Switch Theme:

Returning "attached" Drones to Tau  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




All units with accompanying or attached drones get:

Drone Support
The T'au dominion makes extensive use of semi-intelligent drones in every sphere of life. On the battlefield, teams of Fire Warriors are accompanied by support networks of hovering drones capable of laying down covering fire, marking targets for elimination, or selflessly protecting their organic comrades.
If a unit with this ability includes (or included) any models with the word ‘Drone’ in their profile:
  • These models have the DRONE keyword, and can move as if they have the FLY keyword.
  • Each time an attack successfully hits this unit, use the Toughness of non-DRONE models in this unit (if possible) when determining what roll is required for that attack to successfully wound.
  • DRONE models in this unit are ignored for the purposes of Morale tests, determining this unit’s Starting Strength, or for any unit composition or wargear options that require a minimum number of models in the unit.
  • If this unit includes only DRONE models, this unit’s INFANTRY, BIKER or VEHICLE keyword is replaced with the SWARM keyword, and it is considered to have been destroyed for the purposes of secondary objectives.

  • Vehicles with attached drones also get:

    Attached Drones
    Modular drone ports allow vehicles of the Hunter Cadre to deploy supporting drones without compromising on aerodynamism or transport capacity. On the battlefield, these drones remain installed to provide additional firepower, or detach to screen their carrier from enemy counterattacks.
    Each DRONE model in this unit is attached to a VEHICLE model in this unit, specified in the unit composition. Attached DRONES have the following abilities:
  • DRONE models can embark within and disembark from the VEHICLE model they are attached to, as if they were a separate unit and it were a TRANSPORT (if it is a TRANSPORT, they do not count toward the total number of models embarked). All DRONE models attached to each VEHICLE model must embark and disembark together.
  • A VEHICLE model with any attached DRONE models embarked within it is considered to be equipped with their weapons in addition to its own.



  • Automatically Appended Next Post:
    No more piddly little two-Drone units, and no more Saviour Protocols, except as a Stratagem or a specific ability for a Tactical Drone Network unit.

    Drones remain as part of a unit, meaning they can just soak up wounds by having them allocated. Their Toughness is ignored, so there's no need to slow-roll.

    Works the same for Drones attached to a Vehicle, effectively giving you two "modes"; if the Drones are "embarked", they're using the Vehicle's BS and Move (e.g. 4+/12" for a Devilfish). If they're not embarked, they form part of the unit, using their own BS and Move (e.g. 5+/8"), but they can have wounds allocated to them instead of the Vehicle.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/18 01:10:19


     
       
    Made in gb
    Lord of the Fleet






    London

    I'm wondering if it's worth reintroducing the old Shield Drone mechanic of X Toughness, so it matches whatever unit it's attached to. That way you can tone down Saviour Protocols, but the unit will still have some ablative wounds.

    Also, does the vehicle mechanic cover squadrons? If a single Piranha is destroyed do all the Drones in the squad have to disembark?
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




     Valkyrie wrote:
    I'm wondering if it's worth reintroducing the old Shield Drone mechanic of X Toughness, so it matches whatever unit it's attached to. That way you can tone down Saviour Protocols, but the unit will still have some ablative wounds.
    That's the intent here, yes. You ignore DRONE Toughness when shooting at a unit with attached Drones (to avoid having to slow-roll until the Drones are dead), so they're just extra models in the unit that you can allocate wounds to – no need for Saviour Protocols.

     Valkyrie wrote:
    Also, does the vehicle mechanic cover squadrons? If a single Piranha is destroyed do all the Drones in the squad have to disembark?
    No, only the ones attached to the destroyed Piranha would disembark – but looking at it, that does make Piranhas very vulnerable to being slowed down...

    The intent behind the VEHICLE change is that models like the Hammerhead, Devilfish, Skyray and Sunshark would have two "modes" – one with Drones installed, where they get both guns at full BS with no Threat Identification Protocols, and one with Drones "loose", where they get to use the Drones as ablative wounds (very useful for assigning a dark lance hit, etc) but have to use the Drone BS for those guns with Threat Identification Protocols, and are slowed down to the Drones' speed (i.e. 12" down to 8", or 20-50" down to 20" for the Sun Shark).

    Squadrons are a problem, however, because if a single Piranha dies, the whole unit drops from 16" to 8", since the Drones of that one Pirahna are released. That's not really the intent behind the "modes" dynamic, here. I guess one solution would be to just bump up the Move characteristic of Piranha Drones to 12". Alternatively, I could just turn the Piranhas into separate units once deployed.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 02:43:46


     
       
    Made in gb
    Battleship Captain





    Bristol (UK)

    Drones detaching from a transport but continuing to count as part of it's unit is strange IMO.

