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Hi there!
We just launched our new Kickstarter “The Wraith King’s Army”.
We think there are a lot of people here who would like to take a look at the campaign:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zaxis/wraith-king

There are 66 spectral models ready to print for your army.
Early birds still opened.

Feedback is appreciated by the way, if we could do something to improve, we could try to do it!

Thanks a lot.
Best

Compatible with Nighthaunts ? You mean blatant copies of Nighthaunts...the "markers" are litterally the Endless Spells from GW battletome.

You're lucky if you don't catch GW's attention on this KS.

Sarouan wrote:
Compatible with Nighthaunts ? You mean blatant copies of Nighthaunts...the "markers" are litterally the Endless Spells from GW battletome.

You're lucky if you don't catch GW's attention on this KS.

Exaggerate much? Pretty obvious that they are inspired by Nighthaunts, Dreadscythes may be a bit close to the original, but aside from that? Not like GW invented ghosts, wraiths and floating skulls.
Why is this always an argument?

Well this is just the entire Nightgaunt range re-made, innit?

Nice.

Nice looking models

might want to add some pics!

 Hanskrampf wrote:

Exaggerate much? Pretty obvious that they are inspired by Nighthaunts, Dreadscythes may be a bit close to the original, but aside from that? Not like GW invented ghosts, wraiths and floating skulls.
Why is this always an argument?

It's more than "inspiration". It's clear all the units in this KS copy those available in the Nighthaunt AoS battletome - not only in the weapons but also very close to how they look as design. And they also copy how they are available in the plastic boxes sold by GW as well (how convenient the bases are also displayed the exact same size for their GW equivalent, really ). The purpose of this KS is clear like crystal : make a Nighthaunt army with non-GW miniatures from STL files. Especially for tournaments, since the confusion is very low on what units "count as" like. You could even say they're conversions in some cases...

There's a difference between inspiration and a copy. That's why something like "copyright" exists.

I have no problem with people making ghost miniatures for 3D printers, otherwise, but I wouldn't be surprised if this KS is suddenly suspended for a copyright claim - like the eldar one we had not so long ago. Would be a shame, because I like the "mini-mourngul" unit.

I mean, come on guys, be less obvious when you make a project like this for KS...

Sarouan wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:

Exaggerate much? Pretty obvious that they are inspired by Nighthaunts, Dreadscythes may be a bit close to the original, but aside from that? Not like GW invented ghosts, wraiths and floating skulls.
Why is this always an argument?

It's more than "inspiration". It's clear all the units in this KS copy those available in the Nighthaunt AoS battletome - not only in the weapons but also very close to how they look as design. And they also copy how they are available in the plastic boxes sold by GW as well (how convenient the bases are also displayed the exact same size for their GW equivalent, really ). The purpose of this KS is clear like crystal : make a Nighthaunt army with non-GW miniatures from STL files.

There's a difference between inspiration and a copy. That's why something like "copyright" exists.

I have no problem with people making ghost miniatures for 3D printers, otherwise, but I wouldn't be surprised if this KS is suddenly suspended for a copyright claim - like the eldar one we had not so long ago.

Just stop. Of course the intention is to cater to AoS Nighthaunt players. But that's really not the point.
Ghosts, wraiths, etc. are such a basic concept and these aren't 1:1 copies. There's not a chance that GW has any claims at all (like I said before, Dreadscythes aside, because those do look very similar and have a kinda new concept as banshees with dual blades for arms).
The Eldar you mentioned were like 96% clones.

Sarouan wrote:
Compatible with Nighthaunts ? You mean blatant copies of Nighthaunts...the "markers" are litterally the Endless Spells from GW battletome.

You're lucky if you don't catch GW's attention on this KS.

Ghosts/Grim Reaper isn't exactly a GW original concept.

I mean... I'd still call it quite blatant

Beautiful minis.

Is it clear what the inspiration model is? Obviously.
Is it an exact copy? No.
Is it different enough? I would say yes, proportions are completely different, head is different, hands are different, resulting in a different overall look.

IP rights don't protect you from an "Well, it looks kinda similar and is giving us competition in the same niche we cater to".

