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Blessed Bolts Stratagem - an Adepta Sororitas unit armed with artificer-crafted storm bolters (( considered a special weapon )) deals 2 mortal wounds on an unmodified hit roll of 6, to a maximum of 6 mortal wounds.

A Dominion squad of 5 Sisters who can trade out 4 of their 5 standard weapons for 4 Special Weapons Artificer-Crafted Storm Bolters for free costs less than 100 points. Artificer-crafted storm bolters are a Rapid Fire 2 weapon . Four of them at 12" or less deal 16 shots, 2 wounds on a normal unsaved hit, 2 MW on a 6 to hit (( with or without re-rolls )).

What other 9th edition squads can match this firepower so cheaply? Apparently, this much dakka is on the menu from now on. I need to start thinking ahead or else i will be "gee whiz, where does the rulebook say that?" every third sentence during games.

It's even better if your group allows Legends rules where the Sister Superior can take a Storm Bolter too.

TomWilton wrote:
Blessed Bolts Stratagem - an Adepta Sororitas unit armed with artificer-crafted storm bolters (( considered a special weapon )) deals 2 mortal wounds on an unmodified hit roll of 6, to a maximum of 6 mortal wounds.

A Dominion squad of 5 Sisters who can trade out 4 of their 5 standard weapons for 4 Special Weapons Artificer-Crafted Storm Bolters for free costs less than 100 points. Artificer-crafted storm bolters are a Rapid Fire 2 weapon . Four of them at 12" or less deal 16 shots, 2 wounds on a normal unsaved hit, 2 MW on a 6 to hit (( with or without re-rolls )).

What other 9th edition squads can match this firepower so cheaply? Apparently, this much dakka is on the menu from now on. I need to start thinking ahead or else i will be "gee whiz, where does the rulebook say that?" every third sentence during games.

Every army has some equivalent nonsense and will likely be getting more as codexes drop.

Whining about the SoB codex(which is arguably a NERF on the previous dex) when Admech and Drukhari exist is pretty poor form.

yeah, unfortunately GW seems to think it's really great game design to give everyone 'dump a bucket of mortal wounds on your opponent' strats that cost like 1cp. the sisters one isn't as bad as the top dog one right now which is Wrath of Mars, but it is arguably one of the better MW-hose strats out there precisely because it's on a unit that gets to scout up, so if they get top of one they ARE dumping those 5mws on you for 1cp, and is only 80pts as opposed to some of the big blocks of skitarii or hellions you need to get comparable mw numbers.

Drukhari is a way stronger book overall, but its tough to argue that 5mws for 1cp from an 80pt unit isnt worse than 6mws for 2CP from a 340pt unit, which usually cant happen turn 1.

ERJAK wrote:

TomWilton wrote:
Blessed Bolts Stratagem - an Adepta Sororitas unit armed with artificer-crafted storm bolters (( considered a special weapon )) deals 2 mortal wounds on an unmodified hit roll of 6, to a maximum of 6 mortal wounds.

A Dominion squad of 5 Sisters who can trade out 4 of their 5 standard weapons for 4 Special Weapons Artificer-Crafted Storm Bolters for free costs less than 100 points. Artificer-crafted storm bolters are a Rapid Fire 2 weapon . Four of them at 12" or less deal 16 shots, 2 wounds on a normal unsaved hit, 2 MW on a 6 to hit (( with or without re-rolls )).

What other 9th edition squads can match this firepower so cheaply? Apparently, this much dakka is on the menu from now on. I need to start thinking ahead or else i will be "gee whiz, where does the rulebook say that?" every third sentence during games.

Every army has some equivalent nonsense and will likely be getting more as codexes drop.

Whining about the SoB codex(which is arguably a NERF on the previous dex) when Admech and Drukhari exist is pretty poor form.

Excuse me. I apologize for my 'poor form' 'whining' about asking what surprises to look out for in other armies. It was an observation without complaint, as anyone can see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:
yeah, unfortunately GW seems to think it's really great game design to give everyone 'dump a bucket of mortal wounds on your opponent' strats that cost like 1cp. the sisters one isn't as bad as the top dog one right now which is Wrath of Mars, but it is arguably one of the better MW-hose strats out there precisely because it's on a unit that gets to scout up, so if they get top of one they ARE dumping those 5mws on you for 1cp, and is only 80pts as opposed to some of the big blocks of skitarii or hellions you need to get comparable mw numbers.

Drukhari is a way stronger book overall, but its tough to argue that 5mws for 1cp from an 80pt unit isnt worse than 6mws for 2CP from a 340pt unit, which usually cant happen turn 1.

Thank you for the insight.

It's less than 3MW on adverage(when being used in ideal range) Most armies are better off taking a psyker.

It does change the unit's profile to make it more effective -mostly against elite infantry- and I'm not sure a whole lot of mortal wounds in the game is best. But as a SoB player, it's nice to get something that actually helps shooting units and to finally have a unit that can deal MWs.

Lammia wrote:
It's less than 3MW on adverage(when being used in ideal range) Most armies are better off taking a psyker.