    IIRC in prior editions of 40k drones that disembarked from a vehicle formed their own separate unit. No reason to change it up.
       
    Made in ca
    Poisonous Kroot Headhunter





    Even ignoring the drone's toughness, you're still likely having to slow roll the saves right? I mean, the drones aren't going to have the same SV characteristic as most of the models they are part of. Or is the save taken from the unit in question, and drones just removed as casualties after? ie: My Iridium suit just failed a single 2+ save, well bye bye single drone.

    Don't get me wrong, Tau could sure use a buff and this would even the scales a decent amount, just curious if that was the intent or not.

    17210 4965 3235 5350 2936 2273 1176 2675
    1614 1342 1010 2000 960 1330 1040  
       
    Made in gb
    Battleship Captain





    Bristol (UK)

    Multiple toughnesses in a unit is a problem because the defender chooses which model to resolve the attacks on first, but they only do that in the armour saves, after the wound roll.

    In 7th edition the unit used the toughness of the majority of models. This required slow rolling with mixed-toughness units as the majority toughness might change half way through.
    This was also a big problem for Riptides, who would see their T7(?) reduced to just T4 if they brought along two drones.

    8th edition solved this by removing all mixed toughness units. The character change did 90% of this, and I'm sure it was a key driver behind the change to drones.

    Just make Drones toughness X, or 4 when alone, and all is resolved.
       
    Made in us
    Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






    What if you treat accompanying drones as "as-if" weapons? Say:

    "...this unit can include up to 2 of SHIELD DRONE, GUN DRONE, AND MARKER DRONE. These drones must be placed as close to the purchasing unit and must maintain coherency, but otherwise does not contribute to maintaining coherency*. When purchased in this manner, replace the DRONE keyword with LINKED DRONE"

    Then,

    Accompanying Drones
    "In your shooting phase, if you have any LINKED DRONE equipped with a ranged weapon, you may make shooting attacks using the profile for the weapon the drones are equipped with using the BS of the purchasing unit."

    Then, make savior protocol an ability exclusive to LINKED DRONE, and make a new stratagem that changes DRONE to LINKED DRONE

    Manual Drone Uplink
    2 CP/3 CP

    At the end of your movement phase, if there are any DRONE units within 2" of BATTLESUIT unit equipped with DRONE CONTROLLER, replace DRONE keyword with LINKED DRONE for that DRONE unit. This stratagem costs 2 CP if the DRONE unit has less than X models and costs 3 CP if otherwise.

    *Drones must always be within 2" of purchasing unit, but the purchasing unit cannot use the drone models to establish coherency (i.e. drone cannot be one of the two models when unit > 5 models).

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 16:47:51


     
       
    Made in us
    Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin





    Livermore, Ca

    You could also make it a 1cp stratagem, if you want to use tau savior protocals on a drone unit that wasn't originally part of the battlesuit unit. Then you can only abuse savior protocals once per turn (lasts until the end of the phase). And its critical that battlesuits need to purchase their available drones just like it used to be in 3rd edition.

    Of course if you build in this limitation, we better get some good rules in the next codex. 2nd to bottom out of 20 armies is not a happy place vs being like 2nd to top before. (Not that my win/loss record was disrupted much, just my unit selections changed a lot, less vehicles, more battlesuits)

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 18:30:27


     
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




     kirotheavenger wrote:
    Drones detaching from a transport but continuing to count as part of it's unit is strange IMO.

    IIRC in prior editions of 40k drones that disembarked from a vehicle formed their own separate unit. No reason to change it up.
    In 3e-7e, there were two kinds of accompanying Drones.

  • Infantry (and Battlesuits) had Drones form part of their unit; you used them as ablative wounds by allocating hits to them.
  • Vehicles had Drones that were "attached", effectively as wargear, and could be "detached" into a separate, tiny non-scoring Drone units when the Vehicle was destroyed or they wanted to detach.

  • The Infantry/Battlesuits version was great; it's how Drones are meant to work in the setting, and it worked out that way in practice, because Drones are worse than Infantry/Battlesuits, so you want them to take hits first. The Vehicle version was less good, however; in the lore, these attached Drones were meant to be a modular system; they could be installed in the Vehicle to add firepower, or detach to screen enemy shots and head off on their own missions... but they couldn't intercept attacks because they weren't part of the same unit, and they couldn't really head off on their own missions since they couldn't score or do anything of note. They were basically just a neat little extra if the Vehicle died.

