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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lebanon NH


Hey folks,

Just like the title says: in 9th edition, do the humble space-marine scouts still have a place in lists or are they outclassed by eliminators, infiltrators, and other such sneaky-fighty marines?

On the same regard: what about the humble rapier carrier? Has it been made redundant by the new primaris turret?

Thanks for reading!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Rapier carrier is still interesting, but mobility is an issue that hinders them in 9th edition boards. Consider the rapier laser destroyer has similar effective firepower to two iron strider ballistari for only 110 points (vs 150). Iron striders though have 10” movement and extra 12” range, which lets them bring their firepower to bear on more ideal targets, and they can also split the shots if needed.

The las-talon servo-turret is strictly worse in every way compared to the rapier laser destroyer save two: 2+ BS and save vs 3+ BS and save. Honestly there is no circumstance where I’d consider the new turret good in any list, ever. If you want autocannons or lascannons take suppressors or predators or contemptor dreads, and even those aren’t that great (which should tell you how bad the new turret is).

Really in raw firepower per point the rapier is decent, but the trouble is trying to shoot an ideal target. And the mortar version is only S4 0AP and blast 4d3. The blast part sounds okay until you realize you have to be shooting 11+ models for it to matter.

Scouts are, as you say, overshadowed by infiltrators, incursors, eliminators, and are, quite frankly, hideous models. The worst part about them is being in the elite slot, when like 2/3 of space marines’ best units are elites. You can’t afford to use a slot on lowly scouts because of that, when you can kill two birds (scout deploy and troops slot) with infiltrators or incursors.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/16 14:00:50


 
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

i think the shift to elites was, in part, a move by GW to curb perceived abuse of scouts in earlier editions, where they were used "loyal 32" style to fill out detachment rosters to grant CP while costing the least amount of points. this ran counter to the current drive by GW to make the factions "play like their lore", so it had to go.

Personally, i'd have either kept them as troops but removed obsec, etc form them (to make tacs/intercessors more attractive), or moved them to fast attack (to better emphasise their "infiltrators" angle), but GW decided that elites was where they should go, which leaves them in a poor position.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Yeah, with the lack of the extra wound that literally every other Marine got, and the move into Elites, I feel like GW were finally admitting they were as embarrassed by the Scout models as they should have been all along. In conjunction, those two things were GW putting a big sign on them going "please don't use these any more".

I feel like a better solution would have been to leave them in Troops but have some sort of additional restriction, similar to DG with Poxwalkers, where you can't take them until you've taken some Proper Marine Troops first. I'd have loved to have seen a re-worked, re-scaled Scout kit akin to the Space Marine Heroes Tacticals / Termies, but I think all that energy was being directed towards Vanguard Primaris instead, sadly.

   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Scouts haven't played an important tactical role since early 8th, when stuff like HellFire shells were still cool strategems. They played a huge strategic role in being cheap troops choices that deployed forward.

Now, infiltrators do that job better, while being far more durable, and a troops choice, while admittedly being 10ppm more expensive.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Thier relevance depends upon your collection.

For ex;
I have two SM forces, DA & SW, where I often use scouts.
My SW will NEVER have any Primaris units. So its impossible for my scouts to lose thier slot in my force.
My DA - I'm not adverse to adding similar themed Primaris units, I've just never gotten around to it yet. And honestly probably won't for years to come.(unless I happen to come across a nicely painted unit for sale, but as I'm not actually looking....)
So my scout squads are secure.
What has happened is that now I tend to run the Elite focused detachment alot vs the troop slot based ones.
   
Made in us
Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine




I think action monkey scouts have some play in combination with a Land Speeder Storm. They can hop out of the LSS after moving because of the assault vehicle rule and perform an action.

I don't know. It's something.
   
Made in ca
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader






Scouts are pretty cheap, and have a small footprint. I plan to add a squad or two to my new lists moving forward just for some extra deployment shenanigans which doesn't cost a heap.

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Made in us
Splattered With Acrylic Paint




The most important thing about scouts is that anyone who was serious about them had to make their own. You’d have to use a power armor torso, legs from fantasy or guard, arms definitely from marauders or beastmen, not guard, and usually a third party head, with all the cutting, filing, and gap filling that entailed.

So obviously since GW’s whole product is kits that are self contained in once box, they weren’t going to get a lot of promotion with the rules.

I liked the metal scouts pretty well, I like the little rebreather / microphone thing on their collar. You’d paint it so it kind of underlines the face.
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Curvaceous wrote:
The most important thing about scouts is that anyone who was serious about them had to make their own. You’d have to use a power armor torso, legs from fantasy or guard, arms definitely from marauders or beastmen, not guard, and usually a third party head, with all the cutting, filing, and gap filling that entailed.

So obviously since GW’s whole product is kits that are self contained in once box, they weren’t going to get a lot of promotion with the rules.

I liked the metal scouts pretty well, I like the little rebreather / microphone thing on their collar. You’d paint it so it kind of underlines the face.



