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Paroxysm has a warp charge value of 5. If manifested, choose an enemy unit within 18" of the psyker. Until your next Psychic phase, that unit cannot fight in the Fight phase until all other units that are able to have done so. If the target unit has an ability that allows it to fight first in the Fight phase, it instead fights as if it didn’t have this ability. If both players have units that cannot fight until all other units have done so, then alternate choosing which of those units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

does that mean you can throw Paroxysm on an enemy unit, then charge in with genestealers, attack with genestealers, and then use Adrenaline Surge stratagem, to fight again, BEFORE my first target has even attacked once? Adrenaline surge has to happen at the end of the fight phase, but Paroxysm says that the unit attacks last and all other units that can fight have done so. And with adrenaline surge, you "can" fight again.

Paroxysm works the same as other "fights last" abilities, clarified in the recent designers commentary:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf

Abilities that happen at the end of the fight phase occur after the "fights last" units have fought.

If we follow designers commentary, the fight phase is treated as if there are 3 distinct steps:

In practice then, it is best to think of the Fight phase as being
made up of three separate steps, as follows:
1. Players alternate selecting eligible ‘fights first’ units to fight
with, one at a time, starting with the player whose turn is
taking place.
2. Players alternate selecting eligible ‘fights normally’ units to
fight with, one at a time, starting with the player whose turn
is not taking place.
3. Players alternate selecting eligible ‘fights last’ units to fight
with, one at a time, starting with the player whose turn is
taking place.

The "end of the phase" would be after those 3 steps have been resolved.

so.. the unit with paroxysm can still fight before the tyranid player uses adrenaline surge?

i find it very difficult to understand, that PDF you sent

Beardedragon wrote:
so.. the unit with paroxysm can still fight before the tyranid player uses adrenaline surge?

Yes.

The pdf is an attempt to clarify the fight sequence and the interactions of various abilities that allow units to fight first or fight last.

Perhaps i can help to explain:
The fight phase can be thought of as 3 distinct steps:
1) Fight first
2) Fight normally
3) Fight last.

Anything that happens at the "start of the phase", is resolved before step 1. Anything that occurs "at the end of the phase" (such as Adrenaline Surge) is resolved after step 3.

Multiple "fights first/fights last" abilities do not stack.

If a unit is "fights first" and "fights last" (such as a unit that charged - "fight first" and that unit is also subject to Paroxysm - "fights last") the effects cancel out and the unit instead "fights normally" (step 2). As "fights first" and "Fights last" do not stack, a unit with one or more "fights first" is still cancelled out by only one "fights last", and vice versa.

Any and all abilities (this includes units that charged this turn) that allow a unit to fight first means it fights in the first step. Identify all the units that fight first, then resolve those fights one by one, starting with the player whose turn it is, and alternating players, until all fight first units have fought.

Any and all abilites that make a unit "fight last" means it fights in step 3. Identify all the units that "fight last". THese units can not fight until everything else that is eligible to fight has done so (step 2)

Everything else "fights normally", in step 2, alternating between players, starting with the player whose turn is not taking place.

Once Step 2 is completed, the "fights last" units will fight, alternating between players, and as was the case for "fights first", start with the player whose turn it is.

Additionally the PDF clarifies that the "Counter-offensive" stratagem ("fight next") can only be used on units which either fight first (step 1), or fight normally (step 2), and cannot be used on units which "fight last".


Hopefully this makes things clearer.

Aash wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
so.. the unit with paroxysm can still fight before the tyranid player uses adrenaline surge?

Yes.

The pdf is an attempt to clarify the fight sequence and the interactions of various abilities that allow units to fight first or fight last.

Perhaps i can help to explain:
The fight phase can be thought of as 3 distinct steps:
1) Fight first
2) Fight normally
3) Fight last.

Anything that happens at the "start of the phase", is resolved before step 1. Anything that occurs "at the end of the phase" (such as Adrenaline Surge) is resolved after step 3.

Multiple "fights first/fights last" abilities do not stack.

If a unit is "fights first" and "fights last" (such as a unit that charged - "fight first" and that unit is also subject to Paroxysm - "fights last") the effects cancel out and the unit instead "fights normally" (step 2). As "fights first" and "Fights last" do not stack, a unit with one or more "fights first" is still cancelled out by only one "fights last", and vice versa.

Any and all abilities (this includes units that charged this turn) that allow a unit to fight first means it fights in the first step. Identify all the units that fight first, then resolve those fights one by one, starting with the player whose turn it is, and alternating players, until all fight first units have fought.

Any and all abilites that make a unit "fight last" means it fights in step 3. Identify all the units that "fight last". THese units can not fight until everything else that is eligible to fight has done so (step 2)

Everything else "fights normally", in step 2, alternating between players, starting with the player whose turn is not taking place.

Once Step 2 is completed, the "fights last" units will fight, alternating between players, and as was the case for "fights first", start with the player whose turn it is.

Additionally the PDF clarifies that the "Counter-offensive" stratagem ("fight next") can only be used on units which either fight first (step 1), or fight normally (step 2), and cannot be used on units which "fight last".


Hopefully this makes things clearer.

ah yes. you make more sense than the PDF.

Thank you.

Because 2 days ago i fought a tyranid player that threw paroxysm on my ork boys, and attacked them once, then said he would use adrenaline surge to attack twice before i could attack once. I thought it sounded off but i allowed it.

Regardless, i still won the battle but ive written to him just now thats not how it works.