It does change the unit's profile to make it more effective -mostly against elite infantry- and I'm not sure a whole lot of mortal wounds in the game is best. But as a SoB player, it's nice to get something that actually helps shooting units and to finally have a unit that can deal MWs.

I get 5.44. Assuming a 5-woman Dominion squad which can take 4 storm bolters for a total of 80pts, you get 16 shots at 12", 0.17 6s to hit x 2 = 5.44 for 1cp, what am I doing wrong?

An aside and an explanation ...

I'm beginning to understand that my problem is one of Perspective. The comparison of one Codex against the other Codex is where the balance lies, not in what X Codex can do versus what I can manage to accomplish with my playstyle in my chosen Codex.

My chosen faction isn't the eternal whipping boy. 7th edition saw the introduction of Chariot Rules, but only in the Necron army. It was too powerful and soon disappeared. The Decurion allowed a chance to play custom armylists, including one with 99% Canoptek units. Hooray! While the Decurion morphed into our current various Detachments ((thanks to the Decurion we now have Detachments that are immune to Troop Tax.)). It faded away, the popularity of a Canoptek Armylist never did, so they are more useful than ever in 9th Edition. It comes and it goes.

So, I just need to be a little aware of what potential is available to others. 3++ used to be the new Black. Not anymore. Now it's a sprinkling of MW turned into a slathering of MW in many cases. That will change too eventually. Sorry if it sounded like whining, folks. I never intended that and apologize.

If you get the 16 shots you've got over 50% chance to do the full 6 mortal wounds.

I don't think SoB are breaking the game - but it does feel "is this what 1 CP is meant to buy you now".

Tyel wrote:
If you get the 16 shots you've got over 50% chance to do the full 6 mortal wounds.

I don't think SoB are breaking the game - but it does feel "is this what 1 CP is meant to buy you now".

Keep in mind sisters don't have psykers supplying them with a ready and easy source of mortal wounds.

 the_scotsman wrote:

Lammia wrote:
It's less than 3MW on adverage(when being used in ideal range) Most armies are better off taking a psyker.

It does change the unit's profile to make it more effective -mostly against elite infantry- and I'm not sure a whole lot of mortal wounds in the game is best. But as a SoB player, it's nice to get something that actually helps shooting units and to finally have a unit that can deal MWs.

I get 5.44. Assuming a 5-woman Dominion squad which can take 4 storm bolters for a total of 80pts, you get 16 shots at 12", 0.17 6s to hit x 2 = 5.44 for 1cp, what am I doing wrong?

Why are you multipling by 2?

Because you do 2MW on each successful hit of a 6. So basically 16 SB shots get 2.66 "6's", which deal 2MW each for 5.33 MW. So without rerolls, 4 ASB shots within 12" almost gets you the max 6MWs. Now add reroll 1s, or Morvenn's reroll all hits. ...

Throw in a Priest, Stern and the Light of Agnathea....and you got some tasty MW output that can't be denied by the opposing player.

Nvm. I see where my maths went wrong. You're right

Tyel wrote:
If you get the 16 shots you've got over 50% chance to do the full 6 mortal wounds.

I don't think SoB are breaking the game - but it does feel "is this what 1 CP is meant to buy you now".

That stratagem is 2 CP for SoB. I don't think that it is really that much of a problem. Yeah no, it is 1 CP, my mistake.


Also, I've seen some quite bad math in this thread.
Averages don't work like that.

You can't use simple averages when there is a cap, you have to use a binomial distribution.

16 shots inflict on average 4.46 MW. For 2 CP it doesn't seem that busted considering that you are also negating yourself the damage from those shots, so the actual wounds inflicted thanks to the stratagem are even less.

Math details:

16 shots have 0.05 chances of landing no 6s for 0 MW
16 shots have 0.173 chances of landing you one 6 for 2 MW
16 shots have 0.26 chances of landing you two 6s for 4 MW
16 shots have 0.51 chances to land you 3 or more 6s for 6 MW

(2*0.173) + (4*0.26) + (0.51*6) = 4.46 MW

But blessed bolts IS 1 cp?

 Galas wrote:
But blessed bolts IS 1 cp?

Oh... you are right.

Geez, when you say it like that. It makes where I went look like nonsense.*

(*Reader, it was)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TomWilton wrote:
An aside and an explanation ...

I'm beginning to understand that my problem is one of Perspective. The comparison of one Codex against the other Codex is where the balance lies, not in what X Codex can do versus what I can manage to accomplish with my playstyle in my chosen Codex.

My chosen faction isn't the eternal whipping boy. 7th edition saw the introduction of Chariot Rules, but only in the Necron army. It was too powerful and soon disappeared. The Decurion allowed a chance to play custom armylists, including one with 99% Canoptek units. Hooray! While the Decurion morphed into our current various Detachments ((thanks to the Decurion we now have Detachments that are immune to Troop Tax.)). It faded away, the popularity of a Canoptek Armylist never did, so they are more useful than ever in 9th Edition. It comes and it goes.