They are blatant rip offs. look at the endless spells for goodness sake.





Or the Harridans

And blatantly ripping off GW is a good thing in my books, so.

I agree with you on the Dreadscythes, but I already said that.
The Endless Spells?
Again, is it obvious what the intention behind them are and what the inspiration is? Yes.
But it's not a carbon copy, and it's floaty skulls, a floaty scythe and a floaty hourglass. Hardly a unique concept.

Stop treating GW as the holy grail of invention completely free from outside inspirations. I'm sure you could find a lot more artwork from DnD or Magic that predates the Nighthaunt and that GW ripped off.

Personally I think its a shame I binge brought Mortal Realms to get a Night Haunt army and so I was intrigued for a bit of variety but these don't provide that. Some shields and bucklers, scimitars, sickles for the troops would be nice.

Hi there!
We didn't expect this topic of conversation! But we also appreciate your points of views. They are interesting and we will learn many things.

We believe that this topic is long and extensive and no conclusion will be reached because everyone has their personal vision.

But obviously GW is a great company and if they want to cancel the project, we won't be able to fight againt them.

However, before doing the project we have informed ourselves and we believe that there should be no problem since the concept is not registered. A wraith is a wraith and a scythe is a scythe. We have only tried to keep the concept to be compatible if people want to use themin games.

We do not try to convince anyone!


So... Thank you very much for your feedback, we have compiled interesting things for the next projects that we do!

Sarouan wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:

Exaggerate much? Pretty obvious that they are inspired by Nighthaunts, Dreadscythes may be a bit close to the original, but aside from that? Not like GW invented ghosts, wraiths and floating skulls.
Why is this always an argument?

It's more than "inspiration". It's clear all the units in this KS copy those available in the Nighthaunt AoS battletome - not only in the weapons but also very close to how they look as design. And they also copy how they are available in the plastic boxes sold by GW as well (how convenient the bases are also displayed the exact same size for their GW equivalent, really ). The purpose of this KS is clear like crystal : make a Nighthaunt army with non-GW miniatures from STL files. Especially for tournaments, since the confusion is very low on what units "count as" like. You could even say they're conversions in some cases...

There's a difference between inspiration and a copy. That's why something like "copyright" exists.

I have no problem with people making ghost miniatures for 3D printers, otherwise, but I wouldn't be surprised if this KS is suddenly suspended for a copyright claim - like the eldar one we had not so long ago. Would be a shame, because I like the "mini-mourngul" unit.

I mean, come on guys, be less obvious when you make a project like this for KS...

You know, those Games Workshop Harridans look awfully like a Stilken from Garth Nix's books (which considerably predates this army range). Or a variant on the DnD 'Harvest Hand'. I hope that even now, you're writing GW an angry letter about their blatant usage of other people's ideas.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, a ghost, a skeleton, a wraith, or a banshee are pretty common fantasy fare, as are swords and scythes. Just because a company sticks together some common concepts in one way doesn't mean that it's copyrighted. It would be like having a go at Pixar's 'Incredibles' because Marvel and DC laid the groundwork for 'superheroes', or some other such thing. Games Workshop can release ten skeletons with swords and ghostly/incorporeal legs, but it doesn't mean no-one else can. That's just not how copyright works.

I've backed it. Looking forward to seeing how they print.

My take is (under US law) you can skate pretty darn close to someone's IP but so long as it's clearly a separate product and original work you're fine.

The Iron Tower trilogy started as a LotR proposal, the comic Supreme is clearly a take on Superman, the Orville bears some passing similarities to Star Trek, I could go on.

Yet all were 'legal' and were clearly something different.

If you have an ethical objection to buying something that cribs too many notes from its source, good on you. But basically, short of recasting models, my understanding is this sort of product is just as legal as Zack Snyder's upcoming Not~Star Wars film.

 Ketara wrote:

I've backed it. Looking forward to seeing how they print.

Hi Ketara. Thanks for backing the proyect!

And thank you for your post.
It's a good answer. We have the same point of view and it's a summary of what we inform ourselves.
However, if GW wants to intervene... none of that will be an excuse to keep the project alive, because it is a powerful company and we cannot fight.
We'll see.