What?
   
Made in us
Splattered With Acrylic Paint




What?
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Nobody had to make their own models as GW sold a kit?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Splattered With Acrylic Paint




It looks like garbage and “anyone who is serious about them” still has to make make their own

like this one
or this one:





Automatically Appended Next Post:
nobody is excited about their army when they put down those ugly official models. Nobody is using scouts because of the “buy what you think looks good” method of army building.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/16 21:41:04


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






^I came across some head swaps the other day and they honestly wound up looking pretty baller.
https://mcmattilaminis.wordpress.com/2020/05/01/revelators-scout-squad/

So I'd call the kit pretty functional. Easier to convert than that SW one.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in nl
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

Pretty kewl scout.

   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





Scouts have been more or less irrelevant since primaris. Those models are some of, if not the worst in the marine line. They're increasingly mentioned less and less and I assume for a lot of people don't fit with the fantasy of the faction. I could see the entire kits being discontinued, and shelved.

Maybe the black templars will do something with them? They're supposed to be a little more important in their squad structure.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/16 22:08:50


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Scouts do still have access to the Mortal Wound dealing Hellfire and Flakk Missile strats. And for those of us who will never use Primaris they remain the infiltrating/sniping choice. Cheap too.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





 Insectum7 wrote:
Scouts do still have access to the Mortal Wound dealing Hellfire and Flakk Missile strats. And for those of us who will never use Primaris they remain the infiltrating/sniping choice. Cheap too.
It's not that Scouts don't have a place. It's that GW have let them languish.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Scouts do still have access to the Mortal Wound dealing Hellfire and Flakk Missile strats. And for those of us who will never use Primaris they remain the infiltrating/sniping choice. Cheap too.
It's not that Scouts don't have a place. It's that GW have let them languish.
Not sure what they'd do to improve them in a way that fits with their legacy other than giving them the MeltaBomb keyword. As a non-Primaris user I'm pretty happy with where they are.

Actually the other thing I'd consider is giving them a Teleport Homer so they could call Terminators to their position in the middle of a battle. That'd be rad.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I have scouts with tempestus heads and they look fine.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





xerxeskingofking wrote:
i think the shift to elites was, in part, a move by GW to curb perceived abuse of scouts in earlier editions, where they were used "loyal 32" style to fill out detachment rosters to grant CP while costing the least amount of points. this ran counter to the current drive by GW to make the factions "play like their lore", so it had to go.

Personally, i'd have either kept them as troops but removed obsec, etc form them (to make tacs/intercessors more attractive), or moved them to fast attack (to better emphasise their "infiltrators" angle), but GW decided that elites was where they should go, which leaves them in a poor position.


Scouts would be in a pretty poor position in the FA slot too, there's not as much competition there but the slots are much more limited. Leave them in Troops and even without ObSec they'd still be the default choice by virtue of being cheaper than anything else.

If GW doesn't want Scouts to be the backbone of most Marine lists then Elites is probably the best place for them, although 70 points is still too expensive for them if they're not paying the troop tax.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/17 00:36:32


 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





I'm currently painting up 3 units of Scouts as a labor of love. Strictly for my non competitive Ultramarines army, with a modern military desert theme.

Scouts benefit from UM tactics with cheap bolter fire, and heavy weapons. I'm taking 1 unit Snipers, 1 Unit bolters. I'm also bringing the pistol, combat knife variety, which serve little purpose, but I'm committed to my Theme.

The Scouts will be backed by Infiltrators, Reivers, and Eliminators respectively.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Curvaceous wrote:
The most important thing about scouts is that anyone who was serious about them had to make their own. You’d have to use a power armor torso, legs from fantasy or guard, arms definitely from marauders or beastmen, not guard, and usually a third party head, with all the cutting, filing, and gap filling that entailed.


BS.
These guys have been serving my SWs just fine for longer than most of you reading this have bee playing. I expect them to keep right on doing so until the day GW squats them. (in wich case they'll cross the Primaris Rubicon & go right on serving - just on slightly bigger bases. )

[Thumb - scouts.jpg]

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






^I think I have a squad of those knocking around somewhere. They were the only models I kept when I sold my original UM army back in 2nd ed.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





So I played a small game (40 PL) with my mostly Scouts list, and it was... ouch.

Outflanking a small group of Scouts with bolters was the only effective play they had.

I might bring a group of Snipers in bigger games for fun, but sadly, I might just port these guys over to Killteam. It's a shame because I want to like Scouts.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lebanon NH

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
So I played a small game (40 PL) with my mostly Scouts list, and it was... ouch.

Outflanking a small group of Scouts with bolters was the only effective play they had.

I might bring a group of Snipers in bigger games for fun, but sadly, I might just port these guys over to Killteam. It's a shame because I want to like Scouts.


Ouch indeed! Honestly, that sounds painful! ...though it might be fun if someone did a "scout based army" vs. "some other terrible unit based army" type game just to compare currently bad units :-)
   
 
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