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Am I missing something when it comes to the Sky Ray?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I've seen Sky Rays in a few Tau lists online, and I'm wondering... why? Am I missing something? If I compare the Sky Ray to a Ravager - another Heavy Support FLY Vehicle with subfaction benefits - I come away with:
  • The Ravager is faster (14" vs 12")
  • The Ravager is better in melee in a pinch (WS4+ vs WS6+, +1S/AP, can take gear for +3A, and ignores the Big Guns penalty).
  • The Ravager is less tough against light guns, but just as tough or tougher against anything with S8 and AP-2 or more
  • The Ravager is 20 points cheaper

  • In terms of damage output, a Ravager with three dark lances will average 7.33 damage against a T7/Sv3+ target. A Sky Ray firing at the same target with all six seeker missiles will average 1.55 damage - with two markerlights, which you obviously want, that jumps to 7.25 damage. With five markerlights, which is a tall order, it improves to 9.07 damage.

    And then next round the Ravager can shoot again for the same damage, and the Sky Ray, which is more expensive and has a worse body and required more set-up in terms of markerlights to use... is stuck plinking away with smart missiles. The Ravager's obviously a vehicle in a new codex, but it's not like it's a must-have for Drukhari, or anything. A Scorpius Disintegrator will turn out the same kind of first-turn damage against that target (average 7.22), at less cost with the same durability. It loses FLY, sure, but it doesn't need markerlights and it can keep firing even after using its Doctrina Imperative. Exorcist is pricier by 20 points, but hits around the same damage, comes with an invulnerable save/SMOKESCREEN, and - again - can keep firing.

    It seems like you could make Seeker missiles re-usable and the Sky Ray would be just fine, by comparison to its peers... which makes me wonder why it's seeing use now, when they're one-shot only. Is it just that the alpha strike is so bad it barely matters if you can shoot them more than once? Is it the value of the non-visible targeting? Or am I missing something?
       
    Made in au
    Calm Celestian




    NLoS weapons are very useful and most tanks are not going to outlast multiple turns. These are probably the 2 big things that Skyrays have in their favour.

    Are they *good*? Is something you can debate, but they're a interesting flex unit for a faction that's needed a new play approach.

       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    As a player that uses 3 skyrays a lot you are missing something, and it is hard to explain unless you play some games with them.

    Skyrays vs ravagers isn't a fair comparison because they are different factions completely. There is no comparison.

    But t1 I run 3 skyrays and force my opponent into a tough corner right from the start. Spend time and resources on a unit that can only do the "heavy shooting " once or just let them and then try and ignore them. Also once they do fire those bs3 missiles off (to be fair they should be hitting on 2's rerolling 1's when you shoot them) then you got gun boats with bs3 burst cannons, 2 marker lights, that can move and shoot just fine, and can move block easily to buy you more time.

    A sky ray's value is very hard to math hammer but in every game I have taken them in 9th they have done wonders for me. Honestly I feel the devil fish of fury type list is so much better than a battlesuit list at this point. You save so many pts not needing drones that the free burst does do everything you want. And all the different boats floating around out there (I run 3 sky rays, 2 hammerheads, and 2 devil fish with breachers) it makes your opponent have to play a type of game they just don't expect vs tau. Add vespids and phiranas in for fast moving objective grabbers, and focus on making sure the enemy obsec isn't on the objectives you actually want to hold.... its all quite doable. And for me I play se'scea, the extra options for marker lite shenanigans and reroll is totally worth it.
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




    Lammia wrote:
    NLoS weapons are very useful and most tanks are not going to outlast multiple turns. These are probably the 2 big things that Skyrays have in their favour.
    Yeah, I'd been comparing them to direct-fire guns, often ones with half or two-thirds the range. Comparing six seeker missiles with two markerlights to similar indirect fire guns, like an Earthshaker Cannon or Whirlwind Missiles, makes it look much more attractive. An Earthshaker against, say, a Leman Russ is landing an average of 4.4 damage. The Skyray is landing 5.4D, by comparison.

    And that's a good comparison for the Earthshaker, against a target that doesn't have 5 markerlights. Against the T7/3+ target from the OP, the Earthshaker's still landing 4.4D, and the Seekers are landing 7.25D, or 9D with 5 markers. It's a lot heftier than its actual competitors... but then, they can keep firing after, and don't need the set-up of 2-5 markerlight hits beforehand to actually do it. Hm.

    Azuza001 wrote:
    As a player that uses 3 skyrays a lot you are missing something, and it is hard to explain unless you play some games with them.
    Interesting! Thank you for your insight.

    I hadn't considered the "defense" of Skyrays being one-hit wonders - the fact that the opponent is aware of this too, and therefore reluctant to "waste" resources on them. I was also obviously underestimating how useful they could be post-Seekers, if only to harass and obstruct.

    I think I must be playing on boards with the wrong kind of terrain, or my group must have the wrong kind of meta - generally speaking, in my experience there's been barely any difference between a VEHICLE with a 72" range and one with a 36/48" range. On a Combat Patrol board the Ravager can always be in range, and even on a Strike Force board there's only a fairly narrow band where it can't be.

    Similarly, ignoring LoS would have been little more than a neat trick for most of games I've played (especially with markerlights still requiring them). With a FLY move of 14", getting LoS for the Ravager has never been a problem; worst case scenario, moving to get LoS means it gets shot back by a survivor and dies. In that case it can't shoot again... but neither can the Skyray, so no big deal. At worst I'm still getting the same number of shooting rounds out of it, to similar effect. At best it survives to blast something else.

    (my group clearly needs to start taking more anti-tank, as our vehicles seem a lot more survivable than the meta suggests)
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Ignoring los? Seekers missiles don't ignore los.

    Against dark eldar raiders are t6 and 4+/5++, these are numbers that are actually pretty easy to deal with. A skyray can definitely deal with a raider one on one between its missiles and its gundrone burst firepower. Smart missiles are the ones that ignore los but I never have found the need for them.

    Having said all that if your having trouble with dark eldar as Tau I won't lie, it's not an easy fight but its no where near the worst we could face. Burst weapons do wonders to their infantry and small vehicles, even breachers up close can make raiders or ravagers hurt. A small group of Burst crisis suits with a commander using command and control node will tear a raider apart.

    Myself I run 3 skyray, 2 Hammerhead, and 2 devil fish. I run ions on both hammerheads, burst drones on as many vehicles that can take them, and under fast attack a squad of 2 phiranas with fusion and 2 vespid teams. Then it's just a matter of filling in breachers/strike teams as needed, putting Cadre fireblades in as hq's, and maybe some Marksman as Elites. Any extra points go to giving vehicles Seeker missiles to just put that idea of my 1st turn will be absolutely devastating so you better hide well.

    It's worked well the 6 or so games I have played it in 9th, I haven't lost yet vs dark eldar, black templars, white scars, or death guard. But everything works well together and the efficiency that comes from those skyrays is key. That's just how tau seem to work at the moment.
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




    Azuza001 wrote:
    Ignoring los? Seekers missiles don't ignore los.
    Hm. Looks like someone in the group's been mixing up rules from past editions... I'll need to have a word, lol
       
     
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