    (8e changed things so that Infantry/Battlesuit Drones work the same as "detached" Drones right from the start, giving you reams of tiny, non-scoring Drone units which now need Saviour Protocols to soak up shots)

    This version brings back the original Infantry/Battlesuits version, and attempts to rework the Vehicle version to fit the lore a bit better. Now you have two "modes" for Vehicle Drones – you can use them as installed weapons, at full BS and VEHICLE shooting rules, or you can detach them into separate models and have them intercept enemy shots, hovering around the Vehicle as a screen. They also keep their "detach on death" function – the only loss is the ability to spawn a new unit of Drones mid-game, but the utility of that function is kind of limited to begin with. It'd need a rework to be worth keeping.

     kirotheavenger wrote:
    Multiple toughnesses in a unit is a problem because the defender chooses which model to resolve the attacks on first, but they only do that in the armour saves, after the wound roll.

    In 7th edition the unit used the toughness of the majority of models. This required slow rolling with mixed-toughness units as the majority toughness might change half way through.
    This was also a big problem for Riptides, who would see their T7(?) reduced to just T4 if they brought along two drones.

    8th edition solved this by removing all mixed toughness units. The character change did 90% of this, and I'm sure it was a key driver behind the change to drones.

    Just make Drones toughness X, or 4 when alone, and all is resolved.
    Again, not a problem here because you ignore DRONE Toughness in mixed units. Attacks against Fire Warriors/Stealth Suits/Crisis Suits always roll against T3/4/5, no matter how many Drones they have.

    Note that 8e/9e does have mixed Toughness units; Deathwatch get them via Kill Teams, Space Marines can use Might of Heroes to create them, Genestealer Familiars, Ork Grot Helpers, etc. The rules just specify whose Toughness to use, like they do here – ignore the DRONES.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 02:43:13


     
       
    Made in gb
    Battleship Captain





    Bristol (UK)

    I don't think drones intercepting hits for tanks makes much sense, and I don't remember reading that in the lore. They detach to do their own independent thing.

    You're right that in 40k there's no much benefit to doing so. It'd probably be OP if they scored or performed actions, but otherwise there's no benefit.
    Since 40k doesn't have flanking or scouting or suppressing or any mechanics beyond killing (which they do better attached to the vehicle).

    Perhaps give drones a "mob up" rule to allow them to form larger units from multiple vehicles or the stragglers of damaged units.
    Then give them either a "hive mind" type rule where there stats increase the more drones are in a unit. Perhaps also an AI rule depending on the type of drone that forces the drones to do certain things, although that is probably too difficult to implement in the context of 40k.
    I think the allowing vehicles to form units with drones is a bit of a cludge. Although Riptides already get drones anyway so even GW gives zero feths about my opinion

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 07:42:26


     
       
    Made in us
    Dakka Veteran




    I've got something vaguely similar over on my workstation, but it starts with some broad concepts. Drone stats getting changed to a 3 Toughness, 4+ Save, and the same LD as a fire Warrior, for instance, so that you don't need special rules for a mixed unit.

    On top of this, a Fire Warrior unit (as an example) has 0-2 Tactical Drones and 0-2 Support Drones as options for the squad... drones are just assigned to a squad right out of the gate, to prevent the games people hate, where 40 shield drones go babysit some powerhouse unit(s) and ugh, just UGH.

    So, instead, drones are part of a squad, take casualties like any other member of the squad, but do their job.

    Drones with a vehicle can split off into a two-model unit, and a squad of just drones (like the fast attack choice) exists, but notably it's just gun drones and marker drones and they don't tank for any other unit.

    Shield Drones are there as bodyguards for one unit, like an Ethereal, a Commander, and so on, forming a unit with them (so an Ethereal with two shield drones is a single three-model unit), letting you assign hits like usual and it makes life just SO much better.

    But that's a different approach, I think.
       
    Made in gb
    Lord of the Fleet






    London

    I'd definitely prefer that approach over making it CP based.
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




     kirotheavenger wrote:
    I don't think drones intercepting hits for tanks makes much sense, and I don't remember reading that in the lore. They detach to do their own independent thing.

    Looks like that's mainly in the lore for Interceptor Drones on the Sun Shark Bomber. Which they also can't do, but hey-ho.

