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Made in gb
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Killer Klaivex







https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=5921530194556230&set=a.120677327974908


Hello, today I bring yet another evidence of how someone who bases their work on the work of others, literally modifies files without morals or shame.

I admit that I have had to calm my temper as I have practically gone into a rage, but I really have nothing to gain by insulting this person.

It is simply for you to see, what many of you support on Raven Twin miniatures patreon, how he is capable of doing things like this... I can simply leave here the images and confirm, once again, what I have been denouncing for a long time. But I'm not going to leave you out of anger anymore, it's time for your consumers to know who you are... to know what you do and how you've grown up. With the work of others, with such a hard face that you do so shamelessly.

I want to say that I didn't look for this, it was passed on to me, I don't know what this person does monthly in his PAtreon, but today many will know and I hope it will be shared until the end of the world, as this is not new, it is his method... and you will say, but man, if it's only a little piece....
Excuse me, but for just a little piece your work is defended.

You have no honour nor have you ever known it, I simply wish you get what you deserve, the contempt of the community, this damages and intoxicates the world.


What do you all think? Does it look like he was ripped off or not?
[Thumb - Capture.JPG]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 13:06:01



 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







On the face of it, the pieces look very similar. The angle on the armour on the beastman makes it hard to see, but the "rear" rows of rings (if we count the main section as being 7 columns wide, I mean columns 2, 4 and 6) look a wee bit different at the bottom edge. Otherwise, very similar.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Martial Arts Fiday






Nashville, TN

How many different ways can you do chain mail??? Lol "you have no honour..."

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I have to admit this one might sound odd to those who are not into sculpting in a professional way because the actual models are different, its more the chain mail patterning that's similar. Thing is how much of that is a copy and how much is just a default pattern cut and moved around.

It's a tricky one as I know that patterning like that can most certainly be copyrighted/owned and thus copied without permission. Meanwhile in the real world sculpting the same design could be emulated because you'd be copying the process of creation


Honestly I suspect lay people might not be able to weigh in on this one only those into digital sculpting and that world who know the subtle difference

Asides how many chain mail patterns are there out there?

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Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Also the mail is actually the wrong way around anyway

The pattern should be rotated 90 degrees to retain flexibility. The way that is put together means that the pattern opens and stiffens under the weight of the hanging material.

In terms of patterns, you get single links, like that pattern where every link goes through 4 others. You can get a double thickness mail where every link goes through 8 surrounding links. I suppose with bigger links you could increase the density, but you would quickly get to something that no longer flexes because its too interlinked. At that point, may as well use a steel plate rather than mail.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/23 15:43:44


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





It'd be one thing if they actually cannibalized the mesh from the other model and kitbashed it in, which I think is what the implication is, but in this case it's probably just a coincidence in the pattern and/or liking symmetry.

Looking at the actual patreon post images between the two artists, there are technical differences that would be difficult to *extract and alter without a lot of distortion or wasted time. Raven's Twin's chain links are actually more spaced, particularity on the right side; where as with Ruiz's iron orcs the links are butting up and welded together. It'd be damn hard to break the welded mesh links, clean them up, and introduce a gap in spacing them vs just sculpting from scratch. And by sculpting I mean making 1 or 2 torus primitives and array meshing them.

*Unless Ruiz isn't booleaning any of his final stl parts together, which is bad for a variety of reasons.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 05:25:24


 
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







That they put the exact same bit of chainmail on the model 4 times is already crime enough, stolen or not.

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They are similar but not the same.

Depending on the platform that was used to build the model, it may come with same parameters you can control to build the links.

Like others have stated, cleanly/professionally extracting out a piece/section of mesh from one model and integrating them onto a different model requires the same, if not more man hours, to do so due to the clean up & fitting required. This is distinct from your simple DIY mesh mixing.

It's not a simple copy-pasta you think it is.

At best, the two authors learned how to make chainlink mesh from the same source, resulting in strikingly similar results. Alternatively, it would be much faster to simply obtain the dimensions of the existing chainlink mesh and making it yourself, rather than actually extracting out that portion.

If Ruiz prepared their model so that its parts can be readily extracted out and reused, it's Ruiz's fault for not protecting themselves properly. And why would you release a 3d model? Is that the common practice in patreon? If so, that's simply terrible business model - you should only be supplying the STL - the file that's already gone through destructive process, not the actual 3d model purchasers can edit and print.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 18:53:40


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Cananda

 skchsan wrote:
They are similar but not the same.

Depending on the platform that was used to build the model, it may come with same parameters you can control to build the links.

Like others have stated, cleanly/professionally extracting out a piece/section of mesh from one model and integrating them onto a different model requires the same, if not more man hours, to do so due to the clean up & fitting required. This is distinct from your simple DIY mesh mixing.

It's not a simple copy-pasta you think it is.

At best, the two authors learned how to make chainlink mesh from the same source, resulting in strikingly similar results. Alternatively, it would be much faster to simply obtain the dimensions of the existing chainlink mesh and making it yourself, rather than actually extracting out that portion.

If Ruiz prepared their model so that its parts can be readily extracted out and reused, it's Ruiz's fault for not protecting themselves properly. And why would you release a 3d model? Is that the common practice in patreon? If so, that's simply terrible business model - you should only be supplying the STL - the file that's already gone through destructive process, not the actual 3d model purchasers can edit and print.


