-you-by datasheets are making a return.

Better start growing out my mustache ASAP

good to know that GW learns from past mistakes

Billicus wrote:
>>** Many newer players who hear that a model has 10 Wounds might assume that it’s in pretty poor shape, rather than fighting fit…

I mean... maybe, if they're thick as gak, and we've been calling them Wounds in warhammer for what, thirty or so years at this point? It's a stupid change.

Eh, we'll live. It's just a weird thing for a new player to get their head around, and keeping it confusing just to keep the old-timers comfortable is not much help.

The cynic in me wonder how much of the sacrosanct removal is a marketing ploy. It sure create alot of buzz around the new edition.

Together with finally updating the skaven range, GW is aiming for the best edition ever (in sales).

 kodos wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I see the silly rules from AoS 1.0 get-you-by datasheets are making a return.

Better start growing out my mustache ASAP

good to know that GW learns from past mistakes

Of course they do! How else would they manage to keep repeating them if they didn't first identify them.

Why is everyone freaking out over an ability Nagash already has on his current warscroll?

Laughing Man wrote:
Why is everyone freaking out over an ability Nagash already has on his current warscroll?

Ha! Good call.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Tim the Biovore wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/05/the-anatomy-of-a-warscroll-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/

Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?

The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?

It could be as well a partially shown warscroll just to explain how they now work. I suspect that a full warscroll will be different, and will show all the options Liberators have.

It makes a poor example if the warscroll they're using to identify all the features of a warscroll is intentionally omitting the section that changes the wargear in addition to the optional extras. I know there will be dual hammers, you know there will be dual hammers, most everyone knows there will be dual hammers, but they wrote an article for the people who apparently don't, and they didn't mention it.

What I'm poorly masking here is a frustration that they're making all of these changes to invalidate existing sourcebooks with the ostensible goal of making things as entirely clear as possible, and then also just not doing that. I can't use my current books anymore because someone might confuse wounds with damage taken, but that same person is just going to intuitively understand that in the army where units are differentiated by their wargear, the unit with hammers and shields is actually the same unit as the one with dual hammers?

 nels1031 wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:
Why is everyone freaking out over an ability Nagash already has on his current warscroll?

Ha! Good call.

Despite owning a soulblight battletome I've never really looked at Nagash (don't own the model).
That said his current ability requires you to cast the spell successfully first, THEN do the hand dice hiding. The new one just advances straight to the dice holding step.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tim the Biovore wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Tim the Biovore wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/05/the-anatomy-of-a-warscroll-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/

Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?

The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?

It could be as well a partially shown warscroll just to explain how they now work. I suspect that a full warscroll will be different, and will show all the options Liberators have.

It makes a poor example if the warscroll they're using to identify all the features of a warscroll is intentionally omitting the section that changes the wargear in addition to the optional extras. I know there will be dual hammers, you know there will be dual hammers, most everyone knows there will be dual hammers, but they wrote an article for the people who apparently don't, and they didn't mention it.

What I'm poorly masking here is a frustration that they're making all of these changes to invalidate existing sourcebooks with the ostensible goal of making things as entirely clear as possible, and then also just not doing that. I can't use my current books anymore because someone might confuse wounds with damage taken, but that same person is just going to intuitively understand that in the army where units are differentiated by their wargear, the unit with hammers and shields is actually the same unit as the one with dual hammers?

And this is the dance we always play with GW.
Because they have to rebuild every 3 years they make a LOT of changes purely for the sake of change and any attempts to improve clarity within the game get lost in the fact that its a fresh rule system with its own quirks and issues. It's why we often end up having the same complaints in different places; GW fixes them in area A but then also goes into change areas b and c into new things and now they have problems. Next edition they fix B but then change A and C and now they have problems.

It's why their game systems feel very "new" and unpolished despite running games for 30-40 years

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Shame the Plague Monks aren't getting dumped, they're as bad as Rat Ogres.

Now that's an hyperbole.

 Fayric wrote:
The cynic in me wonder how much of the sacrosanct removal is a marketing ploy. It sure create alot of buzz around the new edition.

Together with finally updating the skaven range, GW is aiming for the best edition ever (in sales).

Sacrosanct Chamber will be back in Age of U̶l̶t̶r̶o̶n̶ Magic 2.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
New story https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/05/dawnbringer-chronicles-xxvii-a-feast-for-ages/

I like how the Kingsblood affected the Ogors :

‘Begone, foul creature!’ the ogor cried. ‘Thou art not welcome here!’

I thought it was going to turn them into wild Gorgers, but instead they(or at least the leader) went full chivalry mode.

Am I missing something? What is Power Level and why does it matter to have 3 less of it if Nagash takes 10 wounds?

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Am I missing something? What is Power Level and why does it matter to have 3 less of it if Nagash takes 10 wounds?

my assumption is that it ties into magic? but they clearly included it here as a teaser of later rules to be shown off

There's also a 7 sitting on one of the abilities.

I wonder if power-level is going to be some kind of magic resource system. Ergo you get X number per turn to spend or save with stronger spells costing more etc..