So... We are working on a "family picture".
We'll post it soon!

Z.Axis wrote:Hi there!
We didn't expect this topic of conversation! But we also appreciate your points of views. They are interesting and we will learn many things.

We believe that this topic is long and extensive and no conclusion will be reached because everyone has their personal vision.

But obviously GW is a great company and if they want to cancel the project, we won't be able to fight againt them.

However, before doing the project we have informed ourselves and we believe that there should be no problem since the concept is not registered. A wraith is a wraith and a scythe is a scythe. We have only tried to keep the concept to be compatible if people want to use themin games.

We do not try to convince anyone!


So... Thank you very much for your feedback, we have compiled interesting things for the next projects that we do!

I hope you do so, you have many interesting concepts. Just be aware that as you try to give the project more publicity to draw more backers, you also increase the risks of drawing unwanted attention.

Just saying your project here is very obvious about what you're copying. At least put all the miniatures together, and not in separate parts clearly relating to the GW equivalent boxes.

Wish you luck !

Ketara wrote:
I hope that even now, you're writing GW an angry letter about their blatant usage of other people's ideas.

You hope I do this so that the project is suspended ? Huh, weird. Anyway, I didn't and I won't.

Just remember, in the real world, the eldar KS project was suspended and it wasn't because of me.

I've backed it. Looking forward to seeing how they print.

Of course you do, you were the one promoting the eldar one on this forum after all.

Besides, there is a free file to test it. From what I've seen, it's cleverly made (good thing to put the anchor rock on the miniature).

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
My take is (under US law) you can skate pretty darn close to someone's IP but so long as it's clearly a separate product and original work you're fine.

Be careful that the project creator is from Spain, so US laws don't need to be invoked here.

These look cool.
Do you have any pictures of physical prints for these, particularly that Queen Thyri character or the Full Moon Sentinels?

Scalable ghosts/wraiths in the roles of GW's nighthaunt, but designed to be creepy as opposed to GW Creepy Bling (TM)?

Done.

My only wish would be some variant weapon hands. I'm not looking for Nighthaun, but just stuff to incorporate into my fantasy undead stuff without having to drop a buttload on a box of GW's over-scaled Trademarkable Scythe Wraiths, or whatever they're called nowadays.

Sarouan wrote:

Of course you do, you were the one promoting the eldar one on this forum after all.

Eleven years and almost ten thousand posts on this website, and that's what you remember me for?

Doing a different execution of the same concept isn't the same thing as copying. No one would put these side by side and say they were the same mini.

 Ketara wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

Of course you do, you were the one promoting the eldar one on this forum after all.

Eleven years and almost ten thousand posts on this website, and that's what you remember me for?

No, I remember you for other things, but here that's the one that's pertinent for the post - since you're talking about reality and I make you remember what happened in the real world as well for that one in particular.

Sarouan wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
My take is (under US law) you can skate pretty darn close to someone's IP but so long as it's clearly a separate product and original work you're fine.

Be careful that the project creator is from Spain, so US laws don't need to be invoked here.

That's why I included the note, I'm not a US lawyer and certainly not an EU one.

The principals are pretty standard however, copyrights protect content, and new content, even it's close to something else, is still new content.

Trademarks are another issue, that's where you can ding someone for being too close to you with Roll-X watches or whatever. But in the world of copyrights you're totally fine telling the story Grodo and the Cursed Bracelet of the Lord of the Jewels.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:


That's why I included the note, I'm not a US lawyer and certainly not an EU one.

The principals are pretty standard however, copyrights protect content, and new content, even it's close to something else, is still new content.

Trademarks are another issue, that's where you can ding someone for being too close to you with Roll-X watches or whatever. But in the world of copyrights you're totally fine telling the story Grodo and the Cursed Bracelet of the Lord of the Jewels.

I totally agree, and I'm certainly not a lawyer as well.