Bayonet & Ricochet Miniatures here. As a qualified expert in this field I have a few thoughts. "why would you release a 3d model"? An STL file is a full 3D model STLs are a 3D file of a 3D model similar to an OBJ or CAD file. The Majority of 3D modelling software can open STL files. Releasing a 3D model in pieces or decimated(the process of decimation to remove all clean topology on a model and lower it's polycount number of poloygons without losing detail on the 3D model). None of that does anything at all in any capacity to prevent someone skilled enough in 3D modelling to cut up a model and remodel it in zbrush, maya, blender etc. It's not even a speed bump for most skilled modlers.

Even if they took a direct copy of a model and cut off pieces of it and pasted it on a new miniature, it would still not be a copyrightable offence because the works are unique enough to justify it as an original concept. Regardless of how it was made.

Lastly, it's not the same piece it was not copied and pasted. Chainmail Alpha patterns brushes are not only open source but also free. Chainmail is not a copyrightable pattern. This entire thing is silly. If this guy is copying the other guy then the first guy is copying chaos marines, D&D and whatever.

It's silly and anyone with 3D modelling experience can quickly tell it may be inspired by but it's not the same work. Are Shoulderpads copyright infringement? Are swords or axes?

I honestly feel at this point the guy is just trying to attack a competitor who is making similar works to their own. If you had the skills to sculpt this stuff in the first place you would know all the above. The dude allegedly ripped off his design from GW. Then goes out of his way to target someone with similar work.

I'd like to state that I'm not associated with either group or business/company. I just think it's silly.

Thanks.












Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
I have to admit this one might sound odd to those who are not into sculpting in a professional way because the actual models are different, its more the chain mail patterning that's similar. Thing is how much of that is a copy and how much is just a default pattern cut and moved around.

It's a tricky one as I know that patterning like that can most certainly be copyrighted/owned and thus copied without permission. Meanwhile in the real world sculpting the same design could be emulated because you'd be copying the process of creation


Honestly I suspect lay people might not be able to weigh in on this one only those into digital sculpting and that world who know the subtle difference

Asides how many chain mail patterns are there out there?


You'd have to look at both STL files and it would probably be still impossible to tell because they likely decimated the mesh by lowering the polycount(squares/triangles also known as faces and vertices). In addition, Zbrush has built-in chainmail links you can add dynamically to any model there are over 2 ways to crate insta chainmail on a model. I'm sure blender has a few options as well.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 17:11:30


 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Does Zbrush have the mail in the right orientation? Or does it just give you a single link to play with?

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
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Regular Dakkanaut





 Flinty wrote:
Does Zbrush have the mail in the right orientation? Or does it just give you a single link to play with?

Both. If they used the micropoly function the default chain mail is in the correct orientation, and option to rotate axis it is one click away.
You can create a subtools based on a sample of the individual link/parts, or use another selected subtool from your project to use instead, this tutorial covers the function rather well, I wouldn't put it past either artist having used it.
There's completely different ways to tackle mails using prefab or original assets. Video game artists likely use a different pipeline than sculptors for 3d printing.

   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Hah. If it’s so easy to get right, the. Both parties must have been trying to get it wrong

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





 Flinty wrote:
Hah. If it’s so easy to get right, the. Both parties must have been trying to get it wrong

True. Maybe one did copy the other after all.
Not like there's a shortage of historical resource references out there either. Granted some online image results are just textures without orientation context.
I've probably done what they did in concept art before, but that's just communicating the idea of material not a finished product.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

It also happens when a designer uses another 3D design to inspire them. So one mistakes gets perpetuated over and over again.

When I see mistakes like that I think they generally mark a few things

1) A designer without direct experience of a thing. If they've never worked or used chain mail before there is every chance they'll get things wrong when modelling it because they've no means to sift references they find online into right and wrong piles.
Google can give you a million results, but it presents no curation, sorting, accuracy scores or anything; its just a popular search result and its very very easy for incorrect things to rank high.

2) Area is low attention. They might feel that the area of the model holds low attention so they don't feel a need to detail it or to research it in depth or put time into it. A good common one is the rear legs of most animals. In side profile they look fine, but from behind or underneath you can often see that, whilst the front legs are fine, the hind tend to be a blank spot for many designers. Because its often an area underneath the model and generally invisible during most viewing and play on the tabletop its not a prime area that many are concerned with detailing.

3) Influential design inspiration. Very common for copy-cat style models of GW designs; but in general if there's one design or a couple that really inspire the design of further models, then any mistake on the core model (or art) can then be perpetuated through latter designs. The mistake basically just gets repeated and repeated. If this happens enough it even ends up a common design theme even though its wrong

4) Practicalities of model making. Sometimes a design just isn't practical to model because it will break or never print/cast reliably. You can see this with a lot ow bows in models which do not have a string, because to make one requires it to be pretty thick. So it either needs to be really outlandish (like lumineth strings) or thick by nature otherwise it might stand out as strange.
It's also why most bows have "fired" and have a relaxed pose even when the characters pose is lined up to take a shot. Because it gets them out of having to make the arrow as well.

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