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 Overread wrote:
OH GOD the "hide a dice" person has been allowed back into the rules department!

i'm actually super happy to see that rule return, because it shows they aren't taking things too seriously with the rules this edition. even if there's going to be streamlining, we're still getting something as weird as this on a prominent model

Return?

Correct me if I'm wrong but for something to return doesn't it have left 1st?

Rule is there right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tim the Biovore wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/05/the-anatomy-of-a-warscroll-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/

Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?

The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?

Based on gw aos fb post only model equipment that matters profile wise is grand hammer or not.

StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Am I missing something? What is Power Level and why does it matter to have 3 less of it if Nagash takes 10 wounds?

my assumption is that it ties into magic? but they clearly included it here as a teaser of later rules to be shown off

Overread wrote:There's also a 7 sitting on one of the abilities.

I wonder if power-level is going to be some kind of magic resource system. Ergo you get X number per turn to spend or save with stronger spells costing more etc..

Magic was my initial assumption too, but with out them saying I guess we will just have to wait and see.

From what i've read, power level is the amount of spells the model can cast.

I assumed the 7 on the spell is the casting target?

Belthanos wrote:

 Tim the Biovore wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/05/the-anatomy-of-a-warscroll-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/

Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?

The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?

Based on gw aos fb post only model equipment that matters profile wise is grand hammer or not.

Well, how about that.



I'll eat my words, they did indeed explain everything you need to know rules-wise about the warscroll.

Also this reply was a silver-lining to that news

 Overread wrote:
There's also a 7 sitting on one of the abilities.

I wonder if power-level is going to be some kind of magic resource system. Ergo you get X number per turn to spend or save with stronger spells costing more etc..

Power Level being a magic resource would explain the Wizard (9) in his keywords, so he loses the Invocation of Nagash (7) after taking sufficient damage and being dropped down to Power Level 6

 Fayric wrote:
The cynic in me wonder how much of the sacrosanct removal is a marketing ploy. It sure create alot of buzz around the new edition.

Together with finally updating the skaven range, GW is aiming for the best edition ever (in sales).

Calling it now, they release Warpcast Immortals in 5th edition. The sacrosanct chamber spends the next 3 years in seclusion trying to figure out how to fix the curse of reforging until they come to the conclusion that Sigmar is an evil lying bastard and that chaos was right or something or the only way to save the stormcast is with warp-lightning acquired via a pact with the Horned Rat.

Thus, the sacrosanct chamber becomes evil stormcast.

One of Floaty Bony Guy's keywords is WIZARD (9), so maybe that number is something to do with his power level?

Or he gets cheaper if he takes damage...

 Tim the Biovore wrote:


Power Level being a magic resource would explain the Wizard (9) in his keywords, so he loses the Invocation of Nagash (7) after taking sufficient damage and being dropped down to Power Level 6

Perhaps or the power levels stack up over turns. So he gets 9 per turn and you could save them and not use any and use more next turn; or he could spend them all on spells and, I assume, counterspells

 Tim the Biovore wrote:

Belthanos wrote:

 Tim the Biovore wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/05/the-anatomy-of-a-warscroll-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/

Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?

The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?

Based on gw aos fb post only model equipment that matters profile wise is grand hammer or not.

Well, how about that.



I'll eat my words, they did indeed explain everything you need to know rules-wise about the warscroll.

Also this reply was a silver-lining to that news

 Overread wrote:
There's also a 7 sitting on one of the abilities.

I wonder if power-level is going to be some kind of magic resource system. Ergo you get X number per turn to spend or save with stronger spells costing more etc..

Power Level being a magic resource would explain the Wizard (9) in his keywords, so he loses the Invocation of Nagash (7) after taking sufficient damage and being dropped down to Power Level 6

Hey now, double tower sheild Wall builds in Souls games are some of the most fun you can have.

As mexican myself, I feel those Liberators are handling their hammers as maracas, on a stereotypical, funny way, or as air traffic control guys, or Shadow Shaman in Dota 2.

Warscroll: there's interesting things!

I like the return of levels, and how crazy high a wizard's can be now, I like they haven't removed Rampages (as a lizard enjoyer that would've pissed me enough to not try the edition), I like that seems that magic is casted across the phases, I like the USR, I like the removal of Battleshock, which I liked in concept but was rubbish.

Now I want to see what BSB and musicians do.

Well, aside from the purge of the armies/mini's detailed on the last few pages (which was a business decision that I can at least understand, although I disagree with it), the revelation that the liberator counts the same regardless of how its modeled is my first big design decision red flag for this edition. They were on a pretty hot streak.

I know that they had already "standardised" some units and their equipment options (looking at my soon to be extinct Dragon Ogors warscroll for instance, or Warcry warbands) and that a lot of warscrolls only have one equipment option, taking away the option for in game customization sucks.

With my Fyreslayers, I liked having equipment options because the amount of warscrolls is so sparse and now from the looks of it, it'll be more sparse. No debate about if I should equip my Hearthguard Bezerkers with Poleaxe or Broadaxe anymore based on what I might be facing. They're all the same now(if this design paradigm continues).

edit: Also, the top comment in that FB pic above : (paraphrasing) "I'm glad you showed off Nagash's Warscroll first. We'll need a necromancer to resurrect all of the armies you guys killed." Nicely done.