    Honestly, ObSec for independent DRONES - or some other, similarly worthwhile strategic/tactical role - feels like the only real way to deliver on the "Drones go off to achieve separate missions" lore. Drones as interceptors and chaff is a lot easier to execute...

     kirotheavenger wrote:

    I think the allowing vehicles to form units with drones is a bit of a cludge. Although Riptides already get drones anyway so even GW gives zero feths about my opinion
    Honestly, I'd make Crisis Suits into VEHICLES too. It's functionally what they are, and using BATTLESUIT but not INFANTRY or VEHICLE leaves them in this awkward non-typed place. Even in terms of stats, they're only a little way off a typical "small walker" (e.g. Penitent, Kan), and Broadsides are considerably chunkier than those!

    It's also why I'd tag Drones as SWARMS.

    (and obviously all MONSTER BATTLESUITS would become VEHICLES, because that's dumb legacy code)
       
    Made in gb
    Battleship Captain





    Bristol (UK)

    Drones really shouldn't be swarms, that's for stuff like Scarabs where multiple tiny small creatures occupy one base.

    Battlesuits definitely skirt the line between infantry and vehicle.
    I worry about giving Broadsides vehicle though, as that would enable them to run and gun with their railgun which is kinda exactly the opposite of what they're supposed to be.
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




     kirotheavenger wrote:
    Drones really shouldn't be swarms, that's for stuff like Scarabs where multiple tiny small creatures occupy one base.
    Honestly, I think it's fine? The SWARM units currently in the game are Necron Scarabs, Nurglings, Rippers, Razorwing Flocks, Borewyrms, and Mutoids. They're mechanically irrelevant except for when writers remember to say "and SWARMS" after mentioning INFANTRY.

    Drones need a unit type – there are too many rules in the game that assume you have one. BEASTS don't work because there are a few rules that work on the assumption BEASTS are wild animals you can scare/tame. They're obviously not BIKERS or CAVALRY. VEHICLES or MONSTERS would produce totally wild unwanted outcomes. So they've got to be INFANTRY or SWARMS. Not being INFANTRY handles a lot of things that Drones already do – like ignore Heavy penalties, not be able to take actions, etc – and SWARM fits thematically, even if there aren't multiple Drones on a single base. The alternative is just to make them INFANTRY and then have them ignore the implications of that.

     kirotheavenger wrote:
    Battlesuits definitely skirt the line between infantry and vehicle.
    I worry about giving Broadsides vehicle though, as that would enable them to run and gun with their railgun which is kinda exactly the opposite of what they're supposed to be.
    Easy enough to handle this, honestly – just give them a shooting bonus for Remaining Stationary.

    I'd make Stealth Battlesuits INFANTRY BATTLESUITS, and then tag everything at XV8 and above as a VEHICLE BATTLESUIT. Bump Crisis/Hazard Suits up to T5/W4.

    ...also, random aside, but why are Broadsides XV88? Tau Battlesuits are numbered by [Size Class] and [Role/Status]. The Broadside [Size 8] is substantially bigger than the Crisis [Size 8], but approximately same size as the Hazard [Size 9], and they're both considerably smaller than the Ghostkeel [Size 9]. As it stands, they surely ought to go XV7 Crisis, XV74 Enforcer, XV76 Coldstar, XV88 Broadside, XV89 (or XV84) Hazard, XV95 Ghostkeel, XV10 Riptide, XV102 R'Varna (Hailfire), XV109 Y'Vahra (Reefblade). Or is the Crisis kit just old enough that actual, normal Crisis Suits are meant to be Broadside-sized?

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/14 12:41:09


     
       
    Made in gb
    Battleship Captain





    Bristol (UK)

    Swarm doesn't fit thematically because they're nothing like the other swarms.
    Drones are large enough to be single model bases, the fundemental purpose of SWARM is for stuff that isn't.

    As such the only viable option is infantry, and then you need to add special rules to cover the differences.

    Broadsides being XV88 is a holdover from when they were a conversion kit of XV8 crisis suits.
    Spoiler:

    Hazard suits similarly were named before Ghostkeels existed, and it's possible the GW writer who came up with XV9 for the Ghostkeel wasn't even aware of the Forgeworld Hazard suit or it's designation. That or they just wanted an intermediate between XV8 and the XV104 Riptide, and just didn't care. Ghostkeels could reasonably pass for '10' though anyway. Broadside should definitely have been moved to '9' along with the new model.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/22 11:03:07


     
       
     
    Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
    Go to: