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Made in us
Been Around the Block




I have been out of Warhammer since 2003ish, and am looking to come back so I've been playing with Battlescribe to mock up some lists and get a feel for the game again.

I think I understand how the [legends] tag works (at least in regards to Battlescribe), basically it's an older version of a model that is no longer going to receive updates, but is still legal for most games.

I was looking at Wolf Lords, and noticed that Wolf Lord on Bike has the ability "Jarl of Fenris" which looks to be a Captain reroll, but not limited to Core. Going back to (what I think is the source material, but I could be wrong) the Space Wolves Legends pdf on the Warhammer Community website shows it has Rites of Battle instead of Jarl, but again no language limiting it to Core.

Basically, my questions:
1) Are some of my assumptions incorrect?
2) I am missing some errata that says "update all Rites of Battle to be Core-only"
3) It is actually a non-Core Captain reroll?
   
Made in au
Calm Celestian




Legends gets no support, so what you've got is a 8th vs 9th edition rules conflict.

The easy and widely acceptable way would be to use Jarl of Fenris as it appears for Wolf Lords in the Codex instead of rites of battle.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Lammia wrote:
Legends gets no support, so what you've got is a 8th vs 9th edition rules conflict.


There is no conflict. The rule does what it says it does.

Lammia wrote:
The easy and widely acceptable way would be to use Jarl of Fenris as it appears for Wolf Lords in the Codex instead of rites of battle.


Or, you know, just follow the printed rules for the model....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kaied wrote:

Basically, my questions:
1) Are some of my assumptions incorrect?


Partially on Legends being legal in most games. While you were gone things have deteriorated & people are even more hidebound to whatever tourney standards are atm - wich is largely no Legends allowed - than they were. So the day something goes to Legends everyone bemoans that x can't be played anymore.
So step #1 is finding out where the people you'll be playing with stand concerning Legends. Their attitudes might indicate wether or not they're worth playing with.

Kaied wrote:
2) I am missing some errata that says "update all Rites of Battle to be Core-only"


No. The Legends PDF tells you right up front that these entries will not be receiving further support. As Errata is support....

3) It is actually a non-Core Captain reroll?


Essentially. If you get to use the model, just do what its rules tell you to do & things'll be fine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 06:10:22


 
   
Made in au
Calm Celestian




ccs wrote:
Lammia wrote:
Legends gets no support, so what you've got is a 8th vs 9th edition rules conflict.


There is no conflict. The rule does what it says it does.

Lammia wrote:
The easy and widely acceptable way would be to use Jarl of Fenris as it appears for Wolf Lords in the Codex instead of rites of battle.


Or, you know, just follow the printed rules for the model....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kaied wrote:

Basically, my questions:
1) Are some of my assumptions incorrect?


Partially on Legends being legal in most games. While you were gone things have deteriorated & people are even more hidebound to whatever tourney standards are atm - wich is largely no Legends allowed - than they were. So the day something goes to Legends everyone bemoans that x can't be played anymore.
So step #1 is finding out where the people you'll be playing with stand concerning Legends. Their attitudes might indicate wether or not they're worth playing with.

Kaied wrote:
2) I am missing some errata that says "update all Rites of Battle to be Core-only"


No. The Legends PDF tells you right up front that these entries will not be receiving further support. As Errata is support....

3) It is actually a non-Core Captain reroll?

Essentially. If you get to use the model, just do what its rules tell you to do & things'll be fine.
That will go a long way to ensuring a number of playgroups that allow Legends ban Legends.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 06:33:04


   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Rules are Written - Play with the full re-roll. Legends is basically like a 8th edition codex without a FAQ. Throughout the history of the game before the 8th reset, people used codexes from prior editions, and often got some legacy bonuses, but more often nerfs and odd interactions because of it.

Rules as Intended - Have you considered buying a new captain? There are plenty of brand new Primaris Captains on the GW webstore! If you want a HQ on a bike, check out the bike chaplain.

How I would Play it - He’s a captain. Captains under the modern codex only buff Core units. It seems common sense to me. Legends is not getting updated, but this seems the logical replacement that all captains got with the new codex. Feel free to use your old stuff, but let's figure out how it fits into the modern rules, as GW is not doing that for legacy stuff. But it’s not rocket science.

   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Nevelon wrote:
Rules are Written - Play with the full re-roll. Legends is basically like a 8th edition codex without a FAQ. Throughout the history of the game before the 8th reset, people used codexes from prior editions, and often got some legacy bonuses, but more often nerfs and odd interactions because of it.

Rules as Intended - Have you considered buying a new captain? There are plenty of brand new Primaris Captains on the GW webstore! If you want a HQ on a bike, check out the bike chaplain.

How I would Play it - He’s a captain. Captains under the modern codex only buff Core units. It seems common sense to me. Legends is not getting updated, but this seems the logical replacement that all captains got with the new codex. Feel free to use your old stuff, but let's figure out how it fits into the modern rules, as GW is not doing that for legacy stuff. But it’s not rocket science.


^
This. a big part of legends is because GW's not updating it, you should proably use some common sense house rules for some of that stuff if you're using legends. obviously this will be dependant on a local group willing to work with you on that

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




BrianDavion wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
Rules are Written - Play with the full re-roll. Legends is basically like a 8th edition codex without a FAQ. Throughout the history of the game before the 8th reset, people used codexes from prior editions, and often got some legacy bonuses, but more often nerfs and odd interactions because of it.

Rules as Intended - Have you considered buying a new captain? There are plenty of brand new Primaris Captains on the GW webstore! If you want a HQ on a bike, check out the bike chaplain.

How I would Play it - He’s a captain. Captains under the modern codex only buff Core units. It seems common sense to me. Legends is not getting updated, but this seems the logical replacement that all captains got with the new codex. Feel free to use your old stuff, but let's figure out how it fits into the modern rules, as GW is not doing that for legacy stuff. But it’s not rocket science.


^
This. a big part of legends is because GW's not updating it, you should proably use some common sense house rules for some of that stuff if you're using legends. obviously this will be dependant on a local group willing to work with you on that


Whilst I agree on principal, there is a chance (albeit laughable) that the bike lord is priced for the rules he carries. Downgrading him without considering the price of the unit pre vs post change is a consideration.
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Dudeface wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
Rules are Written - Play with the full re-roll. Legends is basically like a 8th edition codex without a FAQ. Throughout the history of the game before the 8th reset, people used codexes from prior editions, and often got some legacy bonuses, but more often nerfs and odd interactions because of it.

Rules as Intended - Have you considered buying a new captain? There are plenty of brand new Primaris Captains on the GW webstore! If you want a HQ on a bike, check out the bike chaplain.

How I would Play it - He’s a captain. Captains under the modern codex only buff Core units. It seems common sense to me. Legends is not getting updated, but this seems the logical replacement that all captains got with the new codex. Feel free to use your old stuff, but let's figure out how it fits into the modern rules, as GW is not doing that for legacy stuff. But it’s not rocket science.


^
This. a big part of legends is because GW's not updating it, you should proably use some common sense house rules for some of that stuff if you're using legends. obviously this will be dependant on a local group willing to work with you on that


Whilst I agree on principal, there is a chance (albeit laughable) that the bike lord is priced for the rules he carries. Downgrading him without considering the price of the unit pre vs post change is a consideration.


A valid point. But with the way GW yo-yo’s the points of things multiple times a year, he could easily be plus/minus 5-50 points from where he should be. How many revisions have there been since legends? Regardless of what his points were when published, if they reflect his value (with either buff aura) it would be blind luck.

I leads to bad situations. I’d rather not see people dredging legacy options looking for broken/underpriced stuff. But if someone wants to use an old model, I’d like them to pay a reasonable point cost for it. IIRC points have dropped a bit since legends was released, but honestly I’ve not looked that hard at it and crunched numbers.

IMHO they are out of sync enough that if someone wanted to use them, we should talk about it and check that the points/rules are fair. But that’s just my preference.


   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Looks like Captain on Bike with a similar loadout (Mastercrafted Boltgun, Lightning Claw) is 110 points and Wolf Lord on Bike is 93 points. Captain on Bike has a few more options, but the stat line is the same.

So probably not over-costed.
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Kaied wrote:
Looks like Captain on Bike with a similar loadout (Mastercrafted Boltgun, Lightning Claw) is 110 points and Wolf Lord on Bike is 93 points. Captain on Bike has a few more options, but the stat line is the same.

So probably not over-costed.


I totally forgot the SW angle.

Wolves have been wrapped up into the main Space Marine codex. I don’t own the SW supplement, so don’t know if it addresses the issue.

Technically, legends is adding units to the old SW codex, which is no longer valid. Makes your RAW argument a bit softer. And for units that don’t have a 1-to-1 corresponding unit (like wolf priests on bikes) adds a big wrinkle.

   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




Kaied wrote:
I have been out of Warhammer since 2003ish, and am looking to come back so I've been playing with Battlescribe to mock up some lists and get a feel for the game again.

I think I understand how the [legends] tag works (at least in regards to Battlescribe), basically it's an older version of a model that is no longer going to receive updates, but is still legal for most games.

I was looking at Wolf Lords, and noticed that Wolf Lord on Bike has the ability "Jarl of Fenris" which looks to be a Captain reroll, but not limited to Core. Going back to (what I think is the source material, but I could be wrong) the Space Wolves Legends pdf on the Warhammer Community website shows it has Rites of Battle instead of Jarl, but again no language limiting it to Core.

Basically, my questions:
1) Are some of my assumptions incorrect?
2) I am missing some errata that says "update all Rites of Battle to be Core-only"
3) It is actually a non-Core Captain reroll?


Doesn't matter. You're playing a legends unit which already means you're not doing organized play. You are free to adjust it (with your opponent) to fit whatever would make a better game for both of you.

RAW is more of a guideline with Legends because they can't be used competitively. If you only want to take it because it's a way to exploit legends to gain an ingame advantage...probably don't do that?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 11:46:26



 
   
 
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