I understand the appeal of the project is specifically targeted at the Nighthaunts, but the way it is presented and mainly the fact that he sells the files for commercial use (not just personnal use, there's a specific price for the commercial "license" - even though to be honest, I was always raising a brow at that concept when it's made to be clearly used as "proxies" for GW models : if the backer is good with such a project, why would he pay more for something he can do anyway under the mantle. If he already think it's fine to do this to GW, then he doesn't have to go that far to believe it's also fine to do the same to the project creator here...) as well are a bit too obvious to me. Especially if you advertise it on a big forum like Dakkadakka.

If it's something more confidential or less obvious (for example, putting more units that have no link with the GW Nighthaunt army), it would be easier to defend the case. Here...there are more contentious matter, to me. It's not just the miniatures, in the end. It's the intent. And it's also way too easy to make the link - I'm not even playing the Nighthaunts, but just by looking at GW's webstore, I can totally see what each pack of miniatures are intended to be used for.

Sarouan wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:


That's why I included the note, I'm not a US lawyer and certainly not an EU one.

The principals are pretty standard however, copyrights protect content, and new content, even it's close to something else, is still new content.

Trademarks are another issue, that's where you can ding someone for being too close to you with Roll-X watches or whatever. But in the world of copyrights you're totally fine telling the story Grodo and the Cursed Bracelet of the Lord of the Jewels.

I totally agree, and I'm certainly not a lawyer as well.

I understand the appeal of the project is specifically targeted at the Nighthaunts, but the way it is presented and mainly the fact that he sells the files for commercial use (not just personnal use, there's a specific price for the commercial "license" - even though to be honest, I was always raising a brow at that concept when it's made to be clearly used as "proxies" for GW models : if the backer is good with such a project, why would he pay more for something he can do anyway under the mantle. If he already think it's fine to do this to GW, then he doesn't have to go that far to believe it's also fine to do the same to the project creator here...) as well are a bit too obvious to me. Especially if you advertise it on a big forum like Dakkadakka.

If it's something more confidential or less obvious (for example, putting more units that have no link with the GW Nighthaunt army), it would be easier to defend the case. Here...there are more contentious matter, to me. It's not just the miniatures, in the end. It's the intent. And it's also way too easy to make the link - I'm not even playing the Nighthaunts, but just by looking at GW's webstore, I can totally see what each pack of miniatures are intended to be used for.

I think you got something completely wrong here.
GW didn't invent the concept of spectral horrors. These are not GW designs.
Intent doesn't matter.
These are not files ripped from a GW game and a commercial licence can be sold because the file creator allows someone to sell prints of his files. The files don't belong to GW and it's two completely different things to create files heavily inspired by something else, sell those files and allow print of these files to be sold than to violate a licence agreement and sell prints of a file anyway. How you can put these two things on the same level is absolutely beyond me.

You act hurt because... why?
GW's Nighthaunt are not a unique concept with a unique visual element.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

You act hurt because... why?
GW's Nighthaunt are not a unique concept with a unique visual element.

I'm not sure he is acting 'hurt' to be honest; I know in my case I initially mixed Sarouan up with another poster in the thread. Once I actually went back and re-read him specifically, I realised that he's more trying to be cautionary to the creator. At first glance, his concerns about copyright come off as him claiming that the KS creator should have something to worry about legally (which as we've all pointed out, isn't true). What he's actually saying though, is that if they skate too close, GW may decide to try and crush them - regardless of the law. Key distinction there.

One of those cases I think where a glance at the page can give you a misleading summary of someone's opinion. Text format, etcetc.

Although, that being said, I'm still entertained that someone cared enough to remember that I posted the Aeldari Kickstarter. I've put up N&R links in the last year for everything from Warhammer Escape Rooms, to a stl kickstarter for Thunder-Warrior counts, to a good sale deal on GW paints. I've got little enough attachment to any of these things that it amuses me that any of them got associated with me personally in someone's mind.

They might not be copies but it's clear that many of these are direct proxies heavily inspired by Nighthaunt. Nothing wrong with that, but it's silly to try and claim that a lot of these aren't complete concept ripoffs.

There maybe no copyright issue, but that doesn't mean there isn't very heavy influence. It's not a coincidence that the markers are a scythe and hour glass and some ghostly heads is it. From the kickstarter page it sounds like not-harrows are about to turn up as a stretch goal. What's the betting there's a not-Black Coach as well....