So, I just need to be a little aware of what potential is available to others. 3++ used to be the new Black. Not anymore. Now it's a sprinkling of MW turned into a slathering of MW in many cases. That will change too eventually. Sorry if it sounded like whining, folks. I never intended that and apologize.

Clearly this was a conversation we needed to have and maths that needed to be considered(outside our head).

Dakka's default is complaining, so it's hard to see anything as anything else. That's not on you.

Yes MW are becoming more common. It's something you need to know about and check.

Spoletta wrote:

Tyel wrote:
If you get the 16 shots you've got over 50% chance to do the full 6 mortal wounds.

I don't think SoB are breaking the game - but it does feel "is this what 1 CP is meant to buy you now".

That stratagem is 2 CP for SoB. I don't think that it is really that much of a problem. Yeah no, it is 1 CP, my mistake.


Also, I've seen some quite bad math in this thread.
Averages don't work like that.

You can't use simple averages when there is a cap, you have to use a binomial distribution.

16 shots inflict on average 4.46 MW. For 2 CP it doesn't seem that busted considering that you are also negating yourself the damage from those shots, so the actual wounds inflicted thanks to the stratagem are even less.

Math details:

16 shots have 0.05 chances of landing no 6s for 0 MW
16 shots have 0.173 chances of landing you one 6 for 2 MW
16 shots have 0.26 chances of landing you two 6s for 4 MW
16 shots have 0.51 chances to land you 3 or more 6s for 6 MW

(2*0.173) + (4*0.26) + (0.51*6) = 4.46 MW

Yeah if it were 2cp, it would fall right in line with other mw-causing strats like daemon shell or the heavy bolter one or whatever. Typically 1cp = 2mw, 2cp = 4mw and the only time you get 1cp = 3mw is when you put in SIGNIFICANT points investment - we're talking 300+ points of Hellions and youve managed to keep them alive to turn 2 so you can deal 6mw for 2cp.

This is an 80pt unit that can easily get round about 5mw for 1cp on turn 1.

You are giving up an automatic 2D hit for each 2MW, so the real average wounds from the strat is around 4MW.

Delivering it turn 1 is a little hard, you need either an hymn or a transport.

Strong for sure for 1 CP, but requires a specific unit with a specific wargear and which is then left at 12" from the enemy.

There are many stratagems which give you more than 4 wounds profit and require less setup / risk. This one seems good since it generates MWs, but all those stratagems that for 1 CP give +1 to wound, give more attacks, reroll hits/wounds and so on, usually make more than a 4 wound difference.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
It's even better if your group allows Legends rules where the Sister Superior can take a Storm Bolter too.

Storm Bolter =/= Artificer Storm Bolter. Sorry, doesn't work (unless houseruled).

It's a legitimately great strat. It's not good enough to build a strategy around, but it's 100% good enough to include a sub 100 point dominion squad. (which also has utility with it's scout move). OTOH, that's a trick that will work exactly once per game, as 5 sisters aren't tough to eliminate.

Compare that utility with, say, a firstborn librarian, which is easier to protect, and can smite and get a utility spell, and can fight a little bit, and costs an HQ slot instead of CP.

I think, like a lot of mortal wound strats, it's an easy case of "feel bads" and is a real buggaboo in casual/new player play.

I'm in a Crusade, and I'm looking at taking four storm bolters in my Sacred Rose 20 girl squads, and it seems great, but I also lose meltas/heavy flamers, and it costs CP, so I'm not sure...

20 Sister squads are a great place for Stormbolters. They last longer and get support.

BrianDavion wrote:

Tyel wrote:
If you get the 16 shots you've got over 50% chance to do the full 6 mortal wounds.

I don't think SoB are breaking the game - but it does feel "is this what 1 CP is meant to buy you now".

Keep in mind sisters don't have psykers supplying them with a ready and easy source of mortal wounds.

Yeah, I think this stratagem needs to be taken in context. You're essentially suiciding an 80-point unit in order to kill a couple Terminators. They're not going to survive to do it twice; you need to invest in another 80 points of Rhino to guarantee they get there turn 1; you need some support in order to maximize the chances of getting 4-6 MWs; you don't really have any other reliable source of MWs; your army tools for dealing with heavy infantry are limited.

It's a cool stratagem, makes a small unit way scarier than they should be, and I'm certainly going to build some Dominions... but also, I'm throwing away 5 wounds worth of models to *coin flip* maybe do 6 wounds.

I think the real value of the strat lies in two vectors:

1) turning an 80 pt dominions squad into a bit of a distraction carnifex, only pretty easy to deal with

2) open up the playbook beyond Bloody Rose/Argent shroud Elites and Heavies to give a 20 woman squads with Storm bolters some nasty punch.

If I were to build a Sisters army from the ground up to be competitive, I'm not 100% certain I'd build around that strat.

It's a useful tool, in a tougher world. But it's not game changing on Doms

PenitentJake wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
It's even better if your group allows Legends rules where the Sister Superior can take a Storm Bolter too.

Storm Bolter =/= Artificer Storm Bolter. Sorry, doesn't work (unless houseruled).

Ahhh, good point!