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Inspired by some of the warlock discussion in the Craftworlder thread in General Discussion. What if we just like, got rid of Deny the Witch as a thing that all psykers can do and confined it only to those factions actually known for shutting down psychic powers? When I first started playing (5th edition) denying psychic powers wasn't really a thing. IIRC, librarians had a chance at doing it if they were close enough thanks to their psychic hoods, and a couple factions could make your psychic tests more likely to fail (Shadow in the Warp, Runes of Warding), but there weren't a lot of ways to actually stop a power from going off. Space Wolves got wolf tail talismans and whatever rune priests had that let them potentially deny a power on a 4+ and then on a 5+, but that was one of their super special superstitious Viking rules meant to set them apart from other factions.

In 6th edition, suddenly everyone had a chance (albeit a small one) to Deny the Witch. In 7th, you could throw a pile of dice at a power and almost guarantee it wouldn't go off unless your opponent also had a bucket of dice to cast with. In 8th and 9th, denying the witch is a thing every psyker in the game has decent odds at doing, sisters of battle basically have a 1 in 6 chance of denying every power you cast, and there are a handful of strats and relics floating around to let almost everyone have a shot at shutting down psychic powers. And that long history lesson is just my rambling way of pointing out that Deny the Witch hasn't always been around; it's not a bone-deep mechanic in 40k the way some things are.

So here's a hopefully more succinct list of reasons for why I kind of like the idea of just getting rid of Deny the Witch as a thing all psykers can do:
* Fluff-wise, most short stories and novels don't really give me the impression that shutting down psychic powers is a thing that most psykers can do. Effects that we used to call "maledictions" and "witchfire" powers are sometimes described as being blocked or warded off by the novel's librarian, but I don't recall ever reading a psyker say, "Hey, that chaos sorcerer is preventing me from putting up a psychic forcefield or speeding up my movements."

* Currently, there are some seemingly-psychic effects that aren't deniable. Pink horrors don't lose their shooting attacks (although they could back when that attack was a witchfire power). You can't deny the witch to shut down daemon summoning. Eldar exarch powers and acts of faith can't be denied. So the current DtW rules seem to pick and choose which psychic phenomena they work against kind of arbitrarily.

* I like the idea of bringing back squad warlocks that give relatively minor buffs to the guardian unit they're attached to. Rules like this would really work better if it was just an automatic passive buff, but feeling compelled to give your opponent a chance to deny them makes such rule implementations feel clunky. I'm sure there are non-warlock units that might also enjoy passive psychic effects.

* In the past, I've seen people argue that DtW is vital for game balance as smites and warp times would be too good otherwise. However, I'd argue that
A.) only making the apparently too-good power work 50% of the time semi-arbitrarily doesn't seem like a good balancing mechanic to me.
B.) Are smites and other current MW-dealing powers actually that much more lethal than what we've had in the past? In 5th edition, the space marine Avenger psychic power was basically a heavy flamer meaning it could wipe out most of a squad of dire avengers or fire warriors if the squad was small enough or clumped together. My farseer's Eldritch Storm could carve chunks out of termagaunt squads, hurt an enemy vehicle, and render that vehicle's rear armor vulnerable to followup attacks. My farseer also had much better odds of making an enemy character's head explode with Mind War. I remember being much more afraid of Doombolt in previous editions than I am now.
I may be wrong, but it kind of seems like people freak out about mortal wounds' ability to bypass expensive armour but maybe end up overstating their relative effectiveness against non-marine targets as a result.

Am I the odd man out here? To me, DtW has always felt more like an annoyance at best and an excuse for making some psychic powers a bit too powerful at worst. Does the game actually change that much if we just remove DtW as a thing all psykers can do and instead tie it only to specific relics/wargear/stratagems/army abilities (like Shield of Faith)?

I don’t mind psykers having it. My issue is when entire armies like Sisters have it on every unit. If it was limited to say just their characters, or just their priests it wouldn’t be so bad.

Perhaps even making deny the witch a generic power, like Smite. Remove the ability to manifest one and deny one, instead say you can manifest X powers per battle round. So you can forfeit casting in your turn and instead use that to deny.

Jarms48 wrote:
Perhaps even making deny the witch a generic power, like Smite. Remove the ability to manifest one and deny one, instead say you can manifest X powers per battle round. So you can forfeit casting in your turn and instead use that to deny.

I'd worry that, depending on the matchup, a psyker would either end up doing nothing but denying the witch (because his opponent's powers are powerful or critical to his gameplan), OR would end up never denying the witch because his own powers are too valuable to not cast. I don't particularly like either of those scenarios, and I do like the idea of being able to bring back some psychic abilities that don't require psychic tests (and thus don't give your opponent a chance to DtW).

I'd be in favour or removing deny the witch entirely. You can't deny shooting or melee in this manor, and it really sucks the fun out of a game if you can't use your army the way you want to. Generally I think that shutting down your opponent's abilities is pretty feel-bad more often than not.

Psychic powers already have a chance to fail when casting them because of the warp charge roll in the same way you can fail BS and WS rolls. And there is the danger of Perils of the Warp too.

If psychic powers are too powerful without being able to use Deny the Witch, then that is a problem anyway (which should get corrected) because some factions don't have access to deny the witch at all.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
Perhaps even making deny the witch a generic power, like Smite. Remove the ability to manifest one and deny one, instead say you can manifest X powers per battle round. So you can forfeit casting in your turn and instead use that to deny.

I'd worry that, depending on the matchup, a psyker would either end up doing nothing but denying the witch (because his opponent's powers are powerful or critical to his gameplan), OR would end up never denying the witch because his own powers are too valuable to not cast. I don't particularly like either of those scenarios, and I do like the idea of being able to bring back some psychic abilities that don't require psychic tests (and thus don't give your opponent a chance to DtW).

It would give a leg up to armies that run an abundance of psykers; Thousand Sons could use Aspiring Sorcerers to block every cast from an opponent's army and still have their real characters do all the psychic stuff they please. You may draw your own conclusions on if this is a desirable game state.

There's plenty of old lore for dtw.

I'm not convinced there's any problem with it. It's a different curve to normal abilities and a different power level, but it's worked well enough in every game I've played and removing a large potentual for that interaction would be a step backwards for player experiences and army building.

Yes I think it would be easier to balance and more straightforward to scrap it. Leave it to a strategem/special ability/army rule rather than any pysker at any time.